Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 19:17:31 GMT
I listen quite a lot to the radio and so far, in the portable DAB world, I haven't been too impressed since with these devices, one move and the signal drops out.
So if you go walking down the street with one attached it's not good.
They use the headphone wire as an aerial and unless you're in a strong area, it just goes on and off.
The best I've used so far has been the Pure 1500 and it's loud. The biggest problem is its sensitivity and signal drop out.
The next model that appeared a while back to replace it was the Pure 2500. Again, very good sounding for DAB but it has both an advantage and a disadvantage.
The sensitivity is way up on the 1500. In fact, I was able to use it in the car attached to my car system today and it remained pretty much locked on to the station it was receiving over a 12 mile journey at 70mph.
It will also receive the other DAB standard other than the poxy UK one which gives better quality abroad. The UK ought to switch but it would cost too much.
The downside is this bloody EU thing where the output has been limited. It's been set by the wonderful EU way too low to drive any decent headphone. It's just about ok on 16 ohm iems. (just) On a headphone proper - it's just too low so I have to use an amp with it which can be a pain mobile.
I really wish that the EU people gave us the CHOICE to use this damned volume limit. I'm 58 and can still hear fine in spite of my job. Who do they think they are imposing this on us all? I think there should be a campaign to get rid of it.
The wonderful Sansa gets around it by allowing us to set it for 'the rest of the world' so the limiter stops working but there's no way to do this on the Pure 2500. It is such a pain.
Apart from that, this is a really good DAB radio. More sensitive than the old 1500 but quieter in volume.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 20, 2012 4:34:18 GMT
Ha, ha, Singapore already closed down all it's DAB stations after last Dec 2011 and relying entirely on FM. Even BBC World Service in Singapore is on FM stereo only. I think it's about time they closed this dreaded format all over the world because of it's limitations as what you had said. Anyway, the sound is not better the FM stereo. FM still sounds great!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 5:12:34 GMT
Well, the use of stupidly low bit rate and cramming as much as possible onto the bandwidth affected the quality of the signal for music a great deal. It's ok for speech. If they hadn't been so greedy and put the bit rate up, it may have done better.
Also, there aren't many home radios around for DAB. Pure do or did one. The rest are all transistor radios so it was never aimed at hi fi people really.
In UK, the compression they use is also pretty poor whereas in other parts of the world they use an aac format. We're stuck in this country with MP2 I think it is. We were going to upgrade it but never bothered because people didn't readily switch over to DAB.
I don't use the radio for 'serious' listening anyway. Mostly speech actually.
The only thing I hated about FM was the hug aerial that I used to turn round on the roof. A big yagi beam on a rotator so I could hear quality radio. (And the quality was a joke there too). Avoiding reflections etc. I used to be over the top about radio.
Now, I just stick a portable thing in my pocket!! Portable FM units are also dreadful. They whoosh all over the place and hiss like a snake. They also jump from stereo to mono if you move in a weak area. This new Pure thing seems to hold on pretty well. In fact, I'm now thinking about sticking a digital radio in the car since it does actually work. (Hopefully with an FM option)
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 20, 2012 5:31:41 GMT
Oh, in Singapore, since it's a small island, the FM is very good even on portable like the HP. Only thing I don't like is the compression rate is quite high to make sure the bandwith can accomodate many stations. Between DAB and FM, FM can go much further before no sound. DAB will have no sound sooner since digital cannot accomodate errors in transmission. Same for terrestial DVB-T2 broadcast.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 7:08:55 GMT
That's actually not strictly true. It's also to do with the frequency that the signal is broadcast at.
DAB is sent on a higher radio frequence and so doesn go 'through' things so easily. It needs to be more in 'line of sight'. FM is broadcast lower down so it's a bit better in that respect.
In the early days in the UK, I was a friend of one of the engineers in charge of implementing DAB here. He was a bit miffed that it was too high up and would cause those kinds of problems.
In tests, on the same frequency to send them, they work pretty much the same.
The biggest difference was FM fading and DAB going off!!
It's a shame in a way. The way it has been set up has made it less successful than it deserves.
If DAB was broadcast at 320 on a lower frequency, you'd love it. It would be hard to distinguish from CD and there's the problem ...... they didn't want it to match CD!!!!!! Piracy would be common if it was, so things were limited.
For good FM in the UK, a beam is needed on the roof in order to reduce noise or else you're listening to snakes with your music. In fact, you still get snakes on a good aerial but that suited people since you'd be more inclined to buy CD's to lose it!!!
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 20, 2012 10:51:00 GMT
The biggest difference was FM fading and DAB going off!! That's what I mean can go further before no sound. Because of that alone and the radio can be heard via the internet too, DAB was scrapped in favour of FM in Singapore for those on the move and portable. If DAB was broadcast at 320 on a lower frequency, you'd love it. It would be hard to distinguish from CD and there's the problem ...... they didn't want it to match CD!!!!!! Piracy would be common if it was, so things were limited. There is no way that they will broadcast at 320 as at the norm of 128, if we are lucky, that is about 3 times the bandwidth needed. It will cost the station a bomb to do that. Being commercial stations, not like BBC, where is the profit for the shareholders? Anyway, piracy wouldn't be the main issue as the people can easily get 320 mp3 from the internet "free", btw. It's the bandwidth cost that's giving the stations problem. For good FM in the UK, a beam is needed on the roof in order to reduce noise or else you're listening to snakes with your music. In fact, you still get snakes on a good aerial but that suited people since you'd be more inclined to buy CD's to lose it!!! I think for home use, most will have that beam. It's not very expensive to implement. Only that for diy you have to be spiderman for the day. Also, if we implement properly, can also have free stations from the neighbouring countries around us too via the airwaves. Definitely not for DAB.
|
|
elysion
Been here a while!
Team Anti M$ AND Facebook.
contra torrentem
Posts: 2,375
|
Post by elysion on Apr 20, 2012 10:58:39 GMT
I have a Cowon D2+ portable audio player. It is capable of receiving FM, DAB and DAB+ radio.
DAB/DAB+ coverage in Switerland is rather high already, but a lot of radio stations send also in FM.
I've made mixed experiences with DAB/DAB+. Portable reception is really not a strength of DAB/DAB+ IMO. It's very typical for DAB/DAB+ that you have a "good" signal which instantly disappears. You never have a degradation of the quality until the signal gets too weak. At this point, the reception is lost instantly because the error correction isn't able to handle the weak signal anymore.
FM is the total opposite. If the signal gets weaker, quality drops depending on the quality of the signal. Unless the reception is totally lost, you'll hear still the music. Only the quality is degraded. FM radio is IMO better for portable radio listening. It's a lot better to have only a degraded reception than to lose the reception completely.
I guess the Cowon D2+ (or one of his successors) is still the best DAB/DAB+ solution for portable use. Quality of the reception is very depending on used headphones though. The most important factor seems to be the cable of the headphones. I've had a lot of problems with the coiled cable of my Beyer "Pro" series 'phones (DT 770/990 Pro's), but was very successful with the steel cable of the HD25-1/II's. Claus has also suggested that the steel rods of some Superlux 'phones could be very good antennas. I did not verify that, but at least the steel cable of the HD25-1/II's is a good match. Since the HD25-1/II's are great mobile headphones, it seems to be a very good combo. The output power of the Cowon's isn't bad also (no amp needed, at least for the HD25-1/II's).
I'm still not very fond of DAB/DAB+. Beside the problems with portable reception, most radio stations don't use the possible max. bitrate. So FM is often really superior in quality.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 20, 2012 11:07:08 GMT
It's a lot better to have only a degraded reception than to lose the reception completely. Also, if we switch to mono, the coverage distance goes further. I'm not sure about DAB though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 11:11:44 GMT
DAB is never likely to achieve wide acceptance unless they can find a way to vastly improve reception in cars. Alex
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 14:12:33 GMT
The worst thing about this Pure DAB is the volume limiter. The reception is super. I literally used it in the car at 70 MPH for 12 miles with no problem whatsoever. No drop out at all.
I think it's getting better with regards to coverage but I don't understand why the UK didn't go for DAB+ which has better quality sound as well.
Radio 3 in the UK uses a higher bit rate. (Classical Music)
This portable is so good, I was thinking about sticking an aerial on the car for DAB.
The problem is not the DAB. It's the frequency at which it is sent on the carrier. FM goes out on 89 - 106 Mghz. DAB goes out on a much higher frequency so it is inherantly more directional. If only we put it lower down, it may hang on better.
However, either more transmitters are going up or this radio is very sensitive.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 20, 2012 23:55:52 GMT
However, either more transmitters are going up or this radio is very sensitive. That's another cost to the DAB radio stations. Also, they cannot put up large attennae anywhere as those are controlled by the local Telecom Authority. They must get approval and another headache to them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 8:42:16 GMT
I've also had mixed experiences but this Pure radio seems to hold on to the signal a lot better than most others I've had.
The trouble comparing it with FM is that they are broadcast on different frequencies which react to obstacles in different ways. Had the governments allowed DAB to be sent on a lower frequency, the drop out wouldn't occur.
FM is sent on a lower frequency so it's less prone to drop out. DAB would do the same if sent on the same frequency.
The towers are a puzzle because there are already towers in place for mobile phones. Installing repeaters on the phone masts would be a lot cheaper since they don't erect towers just for DAB Chong.
DAB+ which is what you have in Europe Christian is a better form of compression and one that the UK should have adopted. We're still using MP2 which isn't the best at low rates. Radio 3 in the UK broadcasts at a higher rate and it doesn't sound too bad actually. The silence of DAB is a bonus with orchestral music.
The biggest problem is that people aren't buying the transistor radios in the numbers that they envisaged and imo, it's nothing to do with quality. Also, Alex is spot on - cars need to be able to receive DAB reliably for it to really take off. That way, DAB would have more support.
They were going to switch off the FM transmitters here but not now. Maybe it's postponed.
Personally, I'd like to see DAB+ adopted here and a higher bit rate and less stations to allow for the bit rate.
I also think that Hi Fi people turn their noses up at it just as they did at the start of MP3. (Some still do)
Technology will allow a move over to it full time eventually I think. I have no FM radios here at all. I used to have a Sony receiver, but I really got fed up with the big aerial on the roof. I know that there are those daft little ring things that can work but multi-path distortion is a joke with them.
It's really quite funny how we all forget about multi-path artifacts and hiss on FM which is never alleviated in reality; even with a large aerial and good receiver. (It's masked by music) Those are the two things that are knocked on the head with DAB and once the masts are up, receivers are more sensitive and (Hopefully, but I don't think so) bandwidths are increased, then DAB would work really well - especially if broadcast on a lower frequency.
The Pure static receivers are really very good. The only limiting thing with them is the bit rate, but R3 isn't bad at all; especially when you turn the 'compression' off and get a wider dynamic range.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 21, 2012 18:03:04 GMT
Actually those towers are usually controlled by some parties that are also into broadcast. I still remember very clearly here locally that there used to be only one Telco and the reception is always good. When other Telcos came in and start sharing the same towers, the original Telco reception was still very good but other Telcos seemed to suffer from poor reception until they also erect their own towers. The writng is always on the wall it seems. FM technology has other ways to reduce noise. Remember Dolby FM? It didn't take off in a big way as people don't consider radio as hifi enough. Just background music and public announcements. Same for DAB. But DAB seems to suffer more problems than FM. In my country, DAB was already scrapped in favour for FM stereo and we are talking of middle of last century technology here. Even BBC World Service is still in FM stereo locally and not DAB. There is no way the frequency can be dropped as those lower bandwidths are already occupied by other usage like FM, TV, telephone, military, scientific and other commercials. Same like our Wifi is stuck at 2.4GHz and 5Ghz.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 18:23:25 GMT
FM TV is being turned off in this country as we speak!! Totally digital.
I don't think it's the digital part that is the problem. It's the transmission.
Mind you, the bit rate needs to be increased.
Transistor type radios like the Pures work really well in the home. Mobile is another thing though.
The digital car radios are catching up though. (so are these little portable units)
I do think that a lot of the radio stations pump out crap as well though.
I mainly listen to R3, R4, World Service, R4 extra, planet Rock. The last two are only available on digital in the UK.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 21, 2012 18:37:57 GMT
FM TV is being turned off in this country as we speak!! Totally digital. Quite surprising digital TV don't have the same magnitude of problems as DAB. Singapore is also going full steam towards HD and even 3D digital TV. Maybe Digital TV had learnt some "tricks" from the DAB saga. I mainly listen to R3, R4, World Service, R4 extra, planet Rock. The last two are only available on digital in the UK. Btw, are those available in internet radio. Any url for me to hear them thru the computer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 18:53:33 GMT
Digital tv is also quite patchy in the UK. Coverage isn't 100%
DAB is as good actually as far as coverage goes. It's moving around in a car that causes problems and that's not really due to DAB. It's the frequency it's sent out at.
I don't know what the problems would have been with DAB where you are, Chong unless there's a big mountain in the middle. Then again, if there is, you'd only need one transmitter on a small island.
Those stations are available on the Internet.
Radio 3 is a high quality orchestral/classical station. Radio 4 for plays and discussion. World Service you must know. Radio 4 Extra plays old radio stuff from 50's and 60's along with other talk stuff and Planet Rock plays 'classic' rock stuff.
The BBC website will have them all except Planet Rock.
Mainly talk so DAB is fine for it.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 21, 2012 19:01:04 GMT
Actually, in the UK, is DAB receivable in the Tube?
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 21, 2012 19:27:42 GMT
Here, have something from Singapore in reciprocal: www.mediacorpradio.sg/hearsee.htmQuality wise about the same for stations in Singapore and UK at the highest quality thru the internet.
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 21, 2012 19:43:40 GMT
So for those reading here, care to share your countries' internet radio urls too? Thanks.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 22:13:48 GMT
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 22, 2012 0:53:28 GMT
Excellent! Where are Australia and the US?
|
|
pagan
Been here a while!
Posts: 512
|
Post by pagan on Apr 22, 2012 5:29:52 GMT
|
|
XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
Posts: 5,689
|
Post by XTRProf on Apr 22, 2012 15:50:35 GMT
Great! Now more international although not completely international yet.
|
|