Well, Can We Discuss Bass Interconnects

[XTRProf]

Yeah, I know it's kind of silly. But do you guys have any favourite ICs for subwoofers. Yup, the refinement after the basic. I saw some Hifi mags there are in fact sub ICs. Sound strange but I'm not planning another Alien trilogy.

[Deleted]

Well.... YES we can

Electrons travel a few cm/hour.
A bass drum from a rock band is stationary.
A bass drum in a fanfare is moving around at maximum a few km/hour when walking around but doesn't need electrons to follow it as it is not amplified, and if amplified it would need a VERY long cord if the amplifier is stationary.
When the amp is also moving the cable can be lots shorter so the electrons don't need to travel that long to reach the other end of the cable.
The electric bass guitar player moves around on the stage but most of them are confined to a small space so don't travel that much.
Luckily for the electrons so they can move in their syrupy way without too much extra delay.
Therefore the electrons don't have a hard time keeping up with the bass player.
Your subwoofer is also stationary so the electrons need to be there in time.
So in essence the conductors of the IC must be thin for a higher speed.
So for a bass to sound fast you need thin wires and for a slow bass you can use thicker wires.
The electrons in the insulators travel even slower and those at the edge of the copper are travelling slower as they are slowed down by the insulator materials.
This is called the skin effect which is of great importance of subwoofer signals as they are mighty fast compared to a stationary electron in a car battery.
The battery itself is stationary in the car but the car moves around and when applying brakes or speeding up the electrons lag a bit.
So to use a subwoofer in a car you need very thick cables so the electrons aren't shaking around too much.

So to make this story not too long you need a suitable interlink.
The quality will depend on the amount of money you are willing to spend and how much you believe in the owners/reviewers opinions, or the story of manufacturers or sellers of these cables have to tell you.
The profit manufacturers/sellers make depends on the production costs minus operational costs and their selling price.
The amount of money they make is determined by lots of factors of which an important portion is the amount sold and the profit margin.

In short... the choice of IC depends on what you believe is relevant.
This can be based on 'religion' or the trust one puts in their own or other peoples ears and the price you are willing to spend.
Don't forget the looks of the cable they appear to be important in the religion part.

[Deleted]

Oooooh....... You're on form Frans!!!! ;D

I really enjoyed that. The very thought of a bass player moving!!! ;D

[funk1969]

Aha...

[XTRProf]

In fact, you guys should be the first starting this thread as bass is never enough for the K701.

Hmm, bass .............






The new frontier and we are being sucked into the bass black hole ...............

[Deleted]

YMCA as heard through a K701.

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 8:23:32 GMT @solderdude said:

Well.... YES we can

Electrons travel a few cm/hour.
A bass drum from a rock band is stationary.
A bass drum in a fanfare is moving around at maximum a few km/hour when walking around but doesn't need electrons to follow it as it is not amplified, and if amplified it would need a VERY long cord if the amplifier is stationary.
When the amp is also moving the cable can be lots shorter so the electrons don't need to travel that long to reach the other end of the cable.
The electric bass guitar player moves around on the stage but most of them are confined to a small space so don't travel that much.
Luckily for the electrons so they can move in their syrupy way without too much extra delay.
Therefore the electrons don't have a hard time keeping up with the bass player.
Your subwoofer is also stationary so the electrons need to be there in time.
So in essence the conductors of the IC must be thin for a higher speed.
So for a bass to sound fast you need thin wires and for a slow bass you can use thicker wires.
The electrons in the insulators travel even slower and those at the edge of the copper are travelling slower as they are slowed down by the insulator materials.
This is called the skin effect which is of great importance of subwoofer signals as they are mighty fast compared to a stationary electron in a car battery.
The battery itself is stationary in the car but the car moves around and when applying brakes or speeding up the electrons lag a bit.
So to use a subwoofer in a car you need very thick cables so the electrons aren't shaking around too much.

So to make this story not too long you need a suitable interlink.
The quality will depend on the amount of money you are willing to spend and how much you believe in the owners/reviewers opinions, or the story of manufacturers or sellers of these cables have to tell you.
The profit manufacturers/sellers make depends on the production costs minus operational costs and their selling price.
The amount of money they make is determined by lots of factors of which an important portion is the amount sold and the profit margin.

In short... the choice of IC depends on what you believe is relevant.
This can be based on 'religion' or the trust one puts in their own or other peoples ears and the price you are willing to spend.
Don't forget the looks of the cable they appear to be important in the religion part.

Wah, bass technico extremo .............. Bravo! Hmm, let me tryico to bettico that .............


Well.... YES we SURELY can

Electrons travel a few cm/hour In Objectivity And Not In Subjectivity.
A bass drum from a rock band is NEVER stationary But Moving Back And Forth In The Membrane Else No Bass To Talk About.
A bass drum in a fanfare is moving around at maximum a few km/hour when walking around but doesn't need electrons to follow it as it is not amplified, and if amplified it would need a VERY long cord if the amplifier is stationary And That's What Is Happening At Concert And Studio Setting Of The Pro XLR.
When the amp is also moving the cable can be lots shorter so the electrons don't need to travel that long to reach the other end of the cable. But Still The Same XLR Whether We Like it or Not.
The electric bass guitar player moves around on the stage but most of them are confined to a small space so don't travel that much. And That Applies To The Good Old Days Of Frans And Us.
Luckily for the electrons so they can move in their syrupy way without too much extra delay. Oh, That Will Be Boring One Note bass, Btw.
Therefore the electrons don't have a hard time keeping up with the bass player. And That Will Be Distortion According To Frans.
Your subwoofer is also stationary so the electrons need to be there in time. Unfortunately, In A Boogie Wonderland Style Until Recently For The Subs.
So in essence the conductors of the IC must be thin for a higher speed.
So for a bass to sound fast you need thin wires and for a slow bass you can use thicker wires. And Welcome Back The Good Old True Frans ...........
The electrons in the insulators travel even slower and those at the edge of the copper are travelling slower as they are slowed down by the insulator materials. And They Always Skive At Those Frequency and Should Be Sacked Immediately In the Style Of My Boss With Frans' Latest Technico Objectivity. You See, We Have The Theory Of Relativity From Our Genius Prof Einstein And We Now Have Nutty Prof Frans' The Theory of ObjectivtyTo Rollover Einstein In His Grave To Win A Nobel Prize.
This is called the skin effect which is of great importance of subwoofer signals as they are mighty fast compared to a stationary electron in a car battery. Yeah, Our Brains Electrons To Objectivity As Well. There is No Such A Thing As Subjectivity Electrons. Only Objectivity Electrons and That's The New Nobel Prize For Our Xtremo Nutty Prof. Bingo!
The battery itself is stationary in the car but the car moves around and when applying brakes or speeding up the electrons lag a bit.
So to use a subwoofer in a car you need very thick cables so the electrons aren't shaking around too much. That's the New Objectivity Electrons proudly presented For The Nobel Prize. Bravo, It's Clearly Very Righter Now!

So to make this story IN A Nutshell - Use Your Ears And Values To Listen To Affordable Quality Interlinks And Nobody Else. The Profit Margin That Is Paramount To IC Manufacturers/Sellers Is Always Linked To Revenue. So Trust Your Hifi "Religion" To Be Affordably Relevant.

Hmm, after analysing, it frighteningly seems to be what subjectivists are preaching all along. No specs at least. Really, welcome back Frans to the subjectivists world.

[pcourtney1]

very happy with my QED QONTOUR Reference after buying it from Musicraft 2 years ago

see post 11

www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/subwoofer-cable-qed-or-chord-crimson

I have a Yamaha RX-V1065 amp connected to a Yamaha YST-SW800 sub, and the QED really made a difference, so much more refined, they say ic's are all the same, but I auditioned about 10 different ic's and this was the best value for money one to my ears by a long way !

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 12:05:18 GMT @iancraig10 said:

YMCA as heard through a K701.

Arrgghhhh, Didn't Frans wrote trust your ears in summary? Quick change your IC without your wife knowing.

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 13:06:07 GMT pcourtney1 said:

very happy with my QED QONTOUR Reference after buying it from Musicraft 2 years ago

see post 11

www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/subwoofer-cable-qed-or-chord-crimson

I have a Yamaha RX-V1065 amp connected to a Yamaha YST-SW800 sub, and the QED really made a difference, so much more refined, they say ic's are all the same, but I auditioned about 10 different ic's and this was the best value for money one to my ears by a long way !

Thanks and noted as it's not only Boogie Wonderland already arrived but also Arrgghhhh, Woo, Scratch, Scratch and Rattles ..........

Ok, back on a serious note. Have a wonderful and pleasant weekend everybody! Enjoy your music .........

[Deleted]

without your wife knowing.

Now, that would take some doing!!

[xerxes]

My sub uses a high level input that has a speakon connector at the sub and attaches to the speaker outputs of the amp. The original was ridiculously long, so I made shorter one using some three core mains cable.

I thought that high level/speaker input was better for music?

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 14:14:55 GMT xerxes said:

My sub uses a high level input that has a speakon connector at the sub and attaches to the speaker outputs of the amp. The original was ridiculously long, so I made shorter one using some three core mains cable.

I think you should use better copper than mains copper. Use OCC Copper. Not that expensive from DIY Hifi shops.

Mar 31, 2012 14:14:55 GMT xerxes said:

I thought that high level/speaker input was better for music?

That's what Rel says. But to me, the low level input will be better. Why? Because the signal has not gone thru the speaker amps yet and is more pure. Anyway, for a planned triamp like mine going thru a XO, it must be done thru the low level signal way.

[Crispy]

very happy with my QED QONTOUR Reference

Chong, I am also very happy with my QED Genesis Revelation speaker cables that I use for my Subs, Speakon connector one end and Airloc bananas the other end
www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-genesis-revelation-speaker-cable-p-825.html

[xerxes]

That's what Rel says. But to me, the low level input will be better.

To be honest, I have no choice. I have a stereo pre-power amp set-up with no signal processing; there's no sub out option.

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 15:02:14 GMT Crispy said:

very happy with my QED QONTOUR Reference

Chong, I am also very happy with my QED Genesis Revelation speaker cables that I use for my Subs, Speakon connector one end and Airloc bananas the other end
www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-genesis-revelation-speaker-cable-p-825.html

Oh, again another QED, the best VFM. A favourite brand too amongst the British Hifi mags. Noted and unnoted as it's not a IC.

Thanks anyway.

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 16:02:52 GMT xerxes said:

To be honest, I have no choice. I have a stereo pre-power amp set-up with no signal processing; there's no sub out option.

Me too! So just use 2 Y adapters (L & R) from pre to power and connect the 2 sub ICs (L & R) from the 2 Y adapters to the 2 subs until I get or make the XO. Yeah, for your case, L and R to the summing inputs in sub active amp if you have only one sub.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2012 23:36:25 GMT XTRProf said:

Mar 31, 2012 16:02:52 GMT xerxes said:

To be honest, I have no choice. I have a stereo pre-power amp set-up with no signal processing; there's no sub out option.

Me too! So just use 2 Y adapters (L & R) from pre to power and connect the 2 sub ICs (L & R) from the Y adapters to the sub until I get or make the XO. Yeah, L and R to the summing inputs in sub active amp if you have only one sub.

Using 2 parallel output cables from the preamp may degrade a little the L and R channel SQ.

[XTRProf]

Mar 31, 2012 23:43:23 GMT @sandyk said:

Using 2 parallel output cables from the preamp may degrade a little the L and R channel SQ.

Should be and technically be but not noticeable so far. In fact, SQ goes up quite a lot overall with the 2 subs in parallel. Well, that's not ideal until I get or make the XO. Noted.

Btw, a high input impedance buffer to one side (maybe sub amp) can improve that? IAm I right? Well, temporary until the XO is acquired as I have a MF V3 buffer not being used.

[rowuk]

Considering that moving the subwoofer or our seating position only a couple of millimetres can change the standing wave pattern in the room dramatically and thus the deep bass frequency response that we hear by over 10-20dB, I personally would favor LONG, low resistance interconnects and at least 3 differently placed sources (subwoofers or satellites with deep bass capability) in the room for ULF. The multiple sources insure that ALL of the low frequency nodes get excited and this generally leads to a much better pressurization of the room. If your room is as big as a concert hall, you may need alternative strategies. The "sound" below 30 Hz is determined by the integration in the system and physically in the room, not some microscopic audiophile factor in the cable. As far as distortion goes, remember that the "terrible" third harmonic distortion is a frequency 3 times the fundemental. If the subwoofer is used below 30 Hz, third harmonic distortion would only be applicable for frequencies below 10-12 Hz. As those frequencies do not represent "musical" content, I think that higher order distortion is probably negligible anyway - assuming proper subwoofer design.

I often wonder why there is so much interest in infrasonics with no discussion of the (very difficult) integration into the frequencies where TONE is generated. There are thousands of pages of ULF garbage (including manufacturers ads and magazine reviews) on the web and very little real info that leads to better sound. I guess if the goal is to shit your pants, the recipe for cables becomes "increase the size to toilet drain dimensions".

I use standard professional non boutique quality microphone cable with low impedance and capacitance for all of my interconnects. They are essentially immune to microphonics, well shielded and are mechanically sound as well as environmentally neutral. That should insure good performance for many years to come. It is the job of properly designed electronics to provide a suitable interface for the use case. If cables make a "big" difference, the electronic design is shit and needs to be fixed - unless the real purpose of the design was to sell cables.

My recommendation for subwoofer interconnects: shop.klotz-ais.com/cgi-bin/quickorder/lshop.cgi?action=showrub&wkid=1376822344-3688&ls=e&nc=&rubnum=pro.audio.bulk.mic&artnum=&file=&gesamt_zeilen=&p8=
They are available in decorator colours to insure that they are noticed by audiophools.

The "budget" version with 60pF/metre means that you can calculate the ultrasonic rolloff for the subwoofer based on the chosen length and input impedance of the subwoofer amp using the following formula:


This means if we optimise the output impedance of the source (preamp) and input impedance of the target (subwoofer amp), the cables stay out of the way!