Considerations To Change Tweeters To Ribbon/Ring?

[XTRProf]

What must I know if I wanted to convert my current speaker tweeters to Ribbon or Ring type to improve the performance other than size to fit the holes. I'm not saying that current sound is bad. In fact, it's good bordering to very good with current modes.

[pagan]

This site may give you a bit more info about speaker building and all the extra stuff that goes with it..
www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/

Whether the replacement tweeter will fit is probably the least of the concerns.

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 5:11:42 GMT pagan said:

This site may give you a bit more info about speaker building and all the extra stuff that goes with it..
www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/

Whether the replacement tweeter will fit is probably the least of the concerns.

Oh, thanks very much. It seems we don't have to be concerned with other speaker parameters like TS, etc but just the crossover point for tweeters, right? Yeah, unlike putting in a mid or sub drivers.

[Deleted]

Mar 18, 2012 5:41:40 GMT XTRProf said:

Mar 18, 2012 5:11:42 GMT pagan said:

This site may give you a bit more info about speaker building and all the extra stuff that goes with it..
www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/

Whether the replacement tweeter will fit is probably the least of the concerns.

Oh, thanks very much. It seems we don't have to be concerned with other speaker parameters like TS, etc but just the crossover point for tweeters, right? Yeah, unlike putting in a mid or sub drivers.

You will also need to match sensitivities with suitable series and parallel R with the tweeters if necessary.

[rowuk]

Ribbon tweeters are not inherently "better" than other types, the same applies to ring radiators.

If you are looking to REPLACE your current tweeters, getting a good match involves a whole new crossover, not just switching out. The nearfield response that most of us can measure (with programs like ARTA) do not say much about the power response than actually reaches our ears. There all of the room reflections mess up the measurements.

If it were my money, I would just cross the ribbon/present tweeter over at 10,000Hz and perhaps gain a slight advantage in that last octave without messing up the present balance in the midrange.

Actually, if it were my money, I would probably just build or buy new speakers instead of patching old ones.

[Deleted]

Robin
I have a pair of ribbon tweeters laying around that supposedly go to 45kHz. I was thinking of simply crossing over at 18kHZ and mount them on top of my speakers in a small case, and angle them appropiately.
Alex

[mrarroyo]

Alex, I have seen various manufacturers in the USA do as you described. It makes sense to mount on top in their own case, specially if you do not care for the sound.

[Deleted]

What must I know if I wanted to convert my current speaker tweeters to Ribbon or Ring type to improve the performance other than size to fit the holes.

a: impedance
b: efficiency
c: minimum required XO freq
d: Filter slope 1st, 2nd or 3rd order (6, 12 or 18 dB/octave) and which slope is minimal required/XO freq.
e: If it needs a correction filter (boucherot) or if the old tweeter has it and needs changing or removal.
e: dispersion pattern (if you want it to have similar behavior)
f: plane of radiance origin (if the original is recessed or slightly protruding opposite the other speakers)

Also it needs to 'fit' the other drivers.
Sometimes mounting a 'fast' tweeter that doesn't 'connect' well with risetimes/behavior of the other drivers it doesn't become a 'whole'.
Don't know how to word it otherwise.

Like Robin already stated simply replacinga driver by a 'better' (read different performing) one may backfire but could just as easily improve sound.

Good and cheap ring/band tweeters: HiVi
www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=9&sid=52

I use the RT1L b.t.w.

[pagan]

Mar 18, 2012 10:47:45 GMT @solderdude said:

What must I know if I wanted to convert my current speaker tweeters to Ribbon or Ring type to improve the performance other than size to fit the holes.

a: impedance
b: efficiency
c: minimum required XO freq
d: Filter slope 1st, 2nd or 3rd order (6, 12 or 18 dB/octave) and which slope is minimal required/XO freq.
e: If it needs a correction filter (boucherot) or if the old tweeter has it and needs changing or removal.
e: dispersion pattern (if you want it to have similar behavior)
f: plane of radiance origin (if the original is recessed or slightly protruding opposite the other speakers)

Also it needs to 'fit' the other drivers.
Sometimes mounting a 'fast' tweeter that doesn't 'connect' well with risetimes/behavior of the other drivers it doesn't become a 'whole'.
Don't know how to word it otherwise.

Like Robin already stated simply replacinga driver by a 'better' (read different performing) one may backfire but could just as easily improve sound.

Good and cheap ring/band tweeters: HiVi
www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=9&sid=52

I use the RT1L b.t.w.

XTRProf
I believe solderdude said it better....

If it's a matter of, if your tweeters had blown up, it's a different case.
If they still working ok, and the speakers are a decent quality, then leave them alone and use them as a reference and try to build new speakers.
That site I linked to has a whole mass of info on different aspects of speaker building.

I built these www.theloudspeakerkit.com/products/F6-Kit-Tower-%28Gen-II%29.html a while ago, then different tweeters and components in crossovers.
been used a while now, looking at the next speaker project at present.

Also what are your speakers?

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 12:01:17 GMT pagan said:

been used a while now, looking at the next speaker project at present.

Also what are your speakers?

Oh, you a speaker builder? Great!

My humble speakers are these very old Avance Alpha 44 speakers. Initially, not too great a speaker but after some loving itchy hands on the XO, drivers and speaker cables, they have come alive after half moding them as time is just not enough with me. Here:






Oh, they are still far away from the MGIII sound that I had owned except for those drums dynamic wack. I will be trying to block the ports as now I already have 2 12" subs. After that I will up the subs XO higher for the drop in bass output from them. So will blocking the ports affect any design criteria of the speakers except for the bass reduction?

[XTRProf]

Yeah, can we duplicate the crossover point passively instead of at the speakers but between the pre and amps. I'm sure that will be way better sound, right?

[Deleted]

will blocking the ports affect any design criteria of the speakers except for the bass reduction?

It will, the question is will you hear it ?

The enclosure (geometry and size) and choice of woofer is 'tuned/designed' to be ported.
Sealing off the port may increase the resonance frequency and might give a 'resonance peak' in the LF frequency response together with a different roll-off.
The effect kind-off depends on how the port was tuned.

I suggest filtering the low frequencies with a 6dB/oct or 12dB/oct passive high-pass filter or having the subwoofer adjusted to the proper freq.

a band tweeter might not 'synergise' with those relatively large (slow for HF) woofer/midrange.
a softdome will probably 'fit' better and create a more 'uniform' sound.

You can always mount a (ring emitter in your case, wouldn't go for a band tweeter for obvious reasons) on top as a supertweeter (as Alex suggested).
6dB/oct above 10kHz will add that extra sparkle you might be after.
This does mean the D'Appolito configuration/benefit is 'compromised'.

[pagan]

[/quote]



Oh, you a speaker builder? Great!

but after some loving itchy hands on the XO, drivers and speaker cables, . Here:



I will be trying to block the ports as now I already have 2 12" subs. After that I will up the subs XO higher for the drop in bass output from them. So will blocking the ports affect any design criteria of the speakers except for the bass reduction?


[/quote]

Have you already changed any drivers in these speakers?
During your mods, did you find any info on what drivers were being used?
A lot of speaker manufacturers don't make the drivers themselves, they are usually acquired from manufactures like vifa, scanspeak, ariston etc.
As solderdude was saying, blocking the port will probably cause more issues than it's worth.
Those speakers were designed for full range, MTM 8"(guess work) mid/woofers.
defeats the need for the size(volume) of the box not to use their bass capabilities, unless their bass is not that good.
What is the frequency range for the speakers?
With a vented box that size I thought they would be looking into the 35-45Hz maybe lower.
If that's the case then why a sub?

If you want to try speakers with subs it may be better to get some bookshelf size speakers and cross them about 80Hz to the subs.
Passive or try electronic crossovers to test those speakers with subs.

[XTRProf]

Mar 19, 2012 11:05:31 GMT pagan said:

Have you already changed any drivers in these speakers?
During your mods, did you find any info on what drivers were being used?
A lot of speaker manufacturers don't make the drivers themselves, they are usually acquired from manufactures like vifa, scanspeak, ariston etc.

Nope, original and Vifa if I remember correctly.

Mar 19, 2012 11:05:31 GMT pagan said:

As solderdude was saying, blocking the port will probably cause more issues than it's worth.
Those speakers were designed for full range, MTM 8"(guess work) mid/woofers.
defeats the need for the size(volume) of the box not to use their bass capabilities, unless their bass is not that good.
What is the frequency range for the speakers?
With a vented box that size I thought they would be looking into the 35-45Hz maybe lower.
If that's the case then why a sub?

Ok, noted don't block the ports as that will change the speaker parameters designed for. I was thinking a sealed speaker will be better. I don't quite like ported designs as the bass just sound artificial and not the solid wack like the real thing. So high pass filtering it will be. Can this be done at the pre / power amp interface or it's still better at the speaker side?

Actually, there is not much bass at all and I don't think the bass even reaches 35 to 45hz. More like 70 hz on hearing. I don't have the specs as these are very old speakers.

If you want to try speakers with subs it may be better to get some bookshelf size speakers and cross them about 80Hz to the subs.
Passive or try electronic crossovers to test those speakers with subs.

In fact, I'm still holding on onto a pair of Wharfedale 9.1 that our Pinkie is also having. I was thinking that that will be for the desktop computer. Oh, I have not used that for maybe 3 years now and I better let it run again.

Actually, passive or electronic crossover, which is better?

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 18:43:22 GMT @solderdude said:

It will, the question is will you hear it ?

Yes, it can be hear.

Mar 18, 2012 18:43:22 GMT @solderdude said:

The enclosure (geometry and size) and choice of woofer is 'tuned/designed' to be ported.
Sealing off the port may increase the resonance frequency and might give a 'resonance peak' in the LF frequency response together with a different roll-off.
The effect kind-off depends on how the port was tuned.

I suggest filtering the low frequencies with a 6dB/oct or 12dB/oct passive high-pass filter or having the subwoofer adjusted to the proper freq.

Good suggestion there and will look into that. But can the passive XO be used at pre / power amp interface.

Mar 18, 2012 18:43:22 GMT @solderdude said:

a band tweeter might not 'synergise' with those relatively large (slow for HF) woofer/midrange.
a softdome will probably 'fit' better and create a more 'uniform' sound.

You can always mount a (ring emitter in your case, wouldn't go for a band tweeter for obvious reasons) on top as a supertweeter (as Alex suggested).
6dB/oct above 10kHz will add that extra sparkle you might be after.
This does mean the D'Appolito configuration/benefit is 'compromised'.

Oh, I also have the same feeling about between the ribbon and ring tweeter interfacing with a heavier driver. IMVHO, ribbon/planar/electrostatic will have a tough time interfacing with a dynamic driver. But then I'm greedy and maybe I will buy both drivers to try. Of course, the ring tweeters will be the best bet for my case.

I'm replacing the tweeter to cover all the way to super frequency is because I always believe the simpler the better. Also, a much better designed tweeter will be covering what is going to be replaced instead of supplementing it. Anyway, it had been written in some KEF white papers many years ago that a speaker designed with the least drivers, the better it will sound as it's closer to a point source. Point source is what we are after in a perfect speaker design, isn't it? But again that's in theory and a large mutli array drivers speaker will always sound better than a full range driver speaker. I mean in terms of realism to Live and overall, the criteria in which I like to judge audio from.

So here we go again ................ Subjective versus Objective and which is better.

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 8:34:32 GMT @sandyk said:

I have a pair of ribbon tweeters laying around that supposedly go to 45kHz. I was thinking of simply crossing over at 18kHZ and mount them on top of my speakers in a small case, and angle them appropiately.

Alex, just do it, man! Why let something that are already bought lie around? You already retired, right?

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 8:25:07 GMT rowuk said:

Ribbon tweeters are not inherently "better" than other types, the same applies to ring radiators.

That I don't agree as I have heard the Sonus Faber ring tweeter speakers as well as my former ribbon MGIII.

Mar 18, 2012 8:25:07 GMT rowuk said:

If it were my money, I would just cross the ribbon/present tweeter over at 10,000Hz and perhaps gain a slight advantage in that last octave without messing up the present balance in the midrange.

Maybe I can try that as well since I will have bought the tweeters.

Mar 18, 2012 8:25:07 GMT rowuk said:

Actually, if it were my money, I would probably just build or buy new speakers instead of patching old ones.

Oh, that's the advantage of moding to make it pretend to feel like a Wilson Maxx.

[XTRProf]

Mar 18, 2012 10:47:45 GMT @solderdude said:

Good and cheap ring/band tweeters: HiVi
www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=9&sid=52

I use the RT1L b.t.w.

Oh, those are "fake ribbons"! Use the real stuffs here:


www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/

[Deleted]

I never said they were ribbons.

They are isodynamic tweeters, the ones I use are ring shaped (RT1L).
Heard the band types (RT1C-A) as well but efficiency and dispersion wise the ring isodynamic tweeter was best for my needs.

They may be 'fake ribbons' to you but they still are excellent tweeters with similar traits in the impulse and freq. range dept. as the real deal.
The link you provided also sells them next to the 'real' ribbons.

You can filter the lows passively/actively before the poweramps.
I can recommend that (and is how I do it myself)
You just have to have enough power amps lying around.

[pagan]

Mar 19, 2012 13:22:23 GMT @solderdude said:

You can filter the lows passively/actively before the poweramps.
I can recommend that (and is how I do it myself)
You just have to have enough power amps lying around.

Using multiple amps with passive crossovers on their inputs,,
Wouldn't the preamp be trying to drive some interesting loads?

Another question, If I may.
If using a bi/tri-amp system, do you still use a cap to protect the tweeter from potential DC?
I noticed the DCR of some Ribbons, are very low.

[Deleted]

I don't use ribbons, but if I did I would add a cap that is large enough so it doesn't have phase shifts in the operating area (10 to 22uF for a tweeter ?).
the filter section already has lots of that (phase shifts).
Hence my fondness for (almost) full range (electrostatic) DIY speakers since there are no XO's in the 'sensitive' area .
The almost 0 Ohm DC resistance of (tranformer coupled) ribbons may pose problems for most amps if they are simply bi-tri-amped without a XO in front of the amp and are receiving slight DC or LF fed to it as it acts as a short.
A cap in series will act as a (very) high resistance for those frequencies/DC in series with the trafo that feeds the ribbon.

any buffer in front of passive filters will be able to drive several sections without any problems I think.
Driving them straight from a (unknown output resistance ? ) pre-amp may cause some undesired effects if the used circuit has a relatively low impedance.

[pagan]

Mar 19, 2012 12:15:55 GMT XTRProf said:

Nope, original and Vifa if I remember correctly.

Ok, noted don't block the ports as that will change the speaker parameters designed for. I was thinking a sealed speaker will be better. I don't quite like ported designs as the bass just sound artificial and not the solid wack like the real thing. So high pass filtering it will be. Can this be done at the pre / power amp interface or it's still better at the speaker side?

Actually, there is not much bass at all and I don't think the bass even reaches 35 to 45hz. More like 70 hz on hearing. I don't have the specs as these are very old speakers.

If you want to try speakers with subs it may be better to get some bookshelf size speakers and cross them about 80Hz to the subs.
Passive or try electronic crossovers to test those speakers with subs.

In fact, I'm still holding on onto a pair of Wharfedale 9.1 that our Pinkie is also having. I was thinking that that will be for the desktop computer. Oh, I have not used that for maybe 3 years now and I better let it run again.

Actually, passive or electronic crossover, which is better?

[/quote]
The Wharfdale's? these?
www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products/Product/tabid/78/PID/48/Default.aspx
If so, they would be better suited to the 2 subs.

I prefer electronic if driving multiple amps, but then the trade of is another opamp in the signal path.....

Vifa woofers?
the tweeters don't look like vifa's
You could try varying the stuffing in the boxes/
Who changed them?

[XTRProf]

Mar 19, 2012 13:22:23 GMT @solderdude said:

You just have to have enough power amps lying around.

Oh, I will look out for a hybrid (tube/SS) to drive the tweeter (mid/high). So subs as of now Class D, upper bass to lower mid Parasound hybrid (Fet/Mosfet/Transistor) and mid mid to super high hybrid amp (tube/SS). Full tube also can for tweeter but preference goes for hybrid tube/SS for obvious reasons.

Any recommendation for the tube/SS amps? Yeah, monos will be ideal!

[XTRProf]

Mar 20, 2012 8:36:00 GMT pagan said:

The Wharfdale's? these?
www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products/Product/tabid/78/PID/48/Default.aspx
If so, they would be better suited to the 2 subs.

Yup, same as the pair Pinkie has now. Will also try them later as of now they are in "cold storage" and I have completely forgotten about them until you mentioned about small speakers as they were planned for the computer setup 3 years ago.

Mar 20, 2012 8:36:00 GMT pagan said:

I prefer electronic if driving multiple amps, but then the trade of is another opamp in the signal path.....

Oh, I don't like OPA, maybe I will recal my MF X-10 V3 out from "cold storage" as well. Frank, will that buffer be good enough for the passive XOs to drive a triamp setup?

Mar 20, 2012 8:36:00 GMT pagan said:

Vifa woofers?
the tweeters don't look like vifa's
You could try varying the stuffing in the boxes/
Who changed them?

Nope, I didn't changed them and they are originals. Avance used Vifa OEM for drivers and changed the look of the drivers with their own badge on the tweeters. Anyway, they are very old Vifas and may not look like present Vifas.

What effect will stuffing the boxes with preferably more high density wool on the sound? Your views?

[rowuk]

Did this "project" go anywhere?



In the mean time I have "learned" alot about the methodology in "advancing" sonics from a related web site: Goodsoundclub.com. I think that it could be very interesting reading for those interested in self reflection..............

Romy the Cat that runs it basically has published his "diary" of concept to implementation over many years. I know of no other sites that go into this type of detail. He has a very unique way of responding to things happening in the world of audio. Many have trouble with his "wording" because they do not understand the message.


In any case, the jist of his method is to take what you currently have seriously, define areas where things could (should) improve, and then do NOT just try stuff out, rather develop a strategy to cure specific issues - generally one at a time because with every tiny change, the big picture needs to be reevaluated. Even although most of his stuff is "custom" built, it is very much not DIY. His sense of "purpose" is in my opinion exemplary.



So if this project is still open, what is the problem with these speakers? Where does the performance come up short? Can you define the quality of the ultra low bass, low bass, mid bass, lower midrange, upper midrange, treble, supersonics?