jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 5, 2012 11:16:14 GMT
The usual suspects converge to combine their efforts in shutting up the completely oblivious, stupid technicians that have NO clue about audio as it is a separate breed of people that is needed for that. John, may find me hilarious, pityful, ignorant and stupid but UNTIL you show WHERE the files differ and where those differences indeed originate from (TECHNICAL EXPLANATION PLEASE) my 'bullshit' is as valid as your 'bullshit'. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and an absolute hate/disgust for technical people that DARE to defie the TRUE audiophile EXPERTS. Haven't had much luck proving your findings to technical people I reckon. Haha, this is again hilarious! What do you want an RMAA test ? Jeez, I thought you would have learned something? I don't need to prove any of my findings to technical people - it's not me looking for this comfort blanket - it's you ;D I know the world can be a scarry place but adults can deal with it (I presume you are one?) I & 100s of others can plainly hear what your ears/brain/system is too broken to hear - I don't need validation - I'm perfectly happy. What I am searching for is the answer to why there is an audible difference - yes this would be of great interest & might advance audio somewhat but because there is no technical explanation yet, it doesn't invalidate what I & others hear? I know there is an audible difference & you have shown that you neither understand the sceintific method or care about it. As long as nothing measures any differnt in Franz' world then you are not disturbed. That's fair enough but leave others to get on with some real work while you listen to your measurements!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:19:40 GMT
Resorting to stupid remarks & an attempt to denigrate using sound-bites is only demeaning your own precarious position which has been shown to be beyond any technical or scienctific foundation - the very thing you seem to crave so badly in your life. Again, I hav eto say ths is hilarious & pitiful at the same time - I'm torn between laughing & crying Rock Grotto forum is usually a friendly place where one can respectfully disagree and personal attacks are not common like in many other forums. If you can't... J-Play... by those 'unwritten' rules why don't you.... ZIP it ?
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 5, 2012 11:33:50 GMT
I reply in the manner & attitude that I receive from your posts - if you don't dish it out, you don't get it back - I just mirrored the attitude you showed to me i.e "the ususal suspects" "chip on my shoulder" "haven't had much luck proving your findings to technical people", etc. If you can't take it then don't dish it out!
I would be delighted to talk technical instead but you seem disinclined to answer the statistical ignorance that you showed & I pointed out. So please now justify your statement about bias & background of the people doing the test!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:41:35 GMT
Frans Do you have a problem with me tidying up this thread ? Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:50:45 GMT
When you look at it this way I apologise.
You guys are doing excellent and pioneering work ! Thanks for opening my eyes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:56:42 GMT
Frans Do you have a problem with me tidying up this thread ? Alex Coming wednesday will be a good day for that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 11:57:31 GMT
When you look at it this way I apologise. You guys are doing excellent and pioneering work ! Thanks for opening my eyes. Frans Do you have a problem with me tidying up this thread ? Including this reply from you ? Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 12:02:38 GMT
See reply #30 I think we were both typing away at the same time responding to earlier posts. This time while 'tidying up' inform me before removal which posts exactly you find irrelevant and need removal (via PM ?)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 12:16:10 GMT
See reply #30 I think we were both typing away at the same time responding to earlier posts Fine. I will leave it the way it is. You appear to be relishing the very things that you are complaining about, even though I have attempted to post quite moderate replies in an effort to calm things down again. Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 12:27:43 GMT
It's more a question of WHO decides WHAT posts are relevant to the discussion. Everyone that posts is entitled of their own opinion and feel theirs is important, otherwise they wouldn't have posted it.
I feel there is a difference between moderating and not allowing opposing or critical views.
You know how to reach me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 13:15:36 GMT
It's more a question of WHO decides WHAT posts are relevant to the discussion. Everyone that posts is entitled of their own opinion and feel theirs is important, otherwise they wouldn't have posted it. I feel there is a difference between moderating and not allowing opposing or critical views. You know how to reach me. Here we go again. The old censorship card. In that case, the thread can stay as it is, unless either Mike or Ian decide to remove it or lock it. I would lock it myself , but I would be most likely accused of censorship.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Mar 5, 2012 14:14:35 GMT
What this thread is b00bs and really HUGE ones to calm you all down!
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Post by JohnnyBlue on Mar 5, 2012 16:42:43 GMT
Alex, in your initial post in this thread, that devil as the bottom... is that a BSD Unix devil? Are you changing to FreeBSD or OpenBSD? As a (currently very depressed) Chelsea FC fan, I think I can recognise the badge of one of my most hated rival teams: the Red Devils (aka Manchester United). I'm sure Alex's use of a football symbol in a hi-fi context was unintentional, but then again ManUre fans are famously distributed throughout the world (with none, so the story goes, in Manchester).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 17:19:33 GMT
Alex and Frans, We've been down this road a few times and it seems to end the same way each time. John touched on the most valid point, we all want the same thing but are coming in from different directions with different expectations. In the blue corner; Alex and those whom agree, we can hear improvements if we do x,y & z. We can only take educated or even wild guesses as to why it works (identical check sums etc.) but work it does. We are prepared to accept a lack of explanation because our ears tell us it's there. We are also prepared to experiment further down these lines to see if further SQ improvement can be obtained. If one day we discover the electronic explanation that can be proven with figures or measuring then that would be great. In the red corner; Frans and those whom agree, we cannot accept any claimed improvement in sound quality that cannot be measured or flies in the face of hard electronic/computer currently and long accepted parameters. If you can prove it with it figures or measuring then we we'll accept the theory. ---------------------------------------------------- Neither will agree until one side can prove, as above, that the other has missed something or is plain wrong. Discuss by all means but when the ess-aych-one-tee starts to fly it just gets messy and smelly. So doggy bags at dawn and let the DISCUSSIONS stay white and fresh.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 17:58:50 GMT
X 2
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Mar 5, 2012 18:10:32 GMT
Good summation, CJ & thanks for the words.
One thing though - it has never been demonstrated what measurements account for good sound - look at the THD wars in the last decade to see the miserable failure & dead-end this led us into. I would contend that this held back advancement in audio by at least a decade.
Finally we are emerging from this myopic haze but there are still some that want us to stay there & simply accept their somewhat superior view that measurements say it all.
So let me restate, if I may, your two contender's views:
In the blue corner we have people who hear differences when they do X, Y, Z. They are trying to set up blind tests (& have been doing so for time now) to address the criticism that subjective viewpoints don't count for nought. It is a wonderful irony that an objectivist would now claim that he will not accept these results unless they are done by "his people", the technical ones. He claims a bias & yet takes no recognition of the structure of the test. This defies logic & indeed it is hilarious
In the red corner we have people who say measurements are more sensitive than our ears - sounds like a very believeable statement. But is it? Without an accurate & agreed model for exactly how the ear works, this statement has large holes through which the argument escapes. We know some of the workings of the ear & some of the psychoacoustic factors but we don't know the full picture yet.
So is there room for both, yes. Let the subjectivists present more rigorous tests which will hopefully push the objectivists into doing what they claim they are good at measuring. This should be a collaboration, not a confrontation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 20:12:43 GMT
Yes. I was unaware of it being a footbrawl symbol.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 20:14:56 GMT
Miguel Are you trying to SMOTHER this debate ? ;D Alex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 20:30:29 GMT
I found the most recent reply (33) by screenmusic Argentina to be of interest, as it also mentions the smaller losses due to Zipping and Unzipping a music file. I will stress again that these are INDEPENDENT findings by screenmusic Argentina. Alex jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/ripping-findings/#p3981
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Mar 5, 2012 21:19:52 GMT
The thing I really (and I mean REALLY) struggle with in your thinking Alex is the whole digital process. It maybe that you can tell a difference but the process of zip files says the data should be the same as do the other 'lossless' systems of compression including checksums. The term "digital" means that - 1's & 0's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 21:38:00 GMT
The thing I really (and I mean REALLY) struggle with in your thinking Alex is the whole digital process. It maybe that you can tell a difference but the process of zip files says the data should be the same as do the other 'lossless' systems of compression including checksums. The term "digital" means that - 1's & 0's. Freddy It should be obvious from the jPlay thread that I am not alone here. Chris has also confirmed that he hears the differences, along with many other RG members including Ian,and others from C.A. and DIYAudio, that are regular recipients of my uploads, and also on the list for the passing around of a Corsair Voyager currently in the U.K. .Martin Colloms has also reported in his forum about hearing clear differences between my .wav files, and even duplicated my findings by doing ripping tests with his Naim Unitiserve , with and without special noise absorbing feet.Somehow, system electrical noise and vibration effects are there along with the stored .wav files. The Absolute Sound has also recently published several articles about how file conversion to different formats degrades SQ. This is all part of the same scenario. Power supply issues and EMI appear to be key players here. Regards Alex
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Mar 6, 2012 0:03:48 GMT
Miguel Are you trying to SMOTHER this debate ? ;D Alex Could be. Or perhaps more along the lines of "rounding it up"!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 0:53:08 GMT
Hi Johnnyblue yup me too but lets look on the bright side how much worse can it get take care
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Mar 6, 2012 4:57:30 GMT
Hey, I watched 2012 in 2011. I didn't watch 2012 in 2012.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 6:16:45 GMT
In scientific circles it is deemed important to have a test repeated, preferable by an independent group of researchers.
This is where the shoe normally doesn't quite fit because the other group needs to verify the results, but in this case the group doesn't have the right equipment not the ears to match.
Therefore the ears and gears of the group that actually can hear it should repeat the results.
From what read the differences are ranging between subtle and very obvious.
So... an open call to anyone involved (J Kenny should be able to get the J-Play people involved as well) that can hear it and want to show the skeptics it can be done. In a clear and definitive way so this discussion CAN be put to rest and the more technically minded people can feel confident they are not waisting their time and money on an optical/audible illusion.
Here is my proposal.
The SAME files used for the test now being done (once the best way of 'transport' has been figured out) I suggest trying different compression methods as well for instance 7-ZIP or RAR.
These files clearly marked are sent or downloaded to a person interested in this matter with a suspected GOOD PC and knowledge how to handle these files. They are downloaded 10 times and stored in compressed format (so they don't loose fidelity)
These 10 files 2 files are then renamed (+ property boxes emptied) and a ZIP file with 10 files is created. It will have files named 1 to 10. The order in which they are present in the file (which is file A and B) will be known to 3 people only. These people all must have audio at heart and must not belong to the test group and be very serious about it.
Those that can hear (that have past the J-Play test or came very close) must be able to pick out which file is which.
The answers will be sent to a, new to create (Gmail ?) account, of which the login codes are known to all 3 testers and include Alex / Jkeny so all can check the incoming results independent (check, double check).
When the results are back they will be published.
This discussion will be put to rest and real collaboration in finding out HOW this can be can be started without reservations in both camps.
My suggestion for 2 people that are trustworthy and may have suitable PC's are: Javier and Elysion As an independent and honest referee I have in mind: Heliharris or Rowuk I would like to coordinate.
None of the people I mentioned above have been asked by me so they may not have any interest in this test or getting involved in the heated discussion.
So … a hilarious proposal or what ?
This will give the subjective camp something that will be very easy to do (as they can hear it) and will convince the non-believers that they are indeed wrong. This can ONLY end in 100% willingness of both corners (red and blue) to NOT question the results and cooperate in finding out why.
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