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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2012 22:14:25 GMT
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 21, 2012 23:29:58 GMT
Some guys I know who use Senn 600/650's and also the Beyer DT-48's claim they get better sound with the Beyers with integrated amps, and one user even uses a power amp's speaker taps into the Beyer headphones (which has to be dangerous). So damping or something like it probably makes a difference, but I don't know of any organized listening tests.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 22, 2012 3:24:23 GMT
In fact, nowadays more and more highend HAs are designed from a power amp perspective for use as HA. I always advocate for that from day one as that should sound the best. I never like anything from any OPA persepctive eventhough they may be technically alright. I always like things discrete for the best SQ. But, as usual, the hearing is on the table for people to determine whether that is nonsense or the correct way to approach good sound. Technical still don't give us a true picture of SQ and performance. The problem is it's SQ that matters most in anything hifi.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 6:21:26 GMT
It's the same story of NwAvGuy. My evil twin adores John Siau ! quote from the article: This paper will show that a high damping factor reduces distortion at the headphone inputs, improves phase response, and flattens frequency response. It all is VERY true, but you have to realise what distortion is, what affects phase response and frequency response. It all comes down to voltage division effects not damping effects as claimed. Because of voltage division the frequency curve is altered as the impedance varies over frequency. The higher the output resistance the worse the effect IF the impedance graph varies much. For phase response the same it alters MORE because of the voltage division. Distortion simply is the difference between expected and measured frequency components and the amount of the added components. Also take under consideration there are no headphones that distort less than 0.1% and most even have areas where 1% to 10% is normal distortion levels of 100% can even be seen (taken with a low-Ohmic amp). They are talking about an increase in distortion from to 0.0003% to 0.03% Also bear in mind that added distortion that is pleasant sounding (which has to do with even/odd ratio and the way the spectrum is present/slopes) can make things sound MORE pleasant (cartridges, tubes, transformers, FET's, DSP effects). Is that a BAD thing if it sounds better or are only measurements important ? In the end it's about how much enjoyment an individual gets lisetening to their music with their ears alone on the equipment they prefer is it not ? No harm in measuring things, it tells a big part of the story but you have to know which numbers ARE important and which are not. I am not saying I know this better than John Siau or NwAvGuy I just have a different opinion on certain aspects. remember Benchmark has to SELL their products, live of it and stand out. I don't USE the ears AND your common sense. I urge everyone that reads the article to notice the SCALES as they are 'stretched' to make a point and thus appear to be worse than the real world effects. You also have to know WHAT dB's can be heard and what is irrelevant due to masking but CAN show up in measurements. So yes... there is a difference in signal between low impedance amps and high impedance amps. Of course there is, otherwise it wouldn't SOUND different. As I have stated MANY times before: Certain headphones DO SOUND better on low Ohmic amps because of voltage division artifacts that affect the reproduction in a negative way. Some headphones DO SOUND better on higher Ohmic amps because of voltage division artifacts that affects the reproduction in a positive way. Beyerdynamic must be mad to market an amp with 100 Ohm output for their headphones. Are they stupid or they they know something others don't know. Reports of amps having better 'synergy' or headphones sounding better on certain amps must also be crazy, or can this be related to the voltage division (and added nice distortion). It has been covered here before and blamed on 'damping factor' with evidence like the DT880 test (Tyll's test which is not very scientific correct to prove damping factor) and 'audio' tests from people that sell low Ohmic amps. The measurements from Goldenears (they repeated it) tell me a different story ! And they too believe in low Ohmic amps but their plots suggest it has NOTHING to do with damping factor but with differences in used MATERIALS. In my re-written resistance article I explain my 'view' on this. www.mediafire.com/?82kf0r5kdckdcerOf course, as with everything in life, some people will disagree and have opposing views backed up with their evidence. It's a free world (at least it would be nice if it was)
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 22, 2012 7:25:10 GMT
It's probably an impossible wish, but if there were an amp that could separate loud complex passages much better on very small headphones like the Beyer DT-1350 or Vmoda M-80, in other words clean up the congestion that occurs with small earcups etc., I could go for that.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 22, 2012 7:40:25 GMT
It's probably an impossible wish, but if there were an amp that could separate loud complex passages much better on very small headphones like the Beyer DT-1350 or Vmoda M-80, in other words clean up the congestion that occurs with small earcups etc., I could go for that. Have you heard the Shit yet? I have not but the hybrid Schiit Lyr at 6W from 8 to 600 ohms (40 Vpp at 32 ohms) will drive most headphones including the LCD 2 or 3 to oblivion. As usual the specs are in the talking and we have to experient it to write so whether it's damn good.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 8:26:40 GMT
It's probably an impossible wish, but if there were an amp that could separate loud complex passages much better on very small headphones like the Beyer DT-1350 or Vmoda M-80, in other words clean up the congestion that occurs with small earcups etc., I could go for that. These 'problems' lie in the headphone(s). The amp has no influence on those aspects nor can an amp 'separate' signals. It can only amplify the original signal (which is an electrical addition of all recorded audio signals) and how well it does depends on many factors. The fact that people percieve certain aspects different when changing amps can be for different reasons. The audio signal applied is simply a voltage (actually 2, left and right) that varies in amplitude over time nothing more, nothing less. It does NOT consist of all original signals separated. The 'separation' of the combined signal is performed in the brain and nowhere else. How well the brain can 'set them apart' depends on the individual, reproduction (electro-mechanical-acoustical conversion), recording itself and quality of the amplified signal. a low Ohmic amp with negliable (below 0.01%) distortion and enough current and voltage capabilities that can be delivered in complex loads (inductive, capacitive, resistive) and a wide enough frequency range from 1Hz to 100Khz (-3 dB) should not add nor change the signal in any way. This is easily verified. What goes in should exit amplified and using a differential amplifier can show this while using ACTUAL music with the ACTUAL load of a headphone. If there is no difference, except for amplitude this will be evident. However, IF someone prefers the signal to be pleasantly altered which enhances the sonic bliss / experience what is considered most important ? Technically the 'good performing' amp will be most accurate but if you don't care for accuracy but for sonic enjoyment all bets are off. Not better, but pleasantly different may well be preferred, certainly by most audiophiles. The Schitt with tubes in it adds coloration though like with most tube things may sound nicer because of the HIGHER amount of distortion. Connecting such an amp to headphones with 50mW to 200mW rating can destroy them with ease.
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 22, 2012 13:56:28 GMT
Connecting such an amp to headphones with 50mW to 200mW rating can destroy them with ease. Along similar lines, a 2kW amp will have destroyed most speakers before the peak is reached. Here ............. www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/Yet, clearly the superamp sounds much better then the usual flea watters of less than 15 watts at about the same volume. Of course, as usual, there is the check and balance side of the story that argue against as here ............ www.decware.com/newsite/paper110.htmSo who is righter? As usual, a stalmate if we want to believe to one side of the story for all. Mind us, all these writers are techncal people in the know of what they are presenting as one of them is a white paper, like a PhD thesis, to maybe some audio society.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 15:03:05 GMT
The above link is the most correct explanation (technically correct that is) but with selling their high power amp in mind. To justify the high power so to speak. You probably have followed the 15W class-A thread where Alex and Shaun state it is more than enough for MOST domestic circumstances. It IS, simply because peaks do not reach the clipping levels unless you up the volume to a beefier level. If you want to go louder yet again you will need 100W amps (as explained in the short article Alex doesn't want to explore in THAT thread) To reach 'live' levels, undistorted, in your living room you need close to 1000W. Imagine a full orchestra or Rock band actually playing in your living room ! He needs to sell his high-power amps, so claims his amps can.The bottom link ( it says paper, not white paper) and is written by a seller who mixes truth with 'magic' from his company which sells 'added distortion' and low power amps. It is nice of them to show the (not so impressive) distortion products of a 1kHz tone. Should they have included one of 100Hz it would have looked pretty different (trafo's) Anyone buying a DAC or amp would shiver buying something that distorts that much. Of course it is very nice SOUNDING distortion, but distortion it is. He needs to sell low power products so states a few watt is enough AND his watts are more quality.Both (want) to be right so they sell what they have to offer. It is the reader who chooses to believe what's true or what he wants to be true. For me the answer is in the middle. Low power sounds good in domestic circumstances but might leave me wanting when willing to play louder. I don't need 1kW amps for I don't need 120 or 130dB in my room. having said that I had several hundreds of Watts but my planars were not very sensitive. Give me a few 'capable' solid state amps of about 100W to 200W and I will use active filtering. If I want 'tuby' distortion added I use a tube buffer or DSP that can simulate tubes.
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 22, 2012 15:39:09 GMT
Anyway, these are the typical volume pot setting used for various HPs for the said Shit. Not something at very low level and making a new Olympic volume record jump within a small tread of the pot but more like the usual hifi preamp jump if based on a 2V CD source. Mind us, it's at 6W for 32 ohms and 4w at 60 ohms (I think). www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/11.htmlYeah, the review did mention don't be a hero when turning the pot though. Meaning do it normally and not like a DJ or a studio engineer.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 22, 2012 16:28:31 GMT
So if you have an amp that can destroy your speaker or headphone, and you want to put a protection in if there is not one already, can the protection limit spikes or other non-music signals safely without clipping any dynamic music signals?
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 22, 2012 16:39:31 GMT
So if you have an amp that can destroy your speaker or headphone, and you want to put a protection in if there is not one already, can the protection limit spikes or other non-music signals safely without clipping any dynamic music signals? Yes, can be done without limiting the dynamics. Ask our good old resident technical guru Frans for the paper!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 16:46:55 GMT
My old Beyerdynamic DT990 had protection in the headphone in the form of 2 zener diodes in anti-series that limit the voltage (clipping) but wouldn't work on the likes of Schhiiittt it would meld these diodes as they were 0.5W. (took those out by the way) There are some amps where you can set the maximum current but this would require different settings for different headphones. Also this too is a form of clipping. Every amp clips at some point in current or voltage limiting. Driving delicate voice coils (50 to 200mW) with high power amps always has a certain risk. Not so much while wearing them but for unguarded moments when not on the head or so. DJ headphones and some prof versions as well as many ortho's can handle several watts. It may be possible to design a protection circuit where you can dial in power and impedance and it will disconnect when power is exceeded. It could even be an external box. Would be quite some job to develop though. Very likely more complex than designing an amplifier.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2012 20:06:59 GMT
Best do that when your wife isn't home !
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 2:38:13 GMT
Best do that when your wife isn't home ! Er, for HP? For sure, I wouldn't listen at 4 or 6 W for ear sake. Only the usual volume level will do as with a more powerful amp, the sound, althought at the same volume as a lower power amp, will sound energectically different.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 6:37:40 GMT
NOT IF: a: both amps stay below clipping level (current and/or voltage) b: both amps have similar output resistance. c: no 'additions' are made.
The last one is important for tube lovers as the volume may be the same but at a lower level, due to non-linearities, more harmonic info is ADDED contributing to a perceived increase in volume.
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Post by XTRProf on Feb 23, 2012 10:44:47 GMT
NOT IF: a: both amps stay below clipping level (current and/or voltage) Who would like to listen to a HP at just below clipping level? I mean volume in terms of SPL obviously. b: both amps have similar output resistance. As said, SPL level. c: no 'additions' are made. The last one is important for tube lovers as the volume may be the same but at a lower level, due to non-linearities, more harmonic info is ADDED contributing to a perceived increase in volume. Again as in SPL level and not volume knob position.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 13:05:06 GMT
Just below clipping level gives optimal S/N ratio and least amount of distortion. Solid State amps perform best there (not in case slew rate is limiting the frequency range) so I LOVE it when levels are just under clipping level. In fact most specs are given just under clipping levels because the numbers are best. Tube amps generally have the lowest amounts of distortion at lower levels (low to medium power) and increase gradually with increased output power. Completly different behavior that is rarely shown in specs. Usually only the worst figures in the most optimal conditions is given. SPL level may be the same for say 1kHz but in case a higher output resistance is present the SPL can be different at frequencies other than 1kHz. The SPL level is determined by the largest amplitude(s) at a certain frequency(s) in the spectrum. The coulouration, in other words different spectral components at lower levels that have another amplitude and warm up the sound or alter it in another way do NOT affect the SPL, yet can give the IMPRESSION of fuller or warmer sound at the SAME SPL measured. This is a perception issue but by handy salesmen often claimed as a 'technical feature' or 'clever design'. Volume knob position says ABSOLUTELY nothing about SPL. Volume knob position and SPL are determined/related by at least 5 variables: a: gain b: input level c: efficiency of the transducer d: output resistance e: nominal impedance of the transducer I even left out some subjective influences that also appear to be relevant. I have a feeling you are mixing up certain 'theories', based on scattered articles and own observations instead of fully understanding the fundamentals.
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Post by dalethorn on Feb 23, 2012 16:10:34 GMT
I remember from many years ago, even as a kid, that when I had two devices connected and the volume pot's on both were active, if I changed the volume on the source and then adjusted the volume on the output device, the sound quality would change. So even though I don't know a lot about electronics, I would guess even if the source volume pot were perfectly linear between setting A and setting B, somehow the interaction of the two devices changes that linear behavior. Which then makes me ask -- can a headphone running off of any headphone amp be perfectly linear in response at different volume settings?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 16:32:16 GMT
I don't fully understand the reasoning/question but I suspect you mean: if you change the volume (so the output level increases) and the frequency response remains linear (which IS the case UNLESS you were using centretapped volpots with loudness function) why the sound signature changes.
This is because of phon curves, we hear more bass and highs relative to mids as the level increases so a human trait that 'seems' to come from the electronics but isn't the case. loudness but not as in the 'loudness wars' which is another kind of loudness.
Perhaps you meant when one device (say a DAP) with volume control is lowered in level and the amp (with it's own volume control) is increased to compensate for the lower input the sound becomes different.
This can be because a: both volume controls do not have the same tracking, so 9o'clock and 12 o'clock on both pots have a different attenuation, and thus moving one pot from 12 to 9 and the other from 9 to 12 MAY result in a (slightly) different level. a 1dB higher level is always mistaken for 'better sound). The same I noticed with the SHMCD. b: When turning down 1 first and then turning up the second one again can change the way you perceive the sound (so a perception thing rather than technical)
In electrical sense it doesn't matter where the volume is adjusted as it is linear BUT it does have an influence on the noise levels.
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Post by rowuk on Mar 23, 2012 18:24:16 GMT
1) The information that gets to my brain for analysis is altered thousands of times more just by my attitude than by an amp.
2) The frequency/phase response of headphones varies dramatically based on the fit - which is different every time that you put them on
3) my music always sounds best when I am not in analysis mode, in fact a good red wine and a piece of fine cheese increases the listening pleasure much more than the distortion caused by tubes
4) if we would spend more time on the "experience" instead of the "numbers", we would have less to talk about, but have a bigger smile on our faces!
5) I am building an amp that looks like an Indeed/bravo, but has 2 wine corks where the tubes"should be". I know that that amp will lower the resistance of my AKG 701s dramatically, will put me in the listening phase, and increase the freak response!
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Post by dalethorn on Mar 23, 2012 18:38:57 GMT
I don't fully understand the reasoning/question but I suspect you mean: if you change the volume (so the output level increases) and the frequency response remains linear (which IS the case UNLESS you were using centretapped volpots with loudness function) why the sound signature changes. This is because of phon curves, we hear more bass and highs relative to mids as the level increases so a human trait that 'seems' to come from the electronics but isn't the case. loudness but not as in the 'loudness wars' which is another kind of loudness. Perhaps you meant when one device (say a DAP) with volume control is lowered in level and the amp (with it's own volume control) is increased to compensate for the lower input the sound becomes different. This can be because a: both volume controls do not have the same tracking, so 9o'clock and 12 o'clock on both pots have a different attenuation, and thus moving one pot from 12 to 9 and the other from 9 to 12 MAY result in a (slightly) different level. a 1dB higher level is always mistaken for 'better sound). The same I noticed with the SHMCD. b: When turning down 1 first and then turning up the second one again can change the way you perceive the sound (so a perception thing rather than technical) In electrical sense it doesn't matter where the volume is adjusted as it is linear BUT it does have an influence on the noise levels. In my most recent case it was a Senn PX-200ii with a real pot on the cord (not an Apple control which sends a signal to the player). I can run the controls up and down to be sure I'm accounting for lower and higher overall volume, so I'm not being tricked by a loudness effect. I get the idea there's something electrical there - resistance, capacitance, dunno.
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Post by dalethorn on Mar 23, 2012 18:44:50 GMT
1) The information that gets to my brain for analysis is altered thousands of times more just by my attitude than by an amp. 2) The frequency/phase response of headphones varies dramatically based on the fit - which is different every time that you put them on 3) my music always sounds best when I am not in analysis mode, in fact a good red wine and a piece of fine cheese increases the listening pleasure much more than the distortion caused by tubes 4) if we would spend more time on the "experience" instead of the "numbers", we would have less to talk about, but have a bigger smile on our faces! 5) I am building an amp that looks like an Indeed/bravo, but has 2 wine corks where the tubes"should be". I know that that amp will lower the resistance of my AKG 701s dramatically, will put me in the listening phase, and increase the freak response! I find that it's not the fit per se for me, but with certain headphones, especially those with pleather pads on-ear, it's the seal and how long it takes to achieve a perfect seal. For best sound, in the wee morning hours the ambient noise level in my apartment drops about 20 db compared to daytime, which makes a huge difference. Another major factor in sound is switching headphones. If I stick with one headphone for a week or so, I start to hear new things and new enjoyments. If I change headphones, my brain is working overtime to implement the new translation table.
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Post by Crispy on Mar 23, 2012 19:10:56 GMT
LOL ;D Send me the plans. You would have to make sure the corks are from a decent bottle of Haut Medoc or Pauillac.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2012 19:15:36 GMT
In my most recent case it was a Senn PX-200ii with a real pot on the cord (not an Apple control which sends a signal to the player). I can run the controls up and down to be sure I'm accounting for lower and higher overall volume, so I'm not being tricked by a loudness effect. I get the idea there's something electrical there - resistance, capacitance, dunno. Actually the inline volume controls are simply a variable resistance in series or in voltage division mode and in bot cases in series with the driver. Thus when adjusting the volume with the inline volume control you not only adjust the volume but get a free 'loudness' control with it. This is not much.. 1 or 2 dB lift in the bass at most but it certainly is not as linear as a volpot in an amp. How audible a 1 or 2dB bass lift is remains to be seen. Perhaps in an AB situation (would be very difficult to do) it could be picked out with a higher than chance certainty. The effect you can hear is not caused by cable capacitance or damping factor (which changes depending on the inline vol control setting/mode of attenuation) but caused by voltage division and the non-linear behavior of the impedance of the voicecoils.
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