X Cans and Beyer DT 990 600 ohms

[Deleted]

The connection of more than one headphone to one output was what I was describing earlier.

The only reason I can think of for going 600 ohms in all honesty is if you get a lot of noise issues. Other than that, it basically makes the amp's job more difficult and as a result can compress the dynamics.

I have seen some reviews that allude to 'smoothness' of the 600 ohm version. My feelings about that were that they may have been hearing the result of flattened dynamics.

I also wondered whether the bass response would be different when an amp is under this kind of load.

Ian

[normand]

They should arrive in the next day or two. I am a little concerned about the match following the postings from Mike, pcourtney1 and yourself, Ian. I have read a couple of things elsewhere in which the 600 ohm version sounds great in ordinary home use but I have no experience of the headphone amps they use (and I can't remember what they were now) so that doesn't help much. I understand your point about the amp having to work harder, however I still come back to the point that I am not getting the volume control past the ten-to position which indicates that there is lots of reserve. But from what you have said, I suspect it is a little more complicated than this.

It does seem to me that as Beyer are making these 'phones in three versions, the 600 ohm model are intended for home enthusiasts as well as for professional use. As such, they must feel that this version will work with a range of home headphone amps. The 600 is widely available so I assume they produce lots of them, not just, or even mainly, for studio work. This might be me constructing an arguement to support my choice, though. Straw clutching.

I guess it's all 'ifs' and 'buts' until they arrive and I plug them in. I am a seasoned listener (ie - not a spring chicken!) and I will be able to detect if dynamics are flattened or if the bass isn't right. I also have three headphones available to compare against the 990s - these will give me a reference.

Thanks again,

Norman

[Deleted]

You'll hear sound Norman, so it's not that bad. The dynamic range being squashed may not be noticeable until you play something with a wide dynamic range.

The problem is that the transients (hits on drums for instance) take a lot more power for the initial attack so you need a lot of headroom for the dynamics to be revealed. 600 ohms may not leave you enough headroom.

Hi Fi enthusiasts would have a high powered amp but it would hardly be ticking over and that's simply to provide headroom. (dynamics)

On many cheaper amps, they run loud at say 11 o clock, but once you pass 1 o clock, they often turn ugly and produce distortion. That's because they're not as powerful as you think from the volume control!! It's a kind of 'con' trick. Many amps are running higher than you think at 10 o clock; you just don't go any further than that.

Let's just wait and see. It's not something I'd try tbh. Max, I use about 300 ohms but it also depends on the actual sensitivity of the headphone as well. Sometimes, you can get a headphone rated at 250 ohms that goes loud at lower volumes in comparison to others. Other take more driving.

As an example, my Sennheiser HD600 and 650 go far louder than my AKG K701 which is rated at 68 ohms at the same volume!! The difference is the K701 needs a lot of current and is actually not that sensitive so you need a BIG amp to drive a 68 ohm headphone.

I have only really seen 600 ohm headphones in work places, not at home and the only real advantage I can think of is the rejection of noise, which you wouldn't really get at 250 ohms in any case.

Hopefully, you could exchange it for 250 ohm version? The smoother response that people mention could be the lack of dynamics because a high impedance headphone may sound a bit 'less lively' and duller than a lower impedance.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you get. It's a pity you don't have a 250 ohm to compare as well.

Ian

[normand]

Hi. Quick update. The 990s and the X-Cans V8P arrived this morning. I've only had an hour or so with the headphones and a quick burst with the V8 to make sure the amp works. Very early days but this 600 ohm version seems ok - in fact, a lot better than ok. The V1 X-Can seems to drive it without difficulty and it doesn't need too much extra on the volume control. I did try and turn it past 12.00, up to around 1.00 - very briefly - and it was uncomfortable but I didn't detect any distortion. Certainly at 'normal' listening levels - between 10 to and 5 to on the V1, it sounds lovely. Lots of punchy, deep bass, sparkling treble and an all-round pleasing sound. On a quick initial comparison I like it better than the HD650s.

As I say, very early days; I need to put it through its paces over the next few days to see if the initial view is correct or if some tracks / albums 'tell me' that the 250 version would be a better bet. If I keep them there's burn-in time. And there is the question of how they will work with the V8. I need 28 hour days and 10 day weeks.

Couple of questions - the power supply with the V8P is a more substantial looking affair than the one supplied with the V1. Is it worth changing the V8P supply to the Little Pinkie? And is the Pinkie supply the same for the V1 as the V8? Also, does anyone use the V8P as a pre-amp? I currently have an integrated valve amp (having stepped off the Naim ladder earlier this year) and I am curious to see if anyone has any experience here.

I will update when I have a few more hours under my belt.

Norman

[Deleted]

Norman, where did you get the 600 ohm version? I presume they're the silver new ones, not pros? About £200?

Glad that it's working ok. No distortion up at the higher levels too which is great.

Ian

[normand]

Hi Ian. I got the 600 ohm version from iheadphones-uk. They are the silver ones, not the pros, and were £229.

I'm going for a session now, can't wait. Do you happen to know any of the answers regarding the V8P? Sorry to be a pest.

Norman

[Deleted]

I've never used a 600 ohm headphone with any of the X-Cans Norman.

I did wonder whether the V8 may sound a bit thin on them since it's the leanest sounding of the bunch that I have.

V1, V2 and V8.

Ian

[normand]

Hi Folks. A few days into owning the DT990 600s and I love them. They sound great with all kinds of music I have tried on them; progressive, mainstream rock, folk, some classical. They work well with both the V1 and the V8 and it's interesting how different the 2 amps are. The one issue, which I received advice from some of you on, was the match of the 600 ohm 'phone with the X-Can. Conclusion at this point is that for nearly all recordings I have put on there is no problem - the amps don't have to work that hard (I am not having to turn them to near maximum) and there seems to be plenty of dynamic response, good resolution, etc; everything seems to be there and comparing it to the other phones I have / have borrowed, they don't appear to have lost any slam or scale. On a small number of recordings, however, (quieter Genesis and Jethro Tull 70s recordings on cd and vinyl), the volume control needs to go fairly high. I have also found that the V8 needs to work that bit harder (more volume control needed) to drive the music on these quieter tracks / passages.

I did consider in the first couple of days changing the 990s for the 250 version but I do like this 600 version and I would be loath to return it. Although it seems a bit over the top, I am going to get a second pair of 990s, this time the pro 250 version, as they are well-priced. That will cover all eventualities. The others I have listened to - HD650s, DT831s, HD590s and, last night, a friends DT511s - all sound good in different ways with the 650s probably the stand-out of this group. But none of them have quite that magic for me that the 990s have.

What do you think - is a second 990 pair a good idea or is there something different I should consider as a second pair? I do prefer open backed and I am listening in a separate room so I'm not disturbing the family.

Norman

[Deleted]

You know, Norman, I don't know how the 250 ohm version is different other than it may be a tad easier to drive.

It's hard hitting music that will show any 'clipping' and the fact that you need to turn up on quiet music does show that it needs more power really.

My main headphones are

Senn HD600/HD250 II, Beyer DT770 pro and 990 pro, Grado SR125i.

Those ones I use the most. (Closed and open in each)

I have loads of others, but tend to stick with the DT990 250 ohm. It is a lovely headphone and has some similarities with the DT770 which goes on my head if the TV is on. (Same with the Senns)

I'm glade that you like them. I'm still a bit curious about the 600 ohm and the amopunt of drive it would need. I have a Panda amp which would drive them well but have never considered a 600 ohm headphone on an X-Can if I'm honest.

I use the Grados with portable amps since they're less demanding and an HD25 closed headphone which is also easy to drive. (Other than iem's straight from daps)

Are there any headphones that particularly interest you?

Ian

[normand]

Hi Ian. I do like the Senn HD650s which are my brother-in-laws. They don't sound quite as revealing but are nicely balanced and are good with livlier, up-front recordings. I wondered what the difference is between the 650 and the 600 which you own; a pair of one of these would be a good choice for music that needs a little 'taming'. I did like the snapshot I heard of the Grado 325s at the Manchester show but it was only a short blast and on a system where the source and amp are probably not as good as mine. I'm also curious about a couple of things I've read about the 601s and 701s but I'm not sure how I would get on with these - would someone who loves the 990 sound like either of these two? I don't know if these are closed or open.

I don't know about the Panda amp but the 990 600s are great with a high majority of my recordings - I deliberately chose quieter recordings to test the 600 ohm and although there was a ned to wind-up the V8, it still went pretty loud.

All interesting stuff

Norman

[Deleted]

The hd600 is a little more 'balanced' sounding than the hd650. The HD650 has a heavier, thicker sound and the HD600 is a bit lighter.

I regard it as a good middle of the road headphone. The dt990 pro is a 'sports' sound; lively and quick and for me, a very entertaining listen.

K601 and 701 are very different. Pigs to drive properly and for me, verge on thin and mean sounding. Excellent for acoustic, light sounding music but for rock based stuff, I think they're horrible tbh. Just thin and edgy but a wonderful acoustic guitar or voice headphone.

I'm very curious about the 600 ohm version but it's quite a bit of money for the same headphone basically as the one I have which retails about £130.

The new Grado 125i is much cheaper than the 325i and is actually quite pleasant on the soft pads that they now sell with. Being 32 ohms, they are easy to drive but do require quite a lot of current to drive them well. They become a little 'fuller' with a strong amp behind them and are slightly better sounding imo than the sr80i (which I also have) Just a bit more refined but since they now sell with soft pads rather than those horrible bowls, they are comfortable to wear and have a warm, attractive sound; perhaps closer to the sound of the portable headphone that Grado sell. (SR60 in disguise). I quite like the 125i and I have a Beyer headband pad around the cheap looking band part which makes it a bit more plush.

Personally, if you are sticking with the 600 ohm version of the Beyer, I wouldn't bother going to the 250 ohm version myself. I think they're pretty close. I am surprised that they are working so well from an X-Can!

Ian

[normand]

Hmm. One or two doubts crept in tonight. I have listened to another range of music and I needed quite a lot of 'juice' to drive the 990s with tonight's selection. The V1 X-Cans were generally ok with quite a bit of reserve but the V8 cans, particularly with a couple of vinyl recordings, struggled to drive the 990s until they were turned quite high up. When the 990s are driven well they are fantastic but the quieter recordings feel as though they need a 'phone with lower impedence.

Choices would seem to be (a) replace the 600 version for a 250 version or (b) keep the 600 version and buy the cheaper 250 pro version or (c) keep the 600 version and buy a different headphone, something better matched to the V8.

Thanks for the info on the headphones, Ian. It's a bit of a whim, but the 601 / 701 sounds interesting - i do have a bit of folk / folk rock / lighter progressive that sounds as though it might be suited to one of these phones. But I think the 990s will remain my main listening headphone.

Norman

[Deleted]

What level do you need to go up to on the V8, Norman?. I generally use mine at about 11 o clock.

It possibly doesn't sound as loud because it's a bit lighter sounding than the earlier versions.

Also, because the vol pot is so big, you may 'think' you're using more volume.

If you like the dt990, it may be better to use a 250 ohm version. You may find that it sounds fuller as well. Especially on the v8.

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

It's a bit of a whim, but the 601 / 701 sounds interesting

I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole if you are going to be driving them with a V1 / V8 (especially the K-701) unless you like your sound to be lacking in balls and drive.

My personal favourite (open type) with the V1 / V8 are the Senn HD-600... there is a nice synergy with them. I, personally, wouldn't put a 600ohm pair of 'phones anywhere the V1 (or ANY home headphone amp for that matter) you would be better with the 250ohm version, period.

Please also try the little Senn PX100.... sounds crazy? Have a listen

The V8 is anaemic to my ears and greatly lacking in balls.... the V8 / K-701 would be an extremely uneventful listen and I would, quite frankly, get more entertainment getting my teeth drilled.... I know some people LOVE that airy fairy type of presentation but, to me, it is not REAL.... it's like drinking that watered down semi skimmed shite and then going to full cream Jersey cow milk.... I know which one I prefer when I want to drink a glass of "milk". Same with music, I prefer it "full cream"

[normand]

The volume is around 5 past with most things, sometimes higher and last night I found more music that needs an even higher setting. Should have listened to advice and gone for the 250 version in the first place - which I now have; I returned them this morning requesting a change.

I think, Ian, the lighter sound of the V8 may contribute to the need to wind them up that bit more.

I've not heard the 600 senns, Mark, but I like my brother-in-laws 650s and I also quite liked listening to my old 590s last night. Do the 600s sound like either of these? The 650s are not as comfortable as the 590s or the Beyer 'phones. I do want to get a second set to compliment the 990s and I guess I have to choose between skimmed and full-cream. Some music would benefit from from the lighter 601s or 701s, surely? I have a pair of the little PX100 senns which I use when out and about with the i pod - I think they are great for what they are.

Mark, I'm thinking of improving the X-Can V1. I like its grunt and musicality even though it is less refined than the V8. Is the litte pinky the best start point before looking at the mods described earlier in this post? Also, does the same little pinky work on both the V1 and V8; forgive the basic questions, it's all new to me.

Norman

[Deleted]

Norman, it's Mike that makes the Little Pinkies.

The V1 and V8 have different connections for the plug unfortunately but one effect of the Little Pinkie is a better dynamic range.

I actually like the DT990 with the V8. However, I have a nice power supply for it as well and better sounding tubes in there.

250 ohms is more sensible if you're going right up in the volume range, since there isn't really a great deal of headroom which is what I suspected would happen. I use the V8 at about 10 - 11 o clock with 250 ohms.

Ian

[normand]

Oops - thanks for the correction, Ian, and sorry about getting your name wrong Mike.

One the point of the fuller sounding senn 600, are they a light fitting 'phone? I find the 650 tends to clamp the head slightly and is less comfortable than the beyers. I've been getting a little of the warm-ears syndrome and I would like a second pair of headphones, whether 601s / senn 600 (or whatever) to be a comfortable fit.

Norman

[Deleted]

The 600 and 650 are pretty similar in clamping force. Maybe the 600 is a bit lighter. They loosen with use actually. Some people bend the metal part that holds the cups.

I did that and regretted it since the paint started to peel off of the headband as a result (probably) of me stretching it.

If a good deal comes up, I'll probably buy another pair, since they are a good reference, middle of the road headphone.

BTW, if you go for an AKG, I find the K601 slightly 'rounder' than the 701. It's not quite as 'spitty' but some people find them a little flat and boring sounding!!.

K701 isn't my favourite and I tried so hard with it. So many combos, but in the end I gave up. It followed my noticing a 'resonance' very high up somewhere which started to bother me once I knew where it was.

Apparently, there is a little bit of a 'twitch' up there if you measure them.

They need a powerful amp in spite of being only 68 ohms. They need a lot of current to drive them but they are also insensitive buggers!! You'll be using the amp at 12 o clock!!

Ian

[gommer]

Hi Ian,

Since you're dissecting your HP armory here, I might as well add a question. I'm in search for a good isolating HP for home use, so the DT770 seems a good candidate. I own the K701 and also have the Superlux HD661 in the house. Would you be able to describe the signature of the Beyer with reference to both 'phones?

From what i have been reading, I expect that our preferences resemble each other and I value your opinion very much since you know what live, electronic, amplified and acoustic sounds like from daily experience.
The main difference may be that my ears might be less sensitive to sibilance and untill now the K701's have been pleasing me. OTOH, I'm very sensitive to 'collapsing' mids during high power complex output. I experience this currently with the Panda/K701 combo and i'm still in search of the cause. It might be my DAC lacking sufficient power rail decoupling, it might be tuning of the Panda AMP, but it might just as well be a shortcoming of the K701.

Your thoughts on the above and the DT770's are welcome.

Cheers, Marc

[Deleted]

Would you be able to describe the signature of the Beyer with reference to both 'phones?

Hi Marc,

If I'm really honest, no headphone gets close to real sound. There's not the 'surround' feel and (for me) the imaging is pants with most headphones. I occasionally get a feeling of something behind me or outside the head, but very rarely.

I don't dispute it, but when people talk about 'out of head' sound, I don't really get it, but I'm sure they're correct. It may be to do with the shape of my head/ears or something, but for me, a headphone is a poor device for image. Left/right is fine, but I don't even bother listening for the rest!!

For me, tonal aspects are much more important than image so I guess I'm more sensitive to tonal balance than anything else. Others may be more sensitive to 'image' but I can't get a realistic one to be absolutely frank.

I tried for a long time with the K701. At first, I loved the clarity and the openness of the sound. They seem like you are in a bigger room but the music for me sounded slightly further back (or out?) It felt a little uncomfortable at times for me and almost like there was a 'false' sense of space added. For me, music wasn't as integrated as I like and it sometimes sounded as if the musicians weren't in the same room. (They probably weren't) Maybe that means they are incredibly accurate in reproduction of acoustic information (which I think they are) However, for me, it was at the expense of the guts of the music.

I soon started to crave bass and with a lot of recordings, I started to feel that the treble had some kind of problem as well. First, I didn't like one aspect of the treble 'tone'. For me, it felt pinched up and a bit nasal on some recordings that I know were not recorded that way. I hate my own stuff on them so there is something wrong imo in the voicing. The 'nasal' quality started to become the only thing I was noticing, so I took a break after trying so many amps to get some kind of match.

On coming back to the K701, I felt that I could hear not only a 'pinched, nasal' quality in the treble, but also a little peak/resonance of some kind in the higher treble. It was only on certain sounds that I could hear it but then I felt the end was nigh for the K701. That did it for me.

In the end, someone who knows his stuff (Frans) confirmed that there was actually a resonance up there which relieved me to be honest because I was beginning to think there was something wrong with my ears. That did it for me. Call it psychological, but on thinking there was something wrong in the treble and then having it confirmed by someone who really did know caused me to give up on it and find something else.

Christian came to the rescue when he saw I was getting fed up with it and suggested that I try the Beyer DT990 which I had tried years back and didn't like. It may have been altered slightly because for me, that hit the spot and I've stuck with it.

It has a slight ramp in the bass and treble but that's no bad thing since we have no room resonance in our headphones and the lift in the bass makes us perceive the bass perhaps a little more naturally. (Don't forget, it's a matter of taste)

The way Christian described the DT990 was spot on and he also referred it to the DT770 which caught my interest because I often use them for work (along with the DT150), mainly because they're flattering and I'm vain.

The DT770 has a fat bass response and also a more ramped treble than the DT990 so it has a deeper 'u' shape response. On some recordings, it can be way to heavy and for a long time, I kept away from it because of the damned bass response.

I went through various other closed headphones (Audio Technicas) and I really became aware of nasty colourations in them all. I guess internal reflections just aren't for me but I do need a closed headphone for when the TV is on at home. (Rather than a workhorse which is just used for playback and a little bit of monitoring)

For me, the best of the bunch was the DT770, although it does have this huge one note bass on occasions. I can put up with that and prefer it to the strong colourations you get from other makes. There's not really a closed headphone that I'd say is spot on. I think the design of them isn't good for listening really. Senn HD250 II is a clean listen for a closed headphone although once again, many feel that the mids are recessed. I like them.

The Superlux HD661 is a really problematic headphone for me. It doesn't sound at all right to me on acoustic music, which suggests a heavy colouration in the sound. Orchestral music in particular just wasn't right. The orchestra seemed as though it was in another room and the strings were tonally, awful. You don't notice so much on rock music since it has a fat bass response and a strong treble, so it's flattering for that type of music, but orchestral in particular reveals big weaknesses.

The DT770 is way superior to the HD661.

I was pretty heavy handed with the HD661 in a write up that I did on it and I know that Mike liked it and a few others, but not for me. However, I feel kind of harsh on it seeing that it's a very cheap headphone and in relation to others at the same price, I guess Superlux have done a good job on it. However, it just isn't in the same league as the HD681 with a filter that Frans made for me. Frans really did control the HD681 and made it into a great headphone. The HD661 felt like a let down to me and not one of the best.

I was kind of hoping that Superlux would have used the write ups to tweak it but I think it was too late and imo could have been a way better headphone, because they are a good company who know how to produce stunning value.

So, for me the closed headphones that I use for entertainment value are Senn HD250 II, Beyer DT770 pro (80 ohms), Senn HD25 (a superb little headphone if you can wear it) and the wonderful (and coloured) Senn ie8. Those are custom fitted for me because they can be a pig to get a seal for some, but once you get that seal for real, the sound is unbelievable for an iem.

I prefer the K601 to the K701. It's slightly less toppy sounding and easier on the ears. It's actually very good for spoken voice recordings. There's no 'bloom' so mens' voices sound very natural (mostly).

However, as I said earlier, no headphone really reaches the depth and sheer power of real, live music. If I hear myself, I always think that it's to refined and contained and crave more dynamic range and sheer power. It just isn't really there in a headphone which for me, gives an approximation.

Ian

[gommer]

Wow you give me more than i asked for, many thanks for the above effort Ian.

I guess I'll need to hear them (the DT770) first. If you talk about one note bass, that's an objection to my ears. I love to be able to hear every note of a walking bass (that's mid bass) in complex material (something missing in many live venues too).

And i completely agree on the limitations of headphones. I prefer my Klipsch floorstanders on a mediocre amp any minute, but my wife doesn't, nor do my kids 2 floors higher

[Deleted]

Bear in mind, Marc, it's only my opinion and others would swear that the K701 is the best you can buy. I respect their opinions too.

Ian

[mrarroyo]

I listened to the DT770 and did not care for it, it felt like I had strapped a pair of subwoofers to my head! I do prefer the HD661 specially at a small fraction of the cost. But as Ian wrote it is a matter of what YOU like so try them out if you can. Good luck.

[normand]

Been waiting a week now for the 250 ohm version of the 990s. From different posts i've read on this forum I think I will go for the HD 600s rather than the 650s. I also think that a pair of the 601s will work with some of the music I play so that might be a little further down the road.

Whilst I've been waiting for the replacement to arrive, I have been trying the X-Can V8p as a pre-amp, hooked to valve integrated I use. Results are very impressive for such a relatively inexpensive unit. Well pleased.

[Chris53]

Nov 9, 2011 14:24:48 GMT normand said:

Been waiting a week now for the 250 ohm version of the 990s. From different posts i've read on this forum I think I will go for the HD 600s rather than the 650s. I also think that a pair of the 601s will work with some of the music I play so that might be a little further down the road.

Whilst I've been waiting for the replacement to arrive, I have been trying the X-Can V8p as a pre-amp, hooked to valve integrated I use. Results are very impressive for such a relatively inexpensive unit. Well pleased.

I'd agree with Ian's description of the difference between the HD600 & HD650. I have both but I can't listen to anything "seriously" on the HD650 these days. It's too coloured and lacking in a detailed top end in comparison to the HD600 to my ears. That difference became much more obvious using a Panda amp