X Cans and Beyer DT 990 600 ohms

[normand]

Hello all. After some 10 years of not listening to headphones, I have returned to them out of curiosity and was surprised how enjoyable the experience is. My gear is somewhat dated - original X Cans and Senheiser HD 590s. The 590s replaced a pair of Beyer 990s back in the late 1990s (the Beyer were starting to fall apart) and although the Senheiser were ok, I was always a little disappointed. Then I kind of fell out with headphone listening and used only main speakers. Fast-forward 10 years and I would like to buy a pair of Beyer DT 990s again. The question is (forgive the long pre-amble) I have a choice of 32, 250 or 600 ohm 'phones; the 32s, as I understand, are more for mp3s, so I want to get either the 250 or the 600 version. I have been told by a dealer that the 600 version will sound that bit better but he was not sure whether or not my X Can would be powerful enough. I have tried to find out through an internet trawl but with no success. The tech dept at Musical Fidelity were only partly helpful, saying that I would need to bring my X Cans to a dealer and try the two versions. But I think I would struggle to find a dealer who would have both versions available for a demo. Then I stumbled across this site / forum and I thought I would see if any of you good folk could enlighten me. As an aside to the main question, whilst I am quite keen to 're-visit' the Beyer, is there a good alternative? Thanks for reading this and if you are still awake I would appreciate your thoughts.
Norman

[mrarroyo]

Welcome aboard! the X-Can are more than powerful enough (about 1 wpc). Since you have owned them so long you should consider re-capping the unit using one of the kits sold by Mike (Pinkfloyd). BTW, I much prefer the older DT990 than the newer model, as an option the DT880 2003 vintage in 250 ohm sound very nice.

[normand]

Thanks for the reply, mrarroyo (Miguel?). I had a feeling the X-Can would be ok with the 600 ohm DT990 because I only need to turn the amp to quarter to / ten to with the HD590s to get decent levels of sound. Not heard the 880, in fact not heard any semi-open model so this is a possible alternative. Thanks for the tip on re-capping. I will have a look at the different postings to investigate this. I'm guessing my unit won't be too 'shot at' given that it hasn't been used in ten years but it is only a guess. How easy is it to re-cap using the kit? - I'd be starting from scratch but I do have a pal who, for his usual fee of beer and kit kats, could help.
Norman

[Deleted]

Norman, I'd try the 250 ohm against the 600 ohm and see whether there is a great deal of difference first if possible.

I use the DT990 pro 250 ohm version and it really sounds extremely good with the X-Can V1, V2 and V8. I have all three and they are superb.

However, at 600 ohms, they do need quite a bit more in reserve in comparison and so I wonder whether there would be enough power there to deliver good transients.

Whereas the 600 ohm could be smoother in response, you may lose out on some of the impact. Personally, I'm not sure there is a massive difference.

I am very pleased with the 250 ohm though and has become one of my main headphones in a large collection!!

Ian

[elysion]

I'm looking forward to hear your opinion about the differences between the 250 Ohm DT 990 Pro's and the 600 Ohm DT 990 Edition's.

Because you do it, I don't have to spend the money on the 600 Ohm variant... At least not if they are bad. (If they are good, I'm forced to toss out more money...)

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2011 15:20:40 GMT normand said:

Thanks for the reply, mrarroyo (Miguel?). I had a feeling the X-Can would be ok with the 600 ohm DT990 because I only need to turn the amp to quarter to / ten to with the HD590s to get decent levels of sound. Not heard the 880, in fact not heard any semi-open model so this is a possible alternative. Thanks for the tip on re-capping. I will have a look at the different postings to investigate this. I'm guessing my unit won't be too 'shot at' given that it hasn't been used in ten years but it is only a guess. How easy is it to re-cap using the kit? - I'd be starting from scratch but I do have a pal who, for his usual fee of beer and kit kats, could help.
Norman

Hi Norman and Welcome

Can't help much on the Beyer front as I've no knowledge of those cans but what I can say about the kit is that I started out just a couple of years ago as a complete novice having never soldered anything in my life (didn't even own a soldering iron) and still managed to fit one of Mike's kits.
The kits are easy to use with full instructions and they take the x-cans to a much higher level. They are fantastic value for money and give so much bang for so little buck. You will have a great sense of achievement as well when you realise that you upgraded your kit and improved it.

However, if you or friend really can't manage, p.m. Mike about upgrading it for you - it would be very reasonable - but remember, he's a busy man!
So many Choppers, so little time

Jeff

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2011 19:43:50 GMT elysion said:

Because you do it, I don't have to spend the money on the 600 Ohm variant... At least not if they are bad. (If they are good, I'm forced to toss out more money...)

[normand]

Thanks guys. I'd like to try the 250 v 600 comparison, I'd be surprised if I can find a dealer in this part of the world (NW England) that stocks both - I need to start looking and making enquiries. Interesting you say, Ian, that there probably isn't much difference; I guess a 'safe' bet is to go with the 250 version and I'm sure I'll like them. I'm still intrigued by the 600, though. mmm. Dealer search, I think. I'll start by asking round at the Mancheser hi fi show tomorrow.

I do like the idea of trying to fit the upgrade kit and I can appreciate the sense of achievement. Like you, Jeff, I don't have a soldering iron so I'd be starting from the bottom rung. If I make a pigs-ear of it there will hopefully be help at hand. The X-Can amp sounds lovely as it is - I think it's interesting - in fact exciting - that it can be much improved by the this mod. I assume I can find out about where to get the kit, cost, etc from this forum? And B and Q can help me with a soldering iron.

Love that cat

Norman

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2011 21:04:29 GMT normand said:

I do like the idea of trying to fit the upgrade kit and I can appreciate the sense of achievement. Like you, Jeff, I don't have a soldering iron so I'd be starting from the bottom rung. If I make a pigs-ear of it there will hopefully be help at hand. The X-Can amp sounds lovely as it is - I think it's interesting - in fact exciting - that it can be much improved by the this mod. I assume I can find out about where to get the kit, cost, etc from this forum? And B and Q can help me with a soldering iron.

Love that cat

Norman

You will get all the help you need here - I know I have

Try this link www.rock-grotto.co.uk/v1upgradekit.html


Jeff

[normand]

Thanks for that Jeff. Changing 29 capacitors in a unit the size of the X-Can sounds like precise work. Should be an interesting learning curve. Seems a good price for the kind of improvement you describe, too.

Norman

[Deleted]

Interesting you say, Ian, that there probably isn't much difference

That's what I honestly think, yes. In fact, you could end up losing a little dynamic range.

The reason I say this is that the difference between the DT770 pro 80 ohm and 250 ohm was also minimal. Very slight. I compared the two and to be honest, it wasn't really worth worrying about imo.

I know that we read things about mids/bass being different etc., but I think we're talking gnat's whiskers.

In all honesty, the DT250 from the X-Cans is a lovely combination. It's one of my favourite combos.

My X-Cans are heavily modded and I have Little Pinkie power supplies which are truly amazing so they are supplied with a good power source as well.

I think my favourite is still the V2 with it. It's a really musical listen. V8 is cleaner with it but the headphone has a solid bass attack which actually compliments the V8, 'cleaner' sound.

There are also some good deals on the 250 ohm version.

Ian

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2011 21:39:23 GMT normand said:

Thanks for that Jeff. Changing 29 capacitors in a unit the size of the X-Can sounds like precise work. Should be an interesting learning curve. Seems a good price for the kind of improvement you describe, too.

Norman

Norman, it's one of those jobs where as a beginner you might think "Crikey, this looks a bit complicated" , but using Mike's clear and simple instructions and going about it methodically and patiently, you soon finish and think, " It wasn't actually as difficult as I thought!".

One piece of advice I would give though, is if you have genuinely never used a soldering iron before, I would find an old p.c.b. and practice soldering/de-soldering on that first. It's easy though, one of those skills you can pick up very quickly, and you'll soon be making mechanically and electrically sound joints. You think you're the bee's knees - and then you look at Mike's work on the "Work in Progress" thread and you see how it looks when a real expert does it

Its a great price for the huge improvement you gain,

Jeff

[normand]

Thanks Ian. My brother-in-law has the V2 and he uses Senheiser HD650s which do sound nice. His X-Cans V2 are not modded in any way, though. The power supply you mention is another upgrade route I was unaware of - where does all this end?! Jeff, I'm still trying to decide if I'm brave enough to have a go. I'm quite excited at the prospect but I will have my pal, James on hand to guide me if I do go for the DIY upgrade.

I went to the Manchester hi fi show today. It was a little disappointing to be honest - a bit thin on good hi fi, not as many rooms as usual. I did get to hear some Grado 325is which were rather nice - strong bass, powerful and bags of detail. I would like to hear some Beyer 880s or 990s against the Grado. All fascinating stuff.

Norman

[Deleted]

I had the first UK 325i and wasn't too fussed in the end.

First off, I expected a gold coloured one and thought they had diddled me and I wrote to John Grado who replied to me directly, telling me how lucky I was to get the first UK 325i.

It seemed better than the original 325 which I also had and had more bass punch but in the end, I found it fatiguing. At first, the detail slaps you in the face, but eventually, you start to crave something less shrill.

I currently use the 125i as well, with the soft foam pads. Much improved on the old one with bowls imo. It seems to be a little hidden headphone that hides between the SR80i (I also have that) and the sr225i. It's almost a forgotten headphone, but I actually do like it on portable amps since it's only 32 ohms. It doesn't have really deep bass, but you feel that there is a solid bass there. (Mid bass)

I like them anyway.

My favourite headphones are:

HD600, K601, DT770 pro, DT990 pro, Grado 125i, HD25, HD681b, and for portable - portapro, and the wonderful IE8 for which I'm going to have custom moulds made. I also like the Klipsch x8 and x10 very much.

Now there's a list!!! (and that's not all of the headphones that I have either!!!!)

The DT990 has a slightly lifted bass and a slightly lifted treble so it's a lively listen.

I would say the most neutral is the K601 but many find it boring .....

There are two versions of the Little Pinkie. I have both - one has a plastic surround and the other metal. Both are fine, but my preferred version is the tank like one, made in metal. Both silent runners and Mike makes sure that hums and buzzes just don't get through and they deliver a nice clean current for the X-Cans to take as much as they need.

They clean the whole act up and you get a terrific 'slam' and inky silence when there's no sound. I haven't heard stock V1 and V2 so I can only comment on the modified versions and both are really good amps. I also have an x10-D buffer connected to my V8 which gives a little more depth to the sound.

As you say - it does go on and on, but in all honesty, my first amp, the V2 with little Pinkie is still my class amp. It's a really fun sound.

Ian

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2011 18:53:12 GMT normand said:

The power supply you mention is another upgrade route I was unaware of - where does all this end?!

Norman

It doesn't

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2011 21:52:12 GMT @ekbluesboy said:

Oct 22, 2011 18:53:12 GMT normand said:

The power supply you mention is another upgrade route I was unaware of - where does all this end?!

Norman

It doesn't

fast forward to 2:00 mins....

[normand]

Other than buying both versions (250 and 600) of the DT990s, I can't see (having checked possibilities on the 'net and which headphones some local dealers stock) how I can compare. So I've decided to get the 600 version. The reason in the end was that I borrowed a pals DT831s (250 ohm) and my brother-in-laws HD650s (300 ohm). Both of these reach decent listening levels between quarter to and ten to with CD as source, a little higher with LP. My Senn HD 590s are 120 ohm and the volume control setting is not that much less. With so much reserve I'm confident the 600s will work and I can exchange them if they don't. I got the premium version as there isn't a pro 600 version but I'm happy with this as I suspect it will be more comfortable and I prefer the straight cable to the coiled one. The price difference is surprising, though, at nearly £100.

That's an amazing list of headphones, Ian. Do you use different 'phones for different kinds of music or do you rotate them as you feel like it? I like the idea of owning a small number of pairs, in fact I have enjoyed listening to my 590s alongside the two borrowed pairs. I do have to remind myself, though, that I should be listening to, and enjoying music - not comparing hi-fi products!

I'm going to spend a couple of weeks or so getting to know the new 'phones before looking into the modification / power supply upgrade. I like to do upgrades one at a time so as to enjoy each step. Which is the one to do first? I like the idea of the power supply first as it is the easiest. Or should it be modding the X-Can first and later getting the Little Pinkie?

One final question, there seems to be a real level of devotion to the MF headphone amps here. I do like my X-Can but I've never heard any other amp. Is there something 'special' about these? Are there equally excellent products that headphone enthusiasts use instead or as well as?

Norman

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Norman,

I wouldn't have gone with the 600 ohm DT-990.

The X-CANS (V1) has 100mW (milliwatt) output into a 40 ohm load so with a 600 ohm load the output will be about 20mW per channel.

Somebody mentioned "1 watt"... no no, that's the V2... the V1 is 100mW into 40 ohm or 20mW into 600ohm (approx).

I think you would be better off with the older style DT-990 / 250 ohms.

Just my two cents worth.

[Deleted]

That's an amazing list of headphones, Ian. Do you use different 'phones for different kinds of music or do you rotate them as you feel like it?

I've kind of learned their individual strengths and weaknesses so I'm able to match the headphone to what I'm listening to and which amp I'm using.

I have loads of them all over the place and have become pretty unfussy as to which brand/make. They all have their quirks.

I would really think twice about a 600 ohm headphone. You'll get sound fine, but you may well lose some of the dynamic range. I seem to remember that 600 ohms was like an industry standard because headphone outs were shared in parallel in studios so having a higher impedance meant that a shared output made the output see 300 ohms, not 600. Therefore, if you had 4 the output would see 150 ohms.

It wasn't really just to do with sound. You need a powerful amp for 600 ohms and I really wouldn't go so high.

It may end up being a little dull sounding, with a weaker bass and less attack on sounds.

the 250 works well with X-Cans.

The reason for all the love of X-Cans? Good value. Good sound. Highly tweakable. Just a good amp.

Now I've said that, someone else will pop in and say there's better. Yes, but look at the cost and the options for power supplies, tube rolling and even the kit supplied by Mike. It has lots of potential and I really have liked them since my first one. I always return to the X-Cans after a little wander to something else.

V2 is my favourite.

Seriously, the 250 would be better and 600 isn't really worth the chance.

Ian

[mrarroyo]

Oops, I did say 1W in reference above. I thought it was the V2 ... sorry.

[normand]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm in slight panic mode now, although if the 600 ohm version don't work with the X-Cans I will be able to change them. To be honest, I don't mind if this version does not have bags of slam, I would like a detailed, maybe slightly softer sound than the 'phones I am listening to right now (mine and 2 borrowed pairs). But if they do feel a little restrained I can swap for the 250 versions and at least I will not be thinking 'I wonder what that 600 version would have been like...'. Miguel, your 1w reference was in the mix when I was deciding what to do, but no harm done; I'll see how they sound when they land.

I did something else on impulse this morning (well, after a couple of hours deliberation) which was to buy the X-Can v8 from e bay. Unusual for me as I usually spend ages dithering over these things but there were good comments posted on this site and, as it wasn't a bad price, I bought it. Foolish? A worthwhile move? And how will the 600 version work with this newer version?

Thanks again for your help,

Norman

[Deleted]

Norman, the 600 ohm version will give you sound but I wonder whether you will get a proper dynamic from them to be honest. You may not notice at first, until you get a dynamic, punchy recording, when the amp runs out of steam to give proper attacks on loud sections.

I have the V8 which is very good, but again, I have never considered using a 600 ohm headphone with them.

You'll hear music, but for me, the purpose of the amp is to deliver a proper dynamic range.

Ian

[normand]

I'll let you know about the dynamics when it arrives and I have put it through its paces. I will try a range of recordings, cd and vinyl, before I am happy that the amp and 600 version are a reasonable match. If it runs out of steam I'll change it. I appreciate your thoughts on this and I'll report back soon. One other question, Ian; which would you advise that I get first once I get round to improving the X-Can - the Little Pinkie or the upgrade kit?

Norman

[Deleted]

Mike's the one to advise you on that, Norman.

My feeling is that if you are happy with a 600 ohm headphone, then perhaps up the power supply. That will provide a better dynamic because I have feeling it will have its work cut out for it on that kind of load.

Ian

[pcourtney1]

many years ago, we used to connect headphones in parallel at the studio, and 600 ohm cans were considered ideal for this type of thing, I still have my old AKG K240 monitors, they are rated max input power of 200mW, but I plugged them into my X-Can v2 amp anyway and they sound really good, not quite on a par with my 400 ohm K-340's :-)

so even though I think (like many others) that 600ohm is not really suited to home listening usage, some cans may be OK with some amps, but there is no real reason to have anything more than 400 ohm !