XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 3, 2011 21:33:17 GMT
Yeah, we need to be seriously talking about programmes that can deloud those bloody CDs with the Loudness War "button" on. The Good Soup CD angered me and woke me up after standing by the byline for sometime already. Really far too long as I listen mostly to good audiophile music. I like very much the Good Soup CD overall but I can't get along with the loud "button" on. So shoot. For free the best!  Thanks all. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2011 21:49:19 GMT
Chong
I use SeeDeClip Duo Pro (Cute Studio) with good results on material that hasn't been irreparably damaged.
I don't claim it to be the best, but it suits my kind of use, and is reasonably priced.
Alex
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Oct 4, 2011 0:12:34 GMT
Very interesting, I am curious...
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 4, 2011 4:59:44 GMT
Chong I use SeeDeClip Duo Pro (Cute Studio) with good results on material that hasn't been irreparably damaged. I don't claim it to be the best, but it suits my kind of use, and is reasonably priced. Alex Thanks. I'm going to compile a list. So yours will be the first deloudness programme on the list for those interested to investigate. Click on links for the latest. 1) SeeDeClip Duo Pro (Cute Studio) £24.99 (wef 10th April 2011 to avoid confusion over UK or US dates  )So check the net and report more if found! |
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 4, 2011 5:43:11 GMT
What a mastering engineer felt about the loudness war. Mastering engineer Greg Calbi: What Loudness War meant to us hifi nuts explained and demoed:
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 4, 2011 5:57:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 6:53:02 GMT
Two things need to be separated.
Clipping and compression.
This last one is used in the loudness wars.
Clipping is carelessness of the sound engineer and/or sometimes used as a cheap way of gaining some ‘loudness’ without resorting to compression.
The problem with clipping is it CANNOT be corrected anymore once clipped.
Clipping is similar to a (digital) overexposed picture.
There is simply NO info left and the missing part is merely an educated quess, though may sound more pleasant than when NOT de-clipped.
Although there are many de-clip programs such as Sony’s SFx and even the( freeware) Audacity has it, all these programs can do is ‘correct’ slightly clipped signals that occur every now and then.
Also the better ones need to be configured on each individual track to get the best results.
This too is a ‘questimation’ based on algorithms and NOT an accurate recalculation of the original signal.
I used these programs and clipped perfectly fine rips in several degrees and and the un-clipped.
Only slightly clipped songs were sounding similar to the original yet the signals were different.
For me not worth the trouble for others it may be.
The real loudness war problem lies in the COMPRESSION that is performed in order to ‘win’ the loudness wars.
If this were done with a certain (KNOWN) algorithm correction MIGHT have been ‘reversible’ (sort of like Dolby and other compressions)
Most people do not care if compression is used and even like it (FM radio, people recording with Dolby-B on and playing back with Dolby off) so follow the money and you know who will win.
Yes the general public and those who want their money.
Audiophile labels and recordings will still remain.
Mainstream artists will likely go with the flow… they too need the income.
Loudness wars have evolved out of the advertising business where it is almost obligated.
It is why advertisements sound so loud, yet when we look at the VU meters it is just as loud as the music played (the peaks that is, not average levels) and so they ‘comply’ to rules yet sound loud.
It’s also done in radio (yes FM too) using optimod.
There are many different degrees of compression done AFTER the mastering and also during the mixing.
Since electrical audiosignals are an addition of all waveforms and not separated any compression done on these signals simply cannot be undone anymore.
Programs may try to and some may even ‘improve’ the sound but everything that is clipped and/or compressed can NEVER be corrected anymore.
What is compression ?
a signal's amplitude DIFFERENCE is made smaller.
Let's say the softest part is -40 dB and the peak -1dB when signals are compressed linear (remember each instrument or mic might have their OWN compression settings) the softest signal may become amplified to -30 dB and the loudest remains -1dB.
BUT mostly with loudness wars compression it is NOT linear at all and only the louder parts are reduced in amplitude (not clipped)
The lower amplitudes are not amplified but rather 'lifted' closer to the peak values.
Then the total result is scaled to (almost) clipping level (FSD) and mastered.
The result is almost the same (softer passages are louder) but not quite as more distortion is added because of the non-linear behaviour of the compressor(s) and since they all have their own characteristics/settings it cannot be undone anymore.
The louder passages are simply closer to the average levels so overall it sounds louder yet the music essence remained.
It’s a fight that can never be won (BIG money is involved).
Slight improvements may be had sonically if the (somewhat near) correct settings are used.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 9:27:29 GMT
Interesting.....thanks Frans. Alan |
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toad
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Post by toad on Oct 4, 2011 11:19:37 GMT
The loudness war will be won when more people demand better quality. It's already happening to a certain extent. Not many years ago 128K MP3s were considered CD quality by the masses. Now most MP3s are 256K or better. Soon FLAC will become commonplace and then people will start to question what they are hearing on badly compressed recordings.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Oct 4, 2011 21:18:06 GMT
It's awful how many CDs I have ignored because of their inherent loudness. I will check out the software suggestions...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 22:00:46 GMT
I too have used SeeDeClip for a while and found it be quite effective for making some nasty clipped audio more listenable.
I have also used SoundForge, though not the latest ver10, this I found to be over complicated for relatively simple tasks. Maybe 10 is better?
Again iZotopeRX is a powerful programme with which I was never particularly familiar, again due to its over complex (to me) way of going about things.
A friend of mine has introduced me to another excellent sound/audio manipulation programme, it's hellishly expensive and is very powerful and intuitive, I'm lucky to be allowed to use it. I'm just starting to get my head around it but what I have used so far has been easy to learn and use to get good results. The declipping part of the programme is especially effective, outperforming SDC.
That said, I'd use SDC as it's very cheap and does a decent job.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 5, 2011 7:28:25 GMT
I have also used SoundForge, though not the latest ver10, this I found to be over complicated for relatively simple tasks. Maybe 10 is better? Eh, you can use Soudforge for declipping? I though it's more a studio mixing desk for recording. Again iZotopeRX is a powerful programme with which I was never particularly familiar, again due to its over complex (to me) way of going about things. That's what it is all about. A professional studio software with lots of other plugins that can do a lot of other things to the sound. I think it will be very easy for those guys studying SAE.  A friend of mine has introduced me to another excellent sound/audio manipulation programme, it's hellishly expensive and is very powerful and intuitive, I'm lucky to be allowed to use it. I'm just starting to get my head around it but what I have used so far has been easy to learn and use to get good results. The declipping part of the programme is especially effective, outperforming SDC. Can you expand the list same as what I have done to share with all. Actually in an age of digital manipulation that started ages ago, yes, DIGITAL MANIPULATION (DSP) and not a claimed PERFECT SOUND FOREVER as always repeatedly argued in many audio forums, it's quite possible to get back as close as possible to the original sound if the researched algorithm is good. This will depend on how experient the designers are. Of course, the final results must still be judged and from Chris and the feedbacks, it seems to work quite well at this stage although not ideal yet. Anyway, whatever declipping algorithm is still better than none, right? Hopefully those designers will get it right eventually.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2011 9:16:18 GMT
Chong I tried it out once in SF9, but if I remember correctly,there are only a limited number of clips that can be restored. Alex Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2011 19:02:38 GMT
Compression was also used on Vinyl because of surface noise and quiet music while also compressing the higher volumes to avoid distortion. (Which even varies from the start of the record to the end) This didn't translate particularly well to the early CDs so digital copies in those CDs could sound particularly nasty. Also, in an attempt to get more than 20 minutes on a side, the overall volume had to be turned down so there was no bleedover between grooves so compression was needed in order to make sure that surface noise didn't interfere as well. Seems sad that we were so desperate to get 30 minutes on one side of an LP!! It was also used on FM to make sure that hiss didn't interfere with the music. So originally, well used compression was a 'tool' to overcome the difficulties of the medium being used. CD's though have sadly continued the tradition with the big dynamic range available, the possibilities for massive volume have grown and unscrupulous record companies decided that getting music as loud as possible would attract more listeners and so we ended up with who could get the loudest sound out. The sad thing is the dynamic range suffers terribly as a result and it can be really fatiguing. Try telling producers that though!! Well used compression isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ian |
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Oct 7, 2011 20:36:34 GMT
It's all about finding the right balance.
Gosh why is the mix of "An End Has A Start" by the Editors so muddy? I could be worse but I really have to play with the software solutions.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 7, 2011 21:38:46 GMT
It's all about finding the right balance. Gosh why is the mix of "An End Has A Start" by the Editors so muddy? I could be worse but I really have to play with the software solutions. I'm almost in business now. After ripping the Happy Soup tracks to analyse and play play with them yesterday, I was called to do errands by my parents. So maybe today Saturday something will come up.  This is track 1 of Happy Soup. Obviously it's bad bad soup here as confirmed thru listening earlier.  Btw, what software solution are you considering to resolve your issue? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2011 23:29:03 GMT
It's all about finding the right balance. Gosh why is the mix of "An End Has A Start" by the Editors so muddy? I could be worse but I really have to play with the software solutions. I'm almost in business now. After ripping the Happy Soup tracks to analyse and play play with them yesterday, I was called to do errands by my parents. So maybe today Saturday something will come up. This is track 1 of Happy Soup. Obviously it's bad bad soup here as confirmed thru listening earlier. Btw, what software solution are you considering to resolve your issue? Chong Are you able to UL this file to me using something like FileMail ( free for occasional use ) It would be interesting to see what SeeDeClip Duo Pro can do with it, although it does look a bit like a basket case.  Alex |
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 8, 2011 0:48:55 GMT
I'm almost in business now. After ripping the Happy Soup tracks to analyse and play play with them yesterday, I was called to do errands by my parents. So maybe today Saturday something will come up. This is track 1 of Happy Soup. Obviously it's bad bad soup here as confirmed thru listening earlier. Btw, what software solution are you considering to resolve your issue? Chong Are you able to UL this file to me using something like FileMail ( free for occasional use ) It would be interesting to see what SeeDeClip Duo Pro can do with it, although it does look a bit like a basket case. Alex Yes, sure. You've got pm. It's always better more brains put into the same issue and better solutions will come out. It's always the case. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2011 4:12:51 GMT
The attached .jpg image shows the file received from Chong in it's original highly clipped original form. The centre image shows the same file after being processed by SeeDeClip Duo Pro (Cute Studios) The bottom image is after the level was normalised to 0.5dB using Sound Forge 9. Does it sound better ? I will leave that to Chong to decide, as it is not what I would normally listen to. Alex Attachments:
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 8, 2011 6:02:17 GMT
So far I have a quick comparison between the originals and the 2 declipped versions from Alex thru just a gaming HP and laptop audio of 96khz 24bits internal sound card which I found out after playing with Foobar. Even thru such a low end sytem, the declipped versions, the vocal sounded like a generation or 2 down. This is the most obvious hearing differences. In track 1, the obvious drum clipping in the original is still there in the declipped version. So nothing can be done by the SDC in that area. In track 2, as the original is not too badly over clipped, I would say the SDC done a pretty good job in keeping the level good but the declipping added an obvious hollow honky tonk sound to the background. Mind us, all this were done digitally and not analogue. Should be perfect, right? That's all folks. If you wanted to sample what the SDC can do to some of the Happy Soup tracks, pm Alex or me for the 2 track samples as shown by Alex in the screen shots. Hopefully I can try another declipping programme to see more of the effect. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2011 6:24:59 GMT
Chong
Did you turn up the volume up quite a bit to compensate for the greatly reduced overall loudness ?
Alex
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 8, 2011 6:33:06 GMT
Chong Did you turn up the volume up quite a bit to compensate for the greatly reduced overall loudness ? Alex Yes, I did. On the laptop, 3/10 for loud track and 5/10 for the declipped track. Now just preliminary and have to listen more to the tracks to sense more of the differences. |
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 8, 2011 8:18:41 GMT
Alright, round 2 listening thru the same setup after sleeping for 2 hours. So can't say it's fatigue any more. Overall, still pretty the same except now I take back some. Still the voice and overall picture is clearer in the clipped versions. The unclipped versions I wouldn't say it's 2 generation down now. I will put it at 1 generation down. Also, I take back the honky tonk remark for the unclipped versions. Round 3 will be coming to get to the truth and nothing but the truth. |
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