AV Network

[XTRProf]

Hi guys,

I think this is the appropriate place to beachhead. Care to share how your AV network is coming around so that I can also follow to implement when good to have.

Now my network ..........



The all important fibre optic 50 Mbs to be upgraded to 100 Mbs after contract expires as I discover it will need to be at least 70Mbs (Max) inorder to cover 3D streaming specs as well. Well, specs and in real time is different as we know. That's another story altogather. Here:






What's the most reliable way to test for speed performance? I have the Cisco router software and it's not getting too good a speed yet. Maybe have to tune up here and there to go faster.



Ah, one of my beloved Cisco E4200 giving inhouse digital "Love Is In the Air" radio waves and resting high up near the ceiling for a tactical advantage. I have 2 and the newtork wire, as seen in the picture, is still not routed to upstair yet as just have not enough time to do so.







Now my recently purchase large Samsung 3D TV which I like a lot as it's smart. This is currently my centre piece of adoration of ALL gears. Even my father, after complaining a lot, is beginning to pipe down as it's that much better than the old Sony CRT that it replaced.









Care to share yours. This AV network is definitely the future whether we like it or not like my father.

[Deleted]

My AV (or I should rather say just "V" as the "A" part is limited to the TV speakers)

Display:

- JVC HV-36P38S 36" HDTV CRT

Sources:

- Panasonic RP82 SDI modded
- Oppo 980H
- HTPC (with LG BD unit) 8 x 1TB HDD
- HDMI DVB-T tuner

Video Processors:

- DVDO VP50 with SDI module
- Lumagen Radiance XS

+ calibration material, software and probes (colorimiter and spectrometer)

[XTRProf]

Sept 20, 2011 9:18:26 GMT @javier said:

Sources:

- HTPC (with LG BD unit) 8 x 1TB HDD

Video Processors:

- DVDO VP50 with SDI module

That's a lot of storage space there. You must be having a lot of hirez music and videos. Raid? 6 cores processor?

I heard about DVDO. That's a video upsampler? Can also do composite video upsampling, right?

Sept 20, 2011 9:18:26 GMT @javier said:

+ calibration material, software and probes (colorimiter and spectrometer)

Oh, you are more advance than me in that area. What brand calibration material, colorimeter and spectrometer you have? I'm just using off the net calibration settings for my Samsung. It should not be as individual TV needs different setting. Yeah, after calibration the colour is so much better and like the picture in the cinema.

Btw, your AV system connected wirelessly? I'm just beginning to get this in place. Until now I'm still figuring out how I connect my DLNA HP laptop to my DLNA Samsung TV. The TV is supposed to be able to see what I'm doing on my laptop.

[Deleted]

No RAID, just independent volumes to store basically BD and HD DVD rips for better covenince.

The HTPC has a Core i5 540 CPU, more than enough for this task, could even be considered overkill. Graphics card is an ATI 5770 fan less (passive) with HDMI out.

Both DVDO VP50 and Radiance are far more than "upsamplers", they are extremelly powerful and sofisticated video processors, specially the Radiance XS (MSRP 2.995 USD). Explaining what they can do will take a few pages of this thread, but to answer your question, yes they can take a composite, SVideo, component, VGA or RGBs signal and upscale it to HDMI.

For calibration I use HCFR, Calman and Chromapure software and Xrite Display 2 and i1 Pro as hardware.
IMHO proper calibration (brightness, contrast, gamma curve, gray scale and color decoding/gamut) is paramount to have a decent picture. Unlike in the audio world, there are well defined standars for every picture parameter that the industry complies with. If you want to watch a film the way the director intended you have to calibrate to those standars. There are no "beautiful", "intense", "lively", etc. colours, there are either accurate or inaccurate colours, no room left for objetivism .

No wireless, all cabled. Sources and processors are stacked under the TV.

[XTRProf]

Sept 21, 2011 9:22:03 GMT @javier said:

No RAID, just independent volumes to store basically BD and HD DVD rips for better covenince.

The HTPC has a Core i5 540 CPU, more than enough for this task, could even be considered overkill. Graphics card is an ATI 5770 fan less (passive) with HDMI out.

My next thing on the wish list will be a Raid with 6 cores when I have the time. Really super overkill even by 3D iso std. But then I will be using it for music as well and that's what it may help to make things "better".

Sept 21, 2011 9:22:03 GMT @javier said:

Both DVDO VP50 and Radiance are far more than "upsamplers", they are extremelly powerful and sofisticated video processors, specially the Radiance XS (MSRP 2.995 USD). Explaining what they can do will take a few pages of this thread, but to answer your question, yes they can take a composite, SVideo, component, VGA or RGBs signal and upscale it to HDMI.

Oh yeah, they are expensive alright. I know that. Btw, how's the video processing via HDMI to your TV? Also, how's the upscaled video? I'm not sure whether they are more advance than the TV processor such as the Samsung or the processor in the OPPO 93 or 95. Video processors are getting more and more advance everytime.

Sept 21, 2011 9:22:03 GMT @javier said:

IMHO proper calibration (brightness, contrast, gamma curve, gray scale and color decoding/gamut) is paramount to have a decent picture. Unlike in the audio world, there are well defined standars for every picture parameter that the industry complies with. If you want to watch a film the way the director intended you have to calibrate to those standars. There are no "beautiful", "intense", "lively", etc. colours, there are either accurate or inaccurate colours, no room left for objetivism .

How I wish there is a std for audio as well. Then no more arguments. I totally agreed to see what the directors wanted us to see, TV should be calibrated. However, THX certified calibrators are not all the time in agreement with what should be the righter setting as changing one parameter can also be compensated by another. Example in my LED TV, I can lower the brightness and up the LED backlight and still get the same measurement, according to those experts. But that doesn't mean, it don't affect the picture in other parameters for the 2 different settings. Also, some like higher sharpness but some calibrators like 0 sharpness.

I think I had spoken too soon. It looks like another ambiguity as audio.

[Deleted]

www.videoessentials.com/

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 10:23:09 GMT XTRProf said:

My next thing on the wish list will be a Raid with 6 cores when I have the time. Really super overkill even by 3D iso std. But then I will be using it for music as well and that's what it may help to make things "better".

For home use I'm not keen on RAID arrays they offer extra protection but at the expense of wasted capacity. If you have the originals there is no big problem in case of drive failure except you'll have to rip them again so no RAID for me. It is a different story with Company storage where reliability and security is the top priority.

Sept 21, 2011 10:23:09 GMT XTRProf said:

Oh yeah, they are expensive alright. I know that. Btw, how's the video processing via HDMI to your TV? Also, how's the upscaled video? I'm not sure whether they are more advance than the TV processor such as the Samsung or the processor in the OPPO 93 or 95. Video processors are getting more and more advance everytime.

Video processors are a niche product, production runs are very, very small and lots of research and programming are used so prices are quite high.
Samsung has one of the best processors of all TV makers, I could send you some of the reviews I've written of some Sammy tellys but they are in Spanish Also their calibration controls are extremelly good and can produce very accurate pictures.
Good video processing is necessary for SD image but BD's 1080p needs no processing whatsoever and when output through HDMI ALL BD players will output the same image quality, the only difference there could be is a faulty or badly designed MPEG decoder. So if you are going to buy a BD player look in the functionality and ergonomics department only unless you also want to play DVD or SD material.
Both Oppos are fantastic machines with great SD processing but they don't quite reach the level of the Radiance XS which is, of course, logical.

Upscaled DVDs look sublime in my system, obviously not the same as BDs which are a little better but still bl*ody good but former are getting cheaper by the day. 5-7€ DVD Vs 15-30€ BD so IMO the bang for the buck is higher.

Sept 21, 2011 10:23:09 GMT XTRProf said:

How I wish there is a std for audio as well. Then no more arguments. I totally agreed to see what the directors wanted us to see, TV should be calibrated. However, THX certified calibrators are not all the time in agreement with what should be the righter setting as changing one parameter can also be compensated by another. Example in my LED TV, I can lower the brightness and up the LED backlight and still get the same measurement, according to those experts. But that doesn't mean, it don't affect the picture in other parameters for the 2 different settings. Also, some like higher sharpness but some calibrators like 0 sharpness.
I think I had spoken too soon. It looks like another ambiguity as audio.

The means are not important, the result is. It doesn't matter how you get there as long as you don't bring another problem elswhere. Besides, each TV has its own "character" and likes to be adjusted in its own way so a workflow that works great in one can be a disaster in another.
There are patterns specifiaclly to adjust sharpness to a point where there are no artifacts like ringing or increased mosquito noise. Again, it depends on each model specifics but most often sharpness is better left at 0. I like a softer natural more film looking picture which is what you get in the theater not an artificially "enhanced" one full of artificial "fake" detail that wasn't present on the original source.
Most displays are far from perfect and compromises have to be made when adjusting, is not so much a matter of ambiguity as of going the "least" dammage route.


@alex

That is the disk I started with a long way back. It is easy to use, you start learning and is better than nothing. With it you can improve picture using the TVs basic controls but the results will be light years from those of a true calibration made with real tools. Try adjusting white from 5% to 100% intensity to D65 by eye... impossible.

[Deleted]

@alexthat is the disk I started with a long way back. It is easy to use, you start learning and is better than nothing. With it you can improve picture using the TVs basic controls but the results will be light years from those of a true calibration made with real tools. Try adjusting white from 5% to 100% intensity to D65 by eye... impossible.

Javier
There is now a BluRay version. I agree about the the previous version, as I own one and used to regularly read WideScreen Review where it originated. THe BR version although simplified may still be worthwhile for novice uses like Chong ?
Alex

[Deleted]

Those type of discs are very good as initiation tools. They are good for learning the concepts and let you adjust basic stuff so the answer would be yes, it is worthwhile getting one. Once the basic stuff is well understood he could take the next step which involves lots of reading and some more complex things. It isn't rocket science and anyone can learn it though some will need longer than others.

[Deleted]

Good video processing is necessary for SD image but BD's 1080p needs no processing whatsoever and when output through HDMI ALL BD players will output the same image quality, the only difference there could be is a faulty or badly designed MPEG decoder. So if you are going to buy a BD player look in the functionality and ergonomics department only unless you also want to play DVD or SD material.Both Oppos are fantastic machines with great SD processing but they don't quite reach the level of the Radiance XS which is, of course, logical.

Hi Javier.
That is not strictly correct.Just as audio SQ via SPDIF can vary depending on the quality of the power supply etc., so can Video quality via HDMI due to the quality of the power supply.
Quite some time back I posted about the modification of a couple of Oppo DV981 HD players where the SMPS high voltage bridge rectifiers were replaced by the faster, slow recovery BYV26C and a 100nF 630V fitted across the main big electro. The result was an improvement in SQ via coax SPDIF, and surprisingly an improvement via HDMI in the picture via a friend's 720P projector.
It had a more "glossy" picture. My friend then modified his too with similar results.
Alex

P.S.
A friend who owns the new Oppo 95 tells me that Oppo now uses
fast diodes in that area .

[Deleted]

Alex,
What do you mean by "glossy"? do you think could it be measured with the right tool? I ask because if you change light output the calibration will need to be readjusted and "potentital" benefit lost. Remember there is a standard to adhere to. Higher luminance/iluminance translates to lower gamma -> debraded picture unless corrected. Same with colours, say the modded smps gave "greener" greens that could mean a higher stauration of the green primary, a higher luminance of the same primary or a greener gray scale (makes white seem brighter as is the colour with the highest luminance) but in all cases there would be no advantage due to needed correction.
One area where better power supply will indeed render true benefit is in PDPs (plasma display panel) but no so much in audiophile style regulation but in sheer power reserve, it'll help erradicate one of plasmas (and CRTs) mayor flaws and that would be ABL (Average Brightness Level) limitation.

I've tested from middle of the road Pannys, Sonys, Sammys, LGs and you name it to the most expensive Denon, Marantz and Pioneer BD players with the best digital panels and I have yet to see a difference in the HDMI output of any of them playing 1080p24 material when properly configured (as in all picture degrading "gadgets" shut down).

[Deleted]

Hi Javier
I guess you could say it was less "grainy" looking.
It's a bit hard to explain, but the improvement was quite obvious via the Panasonic projector on the large screen.
Alex

[XTRProf]

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

For home use I'm not keen on RAID arrays they offer extra protection but at the expense of wasted capacity. If you have the originals there is no big problem in case of drive failure except you'll have to rip them again so no RAID for me. It is a different story with Company storage where reliability and security is the top priority.

Oh, I wouldn't speak too fast on that yet as we are getting more and more dependent on the HDD at home too as we are storing lots of hirez audio and video files as well as pictures and other important documents like white papers and assignments. Somethimes getting a bit too lazy to backup and bam the HDD going conk.

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

Samsung has one of the best processors of all TV makers, I could send you some of the reviews I've written of some Sammy tellys but they are in Spanish Also their calibration controls are extremelly good and can produce very accurate pictures.

I didn't know you do Sammy reviews. You a computer/video consultant? Yeah, sent me or better still post your writeups here for all to learn as well. Spanish no problem. It will be good for Z as well. Just use the translator.

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

Good video processing is necessary for SD image but BD's 1080p needs no processing whatsoever and when output through HDMI ALL BD players will output the same image quality, the only difference there could be is a faulty or badly designed MPEG decoder.

Actually, video processing don't stop at just upscaling SD videos processing but also at how HD 1080p videos are processed too. That's why different TV will look different for different video processing chips in them. The better chip will have a better video algorithm processing. Yeah, better researched and implemented dsps for those with better video images. Just like dacs are using more advance dsps in them nowadays instead of just processing the digital signal and claiming it as perfect technically and there should not be any subjective difference. Am I correct for the video part?

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

Upscaled DVDs look sublime in my system, obviously not the same as BDs which are a little better but still bl*ody good but former are getting cheaper by the day. 5-7€ DVD Vs 15-30€ BD so IMO the bang for the buck is higher.

I wouldn't say again too fast for that. Wait till you go pass 50" or 60". Even much more for projectors.

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

The means are not important, the result is. It doesn't matter how you get there as long as you don't bring another problem elswhere. Besides, each TV has its own "character" and likes to be adjusted in its own way so a workflow that works great in one can be a disaster in another.

That's precisely the problem that I observed from those THX certified calibrators. No 2 sets of brightness and backlight adjustments for the same attainment WILL bring the same attainments for OTHER parameters. This is precisely what's happening in audio. Same attainments or measurements for some parameters but sound different as there are more to things than just those parameters. Yeah, it affect other parameters. MInd us, we are talking of supposedly PERFECT digital signals and very low measured errors (beyond the resolution of what is humanely possible?) here now. Yet, the difference.

Sept 21, 2011 12:46:23 GMT @javier said:

I like a softer natural more film looking picture which is what you get in the theater not an artificially "enhanced" one full of artificial "fake" detail that wasn't present on the original source.

There you see, there are still differences despite the stds.

[XTRProf]

Javier,

What do you think of this latest calibration disc? Also, is there still no calibration std for 3d yet?

[Deleted]

Chong
Back when I had a laser disc player and used the Video Essentials DVD, for calibration, I found this magazine gave a wealth of information.
Alex


widescreenreview.com/

[XTRProf]

Sept 21, 2011 22:54:18 GMT @sandyk said:

Back when I had a laser disc player and used the Video Essentials DVD, for calibration, I found this magazine gave a wealth of information.
Alex


widescreenreview.com/

In fact, I have that Joe Kane's disc both in LD and DVD, I think. Now I'm looking for something more present for my 3D TV. My TV now just the basic calibration as recommended on the net for my model. But with that, it's already looking very good for bluray and dvd for those videos with accurate colours.

The new disc as shown is the recommended Bluray calibration disc for Oppo, fyi. That's why I trying to get expert Javier what he knows about that disc and as well as any calibration for 3d yet. Really, I'm not sure whether there is any 3D calibration in the new bluray.

Maybe I should wait longer before pulling the trigger to see whether there are any better ones coming out with 3D calibration as my "calibrated" TV is already looking good now.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

Oh, I wouldn't speak too fast on that yet as we are getting more and more dependent on the HDD at home too as we are storing lots of hirez audio and video files as well as pictures and other important documents like white papers and assignments. Somethimes getting a bit too lazy to backup and bam the HDD going conk.

All material I have in the HTPC is "non critical" as I also have the discs. If a drive fails I just have to re-rip all its content.
Big RAID arrays can be a PIA. Rebuild times when dealing with 1TB or bigger drives takes eons and besides, what if what gives up the ghost is the RAID controler?
"Critical" material like family pics and videos is stored in 3 locations, 2 different had drives plus CD-R or DVD+/-R as an "extra -extra precaution".

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

I didn't know you do Sammy reviews. You a computer/video consultant? Yeah, sent me or better still post your writeups here for all to learn as well. Spanish no problem. It will be good for Z as well. Just use the translator.

I wrote displays and players reviews for a Spanish A/V magazine (both paper & web).
Sammy displays I reviewed for them:

PS50C6900
PS50B850
UE46B7020W
PS50A756 1M
LE40A656

I can send you the articles in a Word file in Spanish if you PM your email address.

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

Actually, video processing don't stop at just upscaling SD videos processing but also at how HD 1080p videos are processed too. That's why different TV will look different for different video processing chips in them. The better chip will have a better video algorithm processing. Yeah, better researched and implemented dsps for those with better video images. Just like dacs are using more advance dsps in them nowadays instead of just processing the digital signal and claiming it as perfect technically and there should not be any subjective difference. Am I correct for the video part?

With most current middle or high range digital displays having a native resolution of 1920x1080 pixels (>32"), 1080p material from a BD disc should not need any additional "enhancing" processing. It is already good enough. Most processing advertised by manufcaturers is marketing BS that in fact does more dammage than good.
SD is different because it needs to be deinterlaced and scaled to the displays resolution. Good processing translates to an easy to see better picture without jaggies, combing, moire, etc.
Lots of displays and players include noise reduction functions (mosquito, random, block,etc.). I have only found one that was worth using and then at the minimum value. They all mess up the picture.
Believe me, if you want the best from your system disable ALL enhancing functions. This is one of the less is more cases.

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

I wouldn't say again too fast for that. Wait till you go pass 50" or 60". Even much more for projectors.

Very true, the higher the screen diagonal to distance ratio the more you need HD. Fortunately in my TV room I can't go higher than 42-46" (distance from coach to TV goes from 2.5-3.5m) so I can happily stick to upscaled SD, have a beautiful pic and save lots of money.

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

That's precisely the problem that I observed from those THX certified calibrators. No 2 sets of brightness and backlight adjustments for the same attainment WILL bring the same attainments for OTHER parameters. This is precisely what's happening in audio. Same attainments or measurements for some parameters but sound different as there are more to things than just those parameters. Yeah, it affect other parameters. MInd us, we are talking of supposedly PERFECT digital signals and very low measured errors (beyond the resolution of what is humanely possible?) here now. Yet, the difference.

Not quite sure I follow what you mean. The end result needs to be the same or very close following either path . It is about the way adjustment controls work in each display and also manufacturing tolerances.
Values cannot be copied from one TV to another even if they are the same model, QC at the factories allows for tolerances that invalidate doing it.
There is an order of what is more important to get right in case a compromise situation arises but is not subjective, it follows how the human eye works and what it is more sensitive to.

Sept 21, 2011 22:34:32 GMT XTRProf said:

There you see, there are still differences despite the stds.

What I meant was my preference was accuracy over eye candy. If you go to the movies reasonably often you'll know film is not as sharp as most TVs with their default settings, if you want to get the same as in the theater in 99% of the ocasions you'll have to slide the sharpness control to its minimum or barley above position. This can be done with the help of a sharpness pattern like the ones found in the adjustment disc you and Alex have mentioned. The Radiance I have also acts as pattern generator.



The Oppo disc you are refering to is the Spears & Munsil one, I heard very good things about it but I don't have it, got plenty others though (HQV, VRS, AVSHD, etc.).

One of the best sources for calibration and video display information is without a doubt www.avsforum.com.

[XTRProf]

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

I wrote displays and players reviews for a Spanish A/V magazine (both paper & web).
Sammy displays I reviewed for them:

PS50C6900
PS50B850
UE46B7020W
PS50A756 1M
LE40A656

I can send you the articles in a Word file in Spanish if you PM your email address.

That's an interesting profession. You have pm.

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

Lots of displays and players include noise reduction functions (mosquito, random, block,etc.). I have only found one that was worth using and then at the minimum value. They all mess up the picture.
Believe me, if you want the best from your system disable ALL enhancing functions. This is one of the less is more cases.

Yup, I have my Sammy all noise reductions switched off as recommended by those THX calibrators. May I know which noise reduction which you consider worthwhile to be on at minimum. I just on the motion blur reduction as recommended by the calibrators on the net for my model as one option for either std or movie.

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

Very true, the higher the screen diagonal to distance ratio the more you need HD. Fortunately in my TV room I can't go higher than 42-46" (distance from coach to TV goes from 2.5-3.5m) so I can happily stick to upscaled SD, have a beautiful pic and save lots of money.

But the recommended size is distance divided by 1.5, right? So 3m / 1.5 = 2m = 2 * 100 / 2.54 = 78" TV size.

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

Not quite sure I follow what you mean. The end result needs to be the same or very close following either path . It is about the way adjustment controls work in each display and also manufacturing tolerances.
Values cannot be copied from one TV to another even if they are the same model, QC at the factories allows for tolerances that invalidate doing it.
There is an order of what is more important to get right in case a compromise situation arises but is not subjective, it follows how the human eye works and what it is more sensitive to.

I dun thing so. Those calibrators had shown the 2 options of getting similar "brightness" will affect OTHER parameters differently.

I know there are manufacturing tolerances and that's why I'm just using the recommended setting for my TV model from the net as a temp measure until I can get hold of those tools you have.

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

What I meant was my preference was accuracy over eye candy. If you go to the movies reasonably often you'll know film is not as sharp as most TVs with their default settings, if you want to get the same as in the theater in 99% of the ocasions you'll have to slide the sharpness control to its minimum or barley above position. This can be done with the help of a sharpness pattern like the ones found in the adjustment disc you and Alex have mentioned. The Radiance I have also acts as pattern generator.

I know what you mean precisely. But as you had said, there is a test pattern for sharpness std and preferences should not come in to affect that.

Current digital cinema is at 4k over a very large screen. I think the cinema screen will be at least WS diagonal 40 to 50 ft (480" to 600"). Wait till they come out with Quad HD (which is already available by some mnaufacturers) and all will be revealed. I still agree with you that thru our eyes we don't see things as sharp as those oversaturated sharpness setting though.

Sept 22, 2011 13:40:53 GMT @javier said:

One of the best sources for calibration and video display information is without a doubt www.avsforum.com.

Agreed and that's where I got my temp settings from.

[Deleted]

Not really a profession, just a little "extra income" 2nd job. Money is very, very small in that business in Spain we do it for the fun and to have access to the latest tech. My main job is in IT.