Let's Talk About Antenna

[XTRProf]

I just got myself a 3D TV recently to replace my kaput Sony CRT and the bloody antenna is just not good enough for digital transmission. Pixelation and breakup. Analogue transmission still ok, albeit quite some ghosting. So what are the main criteria that we should look out for for good digital cum analogue transmission from a far place say from Batam (Indonesia. Sorry don't know where. Most probably transmission antenna on a hill as usual for most broadcaster transmission) to Singapore or from Johor Gunung Pulai (Malaysia. Yup on a hill as Gunung = Hill or Mountain) to Singapore? Map, with some ideas of distances, here.

Yup, as good an antenna I could possibly reerect as this will be for good hifi radio (analogue + digital) and TV [hirez digital (how you know maybe 3D braodcast in the future) + SD analogue]. Yup, from far away distance broadcast (so far only SD analogue that I know) as well like from Malaysia and Indonesia as they are free. Double and rotating antenna will also be in if needed. Cable TV signal only have Singapore channel signals and not other countries except for 1 channel from Malaysia. Cable doesn't carry any radio station signals (analogue or digital).

[Deleted]

Chong
What are the Channel numbers (allocations ) that you wish to receive ? Australia for example uses VHF band 3 (channels 6-12) and UHF bands 4 & 5 (channels 28-69
At a previous difficult address (below a hill. i.e. no line of sight.)
I got excellent results using a compact Fracarro log periodic antenna which is designed specifically for DTV,replacing the existing external antenna and combined with a higher noise level MHA than the one I presently use..
At the present address , reception is even poorer, and the old main antenna is at the other end of the house from my room.
I get quite good results with rabbit's ears except for break up when somebody turns on the fluoro in the nearby toilet, BUT I had to fit a very low noise MHA a couple of metres from the TV . There is another more expensive model with very low noise that only goes from around 170MHZ up, and would be even better here.
Alex
www.ebay.com.au/itm/KINGRAY-MDA20L-Masthead-Amplifier-PSK06F-Power-Supply-F-/270694246007?pt=AU_Television_Accessories&hash=item3f06a26677

[XTRProf]

Here is a rough idea of those in range or those quite far away (Malaysia and Batam). Batam stations, I had just found out, are mostly at Sekupang and Batu Ampar on the Batam map.



www.asiawaves.net/singapore-tv.htm



Btw, I'm around Nature Reserve in the Singapore map surrounded by monkeys literally.

[XTRProf]

Actually, when the signal is still weak for those in Malaysia and Batam, will running 2 in a cascade or tandem manner improves things? When running 2, what do I need to make it as one signal to the TV? I know 2 will overload the TV input for those local strong signals but then I could switch one of those antennae out for local strong signals, right?

[Deleted]

Chong
Now you are talking about phased arrays. That's a pretty deep subject. You could try Googling it though.
What kind of signal are you presently receiving ?
To give some idea of the weak signal here before the MHA, I couldn't even lock in weak analogue channels, yet with the MHA I get a good digital signal except for the fluoro striking.
Much will also depend on the sensitivity of the tuner in the TV.
Another example was with PC TV where with rabbit's ears extended I couldn't watch any program whether analogue or DTV. Changing to a new Winfast DTV 2000 H + internal card instead of the old DTV card gave me watchable DTV on all local channels with the rabbit's ears fully extended.
If you are getting any kind of a signal, why not try a low noise (<2dB) MHA in line ?
Alex

[XTRProf]

Aug 23, 2011 5:24:46 GMT @sandyk said:

Chong
Now you are talking about phased arrays. That's a pretty deep subject. You could try Googling it though.
What kind of signal are you presently receiving ?
To give some idea of the weak signal here before the MHA, I couldn't even lock in weak analogue channels, yet with the MHA I get a good digital signal except for the fluoro striking.
Much will also depend on the sensitivity of the tuner in the TV.
Another example was with PC TV where with rabbit's ears extended I couldn't watch any program whether analogue or DTV. Changing to a new Winfast DTV 2000 H + internal card instead of the old DTV card gave me watchable DTV on all local channels with the rabbit's ears fully extended.
If you are getting any kind of a signal, why not try a low noise (<2dB) MHA in line ?
Alex

Yup, I do have analogue TV signals but weak ones for those in Malaysia and Batam. That's one of the main one on upgrade wish list. Local analog signals are ok but with ghosting. But no problem with local analogue TV signals as I can still get them with no ghosting from the cable network. However, I'm not too sure about whether there is any local radio analogue and digital signal on the cable network. HD Digital signal, like that at Singapore HD5, is recieved but breaking up and with much pixelation. Another main one on the wish list.

Yeah, I will try a MHA of course when I can find one locally. This I'm very confident will solve the HD5 problem. Only that I'm going one stage further to capture good analog TV and radio signals from Malaysia and Batam for free as well.

Btw, you say the better and more expensive MHA is the 170Mhz upwards, wouldn't that completely make radio receptions null as analog radio signals is from about 80+ MHz to 100+ MHz?

[XTRProf]

Yeah, hor, come to think of of it, how come the broadcaster don't put HD5 into the cable network? I think I will write to Mediacorp on this.

[XTRProf]

Query already send!

[Deleted]

Btw, you say the better and more expensive MHA is the 170Mhz upwards, wouldn't that completely make radio receptions null as analog radio signals is from about 80 MHz to 100 MHz?

Chong
We don't want to amplify FM radio signals, as strong nearby FM transmitters can overload amplifiers, as well as causing severe patterning of VHF analogue TV. Restricting the amplifiers bandwidth also aids in impulse type noise rejection. The type of MHA that I used at the previous address incorporated an FM filter, which was helpful in reducing severe analogue patterning due to a nearby FM Stereo radio transmitter.The Fracarro antenna also assisted in this regard as it was designed for DTV only operation, and due to this was much more compact as well as less likely to suffer damage due to large birds.It also had better side rejection and improved immunity to reflections from aircraft.
Alex

[XTRProf]

Aug 23, 2011 7:42:15 GMT @sandyk said:

We don't want to amplify FM radio signals, as strong nearby FM transmitters can overload amplifiers, as well as causing severe patterning of VHF analogue TV. Restricting the amplifiers bandwidth also aids in impulse type noise rejection. The type of MHA that I used at the previous address incorporated an FM filter, which was helpful in reducing severe analogue patterning due to a nearby FM Stereo radio transmitter.The Fracarro antenna also assisted in this regard as it was designed for DTV only operation, and due to this was much more compact as well as less likely to suffer damage due to large birds.It also had better side rejection and improved immunity to reflections from aircraft.

So technically speaking, better to get a seperate antenna for FM and digital radio?

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2011 8:01:25 GMT XTRProf said:

Aug 23, 2011 7:42:15 GMT @sandyk said:

We don't want to amplify FM radio signals, as strong nearby FM transmitters can overload amplifiers, as well as causing severe patterning of VHF analogue TV. Restricting the amplifiers bandwidth also aids in impulse type noise rejection. The type of MHA that I used at the previous address incorporated an FM filter, which was helpful in reducing severe analogue patterning due to a nearby FM Stereo radio transmitter.The Fracarro antenna also assisted in this regard as it was designed for DTV only operation, and due to this was much more compact as well as less likely to suffer damage due to large birds.It also had better side rejection and improved immunity to reflections from aircraft.

So technically speaking, better to get a seperate antenna for FM and digital radio?

Yes.

[XTRProf]

Had been doing some fiddling at home to see what my old man had put up for antennae. Found that in the attic, he had put up 2 very old antennae which cannot make it for the local HDTV channnel (pixelation) as well as for far away analogue channels (signal just too weak and lots of ghosting) from Malaysia and Indonesia. He had been relying on the cable network for local TV channels and so the antennae are in neglect.

Well, for a start, I found this in his stash and used it to see whether radio signals will come through. Arrggghhhhhh, HDTV no more signal now. Can forget about it!







So have to push forward and after shopping around, found this rather impressive antenna with a build in low noise/high gain booster amp and directional rotor motor and bought it with higher hope for much better transmission receiving, especially for HDTV, from Malaysia and Indonesia. Anyway, it's the best of the bunch from SoundTech and the only antenna brand I found in Singapore.










Found that the old neglected 75 ohms coaxial is of the old poor not double shielded quality type, so much for my old man doing , and bought some Belden RG6 and not RG59 (I think) coaxial cable for the job as well. The cable had been bought for some time.

So now waiting for the time to climb on top of the world feeling for the antenna and new coaxiual cable replacement pending time availability. I hope to do it this weekend. Well, spidey, here I come without the suit. So God bless me.

Btw, I'm not religious and is a free thinker. But that doesn't mean, I don't believe in an almighty around.

[XTRProf]

Oh, yeah, if very successful, I will buy another one for the the digital and analogue radio as advised by Alex. Maybe even double stack to receive very weak signals. Yes, I'm going into the area of a highend home antenna. Not intelligence gathering though as dunno where Col Gadaffi is.

I have also another alternative and very well reviewed Philips antenna to consider as well. However, this is only for the US of A market and not available in Singapore. Maybe the channels receivable is different from Singapore and the reason why Philips Singapore doesn't offer this for sale in the Singapore market. Had message Philips Singapore up and they say antenna is no longer in the Singapore catalogue. The channels for the Singapore area are from C1 to 92 and S1 to 66, I think. Digital HDTV included. I need to check with my TV again to confirm.

The Philips model is SDV2940/27 here:






Any expert comments to this antenna thingy are most welcomed.

[Deleted]

Any expert comments to this antenna thingy are most welcomed.

Chong
A high gain amplifier built in with a very compact antenna, is no substitute for a proper digital antenna like the Fracarro, which has elements the correct length , and a low noise MHA close to the antenna itself.IMO, antennas like in the photo are only good for high signal strength areas where an external anttenna is not an option.
Alex

[Deleted]

bought some Belden RG6 and not RG59 (I think) coaxial cable for the job as well.

Quad shield RG6 is the preferred coax for DTV in Australia.

[XTRProf]

Btw, which model of Fracarro you have in your house? Your Fracarro + MHA = rough gain? Also, roughly how much in AUD?

Fracarro antenna catalogue, under "Aerials.pdf", here:


www.fracarro.co.uk/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=100&&Itemid=250



From a short walk thru the catalogue specs, their max gain is only less than 20db without the MHA. Also, the channels covered are mostly from E21 to E69 with some covering until E5. Analogue and digital radio bandwidth not even mentioned. So radio ok?

One thing I like about the Fracarro is that they are mostly directional and not omni and should go quite far in their outreach for stations. Max distant coverage? I need about 30 to 35 miles as that's roughly how far the Malaysian (Gunung Pulai) and Indonesian (Sekupang and Batu Ampar) stations mostly are from my central Singapore location.

[XTRProf]

Aug 31, 2011 3:37:45 GMT @sandyk said:

Chong
A high gain amplifier built in with a very compact antenna, is no substitute for a proper digital antenna like the Fracarro, which has elements the correct length , and a low noise MHA close to the antenna itself.IMO, antennas like in the photo are only good for high signal strength areas where an external anttenna is not an option.
Alex

Thanks. Can then forget about them. Anyway, saw one similar Soundtech one and it's gain is at only 20db with inbuild MHA. So what you say jive to less competence for far away stations.

Seriously, I dunno why there are such good reviews on this Philips model from the US of A users. Some people even claiming they can get stations as far away as 50 to 60 miles, obviously inline, clearly

[XTRProf]

Heh, heh, heh, the mody cap already worn now before even opening up the antenna packaging box. Which better hi frequency op amp to use. 8066?

[Deleted]

Chong
This was at a previous address where the antenna was below a hill and no line of sight.
From memory it was the LP345HV. I can't remember the model no. of the Kingray MHA, but it was mounted on the mast directly below the antenna.
Alex.
www.crystalclearantenna.com.au/Fracarro.html
,

[XTRProf]

Aug 31, 2011 5:18:31 GMT @sandyk said:

Chong
This was at a previous address where the antenna was below a hill and no line of sight.
From memory it was the LP345HV. I can't remember the model no. of the Kingray MHA, but it was mounted on the mast directly below the antenna.
Alex.
www.crystalclearantenna.com.au/Fracarro.html
,

Ah, that's probably the older series. But it's covering all the channels from C5 to E69. The current catalogue with VHF and UHF is just only the SIGMA Combo hd Code 213202 at max gain of VHF 9 db and UHF 16 db. If you wanted to know more, it's at pg 18.

So with a 9 db antenna max gain and say a Kingray MHA max gain of 19db as tabulated in your Kingray MHA link here:

www.ebay.com.au/itm/KINGRAY-MDA20....=item3f06a26677

you are close to what my new antenna set is getting. So I should be A-Ok technically speaking if my terrestial is as what you are getting. Btw, what's your max distance station you are getting? 30 to 35 miles in line?

Also, I read from the Fracarro catalogue, FM and DAB need only about 2.1 db max gain, wouldn't our around 30(+) db, gain antenna + MHA, overload our poor tuner?

[Deleted]

Chong
If you want FM as well, then use a separate antenna, or an indoor antenna.The MHAs that I use notch out the FM band. I found that the Fracarro with it's superior directivity outperformed the much larger in situ higher gain antenna, as far as aircraft reflections and from some local high rise buildings, including a nearby large Westfield shopping centre. We were less than 20 miles from the TV stations, but as I said , below a hill and even analogue TV reception was very poor due to this.
In my present location I could not get any watchable analogue or DTV at my end of the house with rabbit's ears, but with the low noise MHA in line about 2 metres from the TV, all local DTV is good quality except for when fluoros turning on, when using rabbits ears.
In other words, the MHA needs to have a noise level of <2dB, and lower noise than the TV tuner itself when used indoors.
Alex.

[XTRProf]

Aug 31, 2011 5:58:01 GMT @sandyk said:

If you want FM as well, then use a separate antenna, or an indoor antenna.The MHAs that I use notch out the FM band.

That's precisely what I'm getting at as I wanted to buy another same Soundtech antenna when everything goes well. It seems I cannot have another same one for radio or it will overload the radio tuners. Even if I power down the inbuild MHA in the Soundtech, I will still be getting a gain of about 10db in the worst case scenario, should be more than enough to capture those 30 to 35 miles radio stations from Malaysia and Indonesia. Hence, I will have to look at antenna of < 10db without MHA for radio signals. Let me experiment with the Soundtech first.

Aug 31, 2011 5:58:01 GMT @sandyk said:

I found that the Fracarro with it's superior directivity outperformed the much larger in situ higher gain antenna, as far as aircraft reflections and from some local high rise buildings, including a nearby large Westfield shopping centre.

Btw, wouldn't a well design reflector element at the back of the antenna eliminate or reduce the reflections?

Aug 31, 2011 5:58:01 GMT @sandyk said:

We were less than 20 miles from the TV stations, but as I said , below a hill and even analogue TV reception was very poor due to this.
In my present location I could not get any watchable analogue or DTV at my end of the house with rabbit's ears, but with the low noise MHA in line about 2 metres from the TV, all local DTV is good quality except for when fluoros turning on, when using rabbits ears.
In other words, the MHA needs to have a noise level of <2dB, and lower noise than the TV tuner itself when used indoors.

Good to know that you are getting good receptions now. Btw, you live in a house and not a condo, right? How come you are using rabbit ear antenna? Living in a house, we must have an outdoor or at least an attic antenna to have the best signal as we have the luxury of space. Rabbit ear type is a waste of our time to setup a good home antenna system.

[Deleted]

Btw, you live in a house and not a condo, right? How come you are using rabbit ear antenna? Living in a house, we must have an outdoor or at least an attic antenna to have the best signal as we have the luxury of space. Rabbit ear type is a waste of our time to setup a good home antenna system.

Chong
The house is a rented 4BR house that is quite long. The existing old analogue antenna is right up the other end of the house where my son's family room is. They mainly watch Cable TV.My TV room is at the opposite end of the house, and would require a long run of RG6 cable from a DTV antenna also fitted on the same mast.
It is not an option to fit another mast and antenna at my end.
Alex

[XTRProf]

Aug 31, 2011 7:58:26 GMT @sandyk said:

My TV room is at the opposite end of the house, and would require a long run of RG6 cable from a DTV antenna also fitted on the same mast.
It is not an option to fit another mast and antenna at my end.

Really, for your case, I wonder there is any analogue/digital wireless "router" kind of thing to transmit from the antennae nearby your son's room to your side of the house. Your side just put a receiver "dongle" to receive the TV signal. I remember there use to be an analogue wireless video kind of thing to transmit video signals from one place to another side of the place.

Maybe there is a more advance version of that nowadays with digital transmission. If we never ask around, we wouldn't know, right? The analog version was not very expensive.

Bingo problem solved if have.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2011 8:24:23 GMT XTRProf said:

Aug 31, 2011 7:58:26 GMT @sandyk said:

My TV room is at the opposite end of the house, and would require a long run of RG6 cable from a DTV antenna also fitted on the same mast.
It is not an option to fit another mast and antenna at my end.

Really, for your case, I wonder there is any analogue/digital wireless "router" kind of thing to transmit from the antennae nearby your son's room to your side of the house. Your side just put a receiver "dongle" to receive the TV signal. I remember there use to be an analogue wireless video kind of thing to transmit video signals from one place to another side of the place.

Maybe there is a more advance version of that nowadays with digital transmission. If we never ask around, we wouldn't know, right? The analog version was not very expensive.

Bingo problem solved if have.

Chong
The old antenna isn't really suitable for DTV and has seen better days. My son is using analogue wireless links to serve the childrens' bed room. My DTV reception problem has already been solved, and I can live with a momentary reception glitch when someone turns on the bathroom fluoro at night. BTW, the analogue TV senders are of mediocre quality, with not even S-VHS. Only composite video is available.
Alex