Mini APE

[PinkFloyd]

This little bugger is VERY revealing and really shows up poor recordings (MP3).... I was listening to "Bowie" on it last night Ian (the MP3 you sent me) and where he doesn't sound too bad direct from the computer the compression is very evident on the Mini APE.

MP3 isn't a problem to me as I don't record ANYTHING in MP3, there is no excuse for listening to crap recordings in this day and age, there is a limit to how many albums you can listen to in one day so I don't understand why people have to have their machines crammed full of MP3 files..... I would rather shove 100 Lossless / WAV albums on my ipod or 10 onto an SD card than fill them with thousands of poor quality files.

Your SD card / USB stick is quite a cheap device so it's not as if you have to suffer poor quality recordings cause the "media" is an extortionate price.... you didn't have the option of "compression" with the CD walkman or the Dansette portable record player so why this craze for cramming as much MP3 crap as possible onto a device?

People say things like "I only listen to MP3 when I'm on the train".... erm.... why? why listen to crap anywhere when you can listen to high quality stuff?

Anyways, this is not a problem for me as "MP3" is something I will never use as I have no reason or desire to listen to shitty recordings.

[Deleted]

he doesn't sound too bad direct from the computer the compression is very evident on the Mini APE.

Interesting observation as the question now is..
Does the computer 'proces' the sound to become 'acceptable' or is there something in the decoding algorythm different or is it indeed a quality thing ?
On the ipod it also seems to sound acceptable.
Is it bad PC/ipod quality if it sounds better on those players or does the mini ape show compression when it is not detectable/heard on other players ?
How does the same file sound on a PC with a good (external) DAC ?

just (interesting ?) questions not meant to criticise, I have neither the discussed file nor ipod nor the same PC nor the mini ape nor the same cans nor the same amp nor the same hearing to listen to what you are hearing.

When both PC and mini ape perform about equally well on higher Q recordings what does it say about which player with which decoding algorythm.

I fully agree on the listening to crappy recordings/low bitrates thing.
It's unacceptable and I won't even load crap on my DAP.
But.. is it an excuse for any player to not play the entire track ?

[Deleted]

Frans
The new April edition of Silicon Chip magazine has a portable headphone amplifier project.
The lead in to the article says "Fed up with the sound from your iPod or MP3 player ?
Build this amplifier and be amazed at the difference."
They provide several graphs for the iRiver iHP-140 MP3 player, and the iPod Nano 8GB.
The iHP-140 has .08 % distortion at 20HZ into 16 ohms, and goes as high as .23% at 5KHZ. The iPod Nano does .03 and .08 % under the same conditions.
It shouldn't be too hard for the Mini Ape to do MUCH better ?
Alex.

[Deleted]

The Ape makes a low quality file sound edgy and you become aware of poor sound at the top end. It also seems to have a better dynamic range - ie; it seems to go louder and softer given the same file.

The tonal quality from the Ape shows more top end and this would make high sounds more obvious especially if there are problems with the files.

Mike mentioned my files and the sound of them when he first tried the Ape which I didn't get because I generally listen on an Ipod which doesn't sound so extended as the Ape. (or dynamic)

Perhaps the fact that the dynamics are more compressed on an Ipod and the top end isn't so extended means that the problems of low bit rate files are really not so obvious? The power supply on Ipods isn't really ideal for proper dynamics.

My computer sounds much the same as the Ipod in all honesty, although I seem to remember that it become 'sharper' and more focussed via USB into the Aune amp.

Orchestral music ripped as WAVS are very open on the Ape. You can hear faders being manipulated purely because you can hear the 'air' coming and going on the recording.

I became aware on one recording of some wooshing noises which, when I turned the volume right up, I realised that it was the engineers playing with noisy pots. On another recording, I became aware of a buzz in the recording which when played via Ipod barely exists.

These recordings were made for broadcast so I have a feeling that the engineers didn't pay particular attention to details like this. (As they normally would, very much so, on a CD recording)

Part of it is the tonal balance imo. The Ape goes up further so any problems up there become painfully apparent.

If there is any more dynamic range to be had from a better power supply, the Ape will make the headphones leap off your head!!

Perhaps a warm headphone like the Senn 650 would be a good match with it?

Beyer DT770 does well with it - especially with that fat bass and they don't reveal so much of the nasties in files, but the Grados show it easily.

Low quality MP3 files just are not good. They are edgy (as Mike had found originally). The Ape won't play all of the track though if you have small MP3 files - it cuts the end off and goes to the next track. No problems at all with WAVS.

The other thing about the sound is that it seems very transparent and lucid. You really can hear right into the room, easily. Get the volume right and it can be downright scary if someone in an orchestra sniffs or shuffles because your natural reaction is to turn around and look for someone. It's a very open listen and needs good files to feed it without a doubt.

Imagine if I played a low bit rate MP3 on a CD through my Naim player and amp!! I would think that would be very nasty sounding. That's what I think the Ape is doing.

[JohnnyBlue]

It’s fine to dismiss MP3s if you’re just starting out on ripping to computer audio format, but I’ve been doing this for years now, and, in the process, have accumulated over 50Gb of material (about 300 – 400 albums) in MP3.

Some of it, ripped at 192kbps (before I knew any better and learnt how to alter the settings in EAC) is pretty much unlistenable on the Mini APE, which is fine by me, but more recent rips at 320kbps are pretty acceptable and save considerable space compared with FLACs. It’s not a question of storage at home, but portability, so that if I’m out and about (or away on holiday) it’s great that I can take my Sansa Clip+ and a few (Micro-)SDHC cards and have a fantastic choice of music with me.

More recently, I have been ripping to FLAC files, which also play on the Sansa Clip+, but, of course, this format takes up much more space (300 – 400 albums is over 100GB) and the quality improvement using the Mini APE over MP3 is clearly audible. (This obviously is a good thing, but I can only fit about 25 CDs onto an 8GB (Micro-)SD card, compared with about 60 CDs at 320kbps MP3.)

In any case, I was rather hoping I could play my MP3s on the Mini APE as well, as the idea of re-ripping them all to FLAC is not very appealing. Also, as I pointed out earlier, the Mini APE’s cutting tracks off early problem is NOT limited to MP3s, but small FLAC files as well.

[Deleted]

It’s fine to dismiss MP3s if you’re just starting out on ripping to computer audio format, but I’ve been doing this for years now, and, in the process, have accumulated over 50Gb of material (about 300 – 400 albums) in MP3.

Same for me. Portable audio for me is heavily used since I tend to work away from home and I have 160Gb of music plus other stuff on drives.

I think that it is something to do with the size of the file rather than the quality of the ripped music. It just happens that I spotted it because I played a low bit MP3 (192) which would be a small file.

But.. is it an excuse for any player to not play the entire track ?

It's probably easily overcome with a software fix in the end, but I'm not keen on listening to these files on the Ape in any case since they don't sound good. (Too edgy) However, if it plays the files, you are right Frans, it ought to play them to the end of the track!!

Actually, Mike spotted the edginess originally and wrote to me about the poor quality of my rips, which I couldn't understand, but now I can hear what he was talking about. Low bitrate files do sound a bit thin on the Ape.

[Deleted]

It is not a question of 'better' but 'different' ways to decode, filter (digital and analog) and linearity of the DAQ (time and amplitude) that define SQ of digital playback.

I have the Sansa Fuze (the same engine as the clip) and it is way better then ipod and 99% of all other DAP players.
The output stage of the Sanza's is unmatched by other DAP's (that's why I bought it so an extra amp is not needed)
Ipod has the name and the lovely unequalled human interface and the 'I want it' factor.
SQ is decent and slightly better from a good quality dock also.
I have no complaints of SQ not even with the best HP's amps and LS for that matter.
These are intended for portable use (as Johnnyblue correctly mentiones) but can also be used for home audio.

Thing with digital reproduction (especially of low bit rates) is one DOES NOT KNOW what happens in the digital processing domain if high-cutoff digital filtering is used or not and HOW it is applied (number of nodes, times oversampling, percentage of feedback, clock speeds e.t.c.).
These are the things that define the top end of the audio signal for the biggest part.
As it is unknown how any player handles this, one can only guess or measure its behaviour to find out.

Of course it is the final sound that counts and should define ones choice in this matter.
Problem is you can't audition a lot of this stuff without buying it.

Of course SC is going to make a statement you have to build their stuff to get decent SQ.
Using a simple 'standard application' opamp amplifier (often referred to as C'Moy eventhough he did not invent it) does the same for reasons I already have mentioned numorous times (proper loading of DAP outputs) which decreases distortion and increases bottom end and smooths top end by lowering distortion.

[Deleted]

It’s fine to dismiss MP3s if you’re just starting out on ripping to computer audio format, but I’ve been doing this for years now, and, in the process, have accumulated over 50Gb of material (about 300 – 400 albums) in MP3.

Jeez! Sounds like my old and deteriorating cassette collection ;D

I must be a MP3 snob or summint, the daughter exclusively listens to low res files on her iPod and my son to better res on his PSP.
I don't how know how they do it, it sounds pants to me. I always rated the atrac system on MD as far superior. That's another format I've loads of stuff lurking on. Max. of 1GB per disc , that would never do these days.

[Deleted]

here is a fun experiment for Mike or Ian:

Is there a difference in playing back the 'offending file' directly from the medium IN the mini APE and when the file is played back on the PC with the mini APE as a DAC ?
If there is, it is highly likely there is some signal processing done in the PC.
If it sounds the same (as far as audio memory permits) the differences between ipod/PC and mini APE are due to differences in quality of the DAC/digital filtering/upsampling.

[Deleted]

Well, the main thing is that it really does sound good with high quality files which is more like what it was designed to do I suppose.

High quality files don't improve as much on the computer as they do on the mini Ape.

However, now I've said that, I'm sure someone has a computer setup that sounds really good.

I don't use the computer as a main source for music. Ipods mobile (from dock connection to amps) and it looks as though some serious ripping is needed for the Ape.

HD600 helps those rough files out to some extent but you can still hear that they are low quality files.

The K701 on low quality files ......

(Pass the pills!!!)

Ian

[JohnnyBlue]

There's obviously something about Wednesdays that my Mini APE doesn't like: it failed to boot up again yesterday and I've had to mess around for another 20 minutes just now to get it working again, using the reset file Candy sent me the last time this happened. Just to be clear, I hadn't touched the device from its previous use, having put it into standby using the remote.

I assume from the fact that nobody else has asked for a copy of the reset file that everbody else's is working fine...

[Deleted]

John,

With mine, so far so good.

After initially leaving it on 24/7 for 10 days I have, after the talk of possible glitches, since been switching off thus......

Stop the music at the Ape (via remote)

Switch to standby via remote

Switch off at rear of Ape

Switch off linear PSU

Lastly my SCHA gets switched off.

I have no idea if there is anything helpful there. Maybe you're getting mains nasties while in standby, if that can effect it?

Mine also had a little stutter off a basic SD card and also since then the same off a basic USB pen. Using better grade memory there have been no such irregularities.

[JohnnyBlue]

Thanks cj, I hadn't thought about leaving it on standby as a problem, maybe that's it.

Also switching off: sometimes I've turned off the Mini APE inelegantly by just pressing the standby button on the remote, rather than stopping the music first. I shall mend my ways!

I've also had anomalies with SDHC cards and USB sticks, sometimes just removing and re-inserting them has been enough to sort it out, sometimes it takes a re-start.

[Deleted]

Just in case anyone wants to put a USB3 portable drive onto the mini Ape, it works fine.

So far, no stutters at all with WAV files. Got one occasionally if I stopped and then started again while it played at the same time as read. This drive is fine.

So, it's going to be 500 gigs of WAVS!! Here we go..... see you next month.

[PinkFloyd]

Mar 31, 2011 15:02:06 GMT JohnnyBlue said:

There's obviously something about Wednesdays that my Mini APE doesn't like: it failed to boot up again yesterday and I've had to mess around for another 20 minutes just now to get it working again, using the reset file Candy sent me the last time this happened. Just to be clear, I hadn't touched the device from its previous use, having put it into standby using the remote.

I assume from the fact that nobody else has asked for a copy of the reset file that everbody else's is working fine...

John,

Mine was an absolute DOG to begin with, as LEO succinctly put it "this thing has gone apeshit on me"... it would start, it would stop, it would freeze, it would jump.... pretty mental it was!

I persevered with it and kept rebooting it..... eventually (after about 100 hours) it settled down and now operates flawlessly.... not ideal but, yes, mine was a bit buggy to start with.

Another thing that I noticed early on with mine was if I physically moved it when it was playing it would cut out.... I traced this to a loose connection on one of the outputs.... try this with yours, pick it up and shake it when it is playing.... if it freezes then you may have a cold joint somewhere.

This may sound daft but the Mini APE is a bit like windows.... it takes a while for it to learn what it's supposed to be doing and seems to respond well to the "reboot".... it's like giving it a slap in the face, it soon learns NOT to freeze or it'll get another slapping!

HiFiDIY are an excellent company with an excellent after sales service, I am sure they would be more than happy to replace your Mini APE.... it should be performing flawlessly..... If I were you I would send it back and get a replacement shipped over. It will only cost £8 to ship it back via international signed for (Royal Mail) and will only take about 5 days to reach China.... I am sure HiFiDIY will refund your postage costs if the unit is found to be faulty.

Seriously John, this is not a faceless company who just take your money.... HiFiDIY are extremely professional and committed to first class customer service and satisfaction, you will have no problems at all getting a replacement under warranty and I would urge you to go down this route for your own peace of mind.

My Mini APE is a prototype and I am quite happy to iron out the glitches but if I were in your shoes I would send it back to them.... it will also help THEM in the long run as they are committed to providing top quality, reliable gear.

All the best,

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Remember also guys....... this is "up to the minute" technology and, as such, pioneering in it's nature..... ALL feedback, positive and negative will assist in making this medium leapfrog

I think we forget this sometimes here.... we are at the forefront and this type of technology WILL make it's way into "Currys / Comet" etc. one day but, for the time being, it's up to us to help in on it's way

[clausdk]

WOW !!!

As you can guess my APE has landed..

But I can not skip to the next song ??

I am using an USB stick with wav files..

hooked up to my V8 and JVC dx 1000 and I am gobsmacked

just to repeat myself WOW !!!

[candyhifidiy]

Hello John, i think your problem will be sloved as the latest software, i will send to you at middle of month(April) , the latest one, so this will never happen again, by the way , about anymore who use the USB Disk, we suggest you use a USB HUB

Attachments:

[Deleted]

Candy
Will the necessity for using a USB hub be removed with future updates? Otherwise it detracts from the elegant simplicity and high performance of the Mini Ape.
SandyK

[JohnnyBlue]

Mar 31, 2011 21:16:55 GMT PinkFloyd said:

John,

Mine was an absolute DOG to begin with, as LEO succinctly put it "this thing has gone apeshit on me"... it would start, it would stop, it would freeze, it would jump.... pretty mental it was!

I persevered with it and kept rebooting it..... eventually (after about 100 hours) it settled down and now operates flawlessly.... not ideal but, yes, mine was a bit buggy to start with.

Another thing that I noticed early on with mine was if I physically moved it when it was playing it would cut out.... I traced this to a loose connection on one of the outputs.... try this with yours, pick it up and shake it when it is playing.... if it freezes then you may have a cold joint somewhere.

This may sound daft but the Mini APE is a bit like windows.... it takes a while for it to learn what it's supposed to be doing and seems to respond well to the "reboot".... it's like giving it a slap in the face, it soon learns NOT to freeze or it'll get another slapping!

HiFiDIY are an excellent company with an excellent after sales service, I am sure they would be more than happy to replace your Mini APE.... it should be performing flawlessly..... If I were you I would send it back and get a replacement shipped over. It will only cost £8 to ship it back via international signed for (Royal Mail) and will only take about 5 days to reach China.... I am sure HiFiDIY will refund your postage costs if the unit is found to be faulty.

Seriously John, this is not a faceless company who just take your money.... HiFiDIY are extremely professional and committed to first class customer service and satisfaction, you will have no problems at all getting a replacement under warranty and I would urge you to go down this route for your own peace of mind.

My Mini APE is a prototype and I am quite happy to iron out the glitches but if I were in your shoes I would send it back to them.... it will also help THEM in the long run as they are committed to providing top quality, reliable gear.

All the best,

Mike.

Apr 1, 2011 3:31:47 GMT candyhifidiy said:

Hello John, i think your problem will be sloved as the latest software, i will send to you next month , the latest one, so this will never happen again, by the way , about anymore who use the USB Disk, we suggest you use a USB HUB

Thanks for the re-assuring words about HiFiDiy as a company and the face-slapping remedy (!) for the Mini APE. I'll wait for the next update from Candy and see how this works out for my slightly troublesome one and I'm sure all these glitches will be resolved eventually.

[candyhifidiy]

OK, john, thanks , will get back to you soon, the latest software will at 10th of April, so i will get back to you , please do not worry , everything can slove , we assure that, if that can not slove at that time, you can resend th mini APE , we will repair or change that for you for a new one, thanks

[Deleted]

But I can not skip to the next song ??

This may be because of the unconventional signs on the remote Claus. It's not what we normally use!!

The same goes for the interconnect on the back. The red and white outputs are the other way round to the way we normally do it. ie - red is LEFT and white is RIGHT!!

Mike pointed out, if you read it, then you'll connect it the right way - I just assumed red was right which is not the case.

The skip to next track is the arrow pointing right. Not the conventional sign that you see on CD players. Mind you, I haven't tried it yet, but I remember reading it in the book. Try the right pointing triangle. I know it's in the book 'cos I read it last night.

Ian

[PinkFloyd]

Apr 1, 2011 3:31:47 GMT candyhifidiy said:

Hello John, i think your problem will be sloved as the latest software, i will send to you at middle of month(April) , the latest one, so this will never happen again, by the way , about anymore who use the USB Disk, we suggest you use a USB HUB

That's not really ideal Candy.... the beauty of the Mini APE is the simplicity of it, I'm not sure I'd want to stick one of those gadgets onto it...... funnily enough, my APE plays USB sticks no problems at all.

[Deleted]

Mine also works well from a portable usb3 drive.

[Deleted]

But I can not skip to the next song ??

Claus,

If you are within an album or the lowest end of a cascade menu the skip keys won't work. They are more like menu controls.
For tracks use the track number followed by play.

Once you've got the idea it's quite logical.