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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 16:04:12 GMT
I tried the 2134Ps today but went back to LM4562s. Compared to the LMs the OPAs sounded rolled off at both extremes and even if they imaged quite well I wasn't thrilled by them. Indeed they are "polite" but I think it might be because they have lower gain and less energy in the highs. Probably they will be good if you have bass heavy phones like the HD650 but with my K601 or K501 they are too lean.
I've ordered from Mike the 1,800uFs for the PSU board and all "extras" (Alps pot, Jalco, Wimas, etc.) to complete full mod. My X-Cans are now sound wonderfuly, lets see if they get even better.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 12, 2011 23:22:48 GMT
I tried the 2134Ps today but went back to LM4562s. Compared to the LMs the OPAs sounded rolled off at both extremes and even if they imaged quite well I wasn't thrilled by them. Indeed they are "polite" but I think it might be because they have lower gain and less energy in the highs. Probably they will be good if you have bass heavy phones like the HD650 but with my K601 or K501 they are too lean. I've ordered from Mike the 1,800uFs for the PSU board and all "extras" (Alps pot, Jalco, Wimas, etc.) to complete full mod. My X-Cans are now sound wonderfuly, lets see if they get even better. I don't know where you got the idea about me and the 2134 Javier? My preferred chip (if I'm sending it out as part of a kit) is the OPA2132P as it is guaranteed to be stable and will not cause the builder any problems.... if he / she then wishes to roll in an LM6172 (or some other cranky chip) then it's up to them. Did you optimise the 2134 for the circuit as per pecs on the TI datasheet? If so, it's a nice sounding chip in the V1. My person favourite is the OPA2111KP although it may prove a bit "too" tubey sounding for some.... a nice all round balanced sound can be had from the OPA2227. AD8620 is also nice, a bit more organic sounding than the BB chips... AD 744 on Bdog biased into class A is also nice but you need to bottom mount a few components to get them to fit. I have over 1,000 opamps (of all sorts) and really must get back into trying them out.... most of the amps we have been discussing here lately don't use opamps (Panda etc.).... I used to eat, sleep and shit opamps and was ALWAYS rolling them in and out making comparisons / taking notes..... got some pretty rare ones too, DY2000 being one.... must get them out and list them when I have time. I think you will notice a massive improvement with the 1800uF caps and the 1uF WIMA film caps..... I don't know "why" the increase from 470nF to 1uF has made a subtle but noticeable improvement, in particular to the bass, I am going to include these in all my kits from here on in. Remember, Javier, opamp rolling is like anything else.... don't just roll it in, have a listen and think "don't like it".... leave it in for a WEEK.... listen to it for a whole week and THEN go back to the LM4562.... it's the only way to do it, that way you will soon know what you have gained or what you are missing  Same with caps and things.... don't fit a cap, listen for 5 minutes and then replace it with another one...... leave it in for at least a week.... all of these components need time to stabilize / form / bed in. One word about fitting the ALPS pot..... those pads are VERY delicate. Get a hot iron and a desolder pump, place the solder on the joint and as soon as it becomes liquid suck it up with the pump.... don't spend too much time on the joints with the iron. I will trim the pot shaft for you and send a suitable knob (one that looks like a mini x-can ) Any photos of your work so far man? Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 8:07:21 GMT
I'll try to ne more patient  but the differences were quite big. I needed to crank up the volume when OPA was in to get the same bass and I don't like to listen loud, I guess ear fatigue very quickly at high volume. Probably are early mods but you can see the 2134P: www.rock-grotto.co.uk/Neilxcan2.htmrockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=q&action=display&thread=1961&page=1BTW, no extra work/tuning on the opamps mentioned. I think the 2134P is also mentioned in some other threads but, mind you, searching old threads is kind of a P in the A. When you put more than 600 days it tends time out, even if you mark only the MF sub forum. Anyways, isn't the 2132PA supposed to be just the industrial version of the 2134P? My knowledge of electronics is as good as my knowledge of sturgeon farming in the Caspian sea. I did read the pdf in this page www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/index.html , a very interesting piece of work, and a few threads in DIYaudio and that is all. For all intended purpose the opamp's guides could well be writen in greek. I just replace one chip with another and that's it. Further, I've started to use the iron doing this mod and don't trust myself enough to get the hot tip close those tiny legs trying to solder a resistor, cap, etc. I could buy already made kits using DIP or SOIC on Browndog but wouldn't dare trying to solder them myself. I have some broken PC MBs at the office and I will practice with them first, then I'll come back and ask.  . Still I'd love to learn about what to do and how to do it. I've ordered free samples of the 2111KP, 2107AP and 2132AP but TI takes ages to process the request and still not sure if I'll ever get them. Is it possible to order samples from Analog or NS and actually get them? if so, how? I'm eager to try the 1,800s and WIMAs  . I'll have my firend do the pot if it is so delicate. Another friend of mine has the X-Cans V1 and X-LP, I'm trying to convince him to mod them as well but there very little information available about modding the phono stage. The cap/diode part would be similar to the X-Cans right?. It is also opamp based (NE5534) any ideas for a good drop in replacement? he doesn't belive that modding is really woth the time or the money and he is almost set on a Heed he now has on lease but I think that for a fraction of its price he can improove the X-LP to a decent level or am I wrong? I have an old Rotel 971 as the bedroom source, it uses the OPA2604 in the I/V stage, will the 4562/49720 be a good drop in replacement? any recommendation? Finally, what about the regulators and output transistors Mike? probably you don't mention them is because you don't belive there is much to be gained by using better spec'ed ones but would like your opinion. When I put the new parts I'll make som pics but I warn you, I only have a crappy 60€ Sony and little photographer skills. Cheers |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 13, 2011 11:20:22 GMT
Bloody hell.... that must have been around 1997.... I really must update that site when I have time  |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 13, 2011 11:23:55 GMT
The "P" has better DC specs than the "PA" (lower offset) so the "P" is the more precise of the two.... having said that, there isn't usually a lot in it, I have seen the PA measuring up the same as the P sometimes.... with the "P" though you are guaranteed closer tolerances.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 13, 2011 11:43:33 GMT
Yes, it's possible to get samples from Analogue devices, they are not as "generous" as TI and usually limit the sample to "one" on a few items whereas TI lets you sample five of each. NS are pathetic for samples.... ie: you have to "pay" for them so not really a free sample is it? I have plenty of free samples, let me know what you'd like to try and I'll see if I have them... TI are quite happy to send me free samples as they know I run this forum and the samples get "exposure".... basically, it's not a good idea to abuse the sample programme.... if you are a guy who works as a baker and claiming you are a company called "global electronics enterprise" getting loads of samples delivered to Flat 450 in a high rise council tower block then this is "abuse" of the programme..... Basically it spoils it for the genuine people. You used to be able to get samples of chips like the OPA627 but that was stopped after numerous assholes started selling them on ebay. TI are usually quite fast (if the chip is in stock)... 2 or 3 days. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 13, 2011 11:46:11 GMT
You "could" match the transistors but, sonically, not a lot to be gained IMO and if you believe MF are doing this then you must have straw growing out of your ears |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 14:35:38 GMT
You "could" match the transistors but, sonically, not a lot to be gained IMO and if you believe MF are doing this then you must have straw growing out of your ears ;D I didn't belive they'd go trough such a time consuming process for £169. I thought they'd just throw some better spec'ed ones. But if it is of lttle or no benefit then they are already forgotten, same with regulators. Bloody hell.... that must have been around 1997.... I really must update that site when I have time mmmmmm, great idea!  if you want some ideas.... I have plenty of free samples, let me know what you'd like to try and I'll see if I have them... I wouln't mind trying anything that is a direct replacement. I already have the LM4562, OPA2134PA and the original NE5532 (survived desoldering). I have ordered the above mentioned OPAs so if you have any not on the list for me to try I'll be extremelly happy to test (I'll try to them in keep for a week and take notes). TI has removed many if not all of the precission serries out of the samples program, even the modest 2134PA. Funny you can geta free 2107 @ 7.35$ but not a the 2134PA @ 1.25$. Whats wrong with the LT6172? it gets good comments in other places. Have you tried the OPA211-HT, OPA128 or LT1364? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 8:05:49 GMT
I've received a mail from TI with a Fedex tracking # for my opamps so maybe I'll have them for the weekend. I ordered all DIP recomended by Mike, 2107, 2132P & 2111KP (the specs of this last one aren't promising compared to the other 2, notably slew rate a gain BW). I'll start with the 2132 and, as Mike suggested, I'll leave it in for a week.
I'm very happy with my X-Cans as they are and I'm sure it'll improve with the pending mods but there are two things that are bothering me. First one is the headphone socket, when cold I have to move the jack up/down & sideways until I get the sound right, it could mean that there is something wrong with the socket and is not making good contact with the jack but strangely when the XCs are fully warmed up the problem goes away. Any ideas as to why is the cause?
The second issue is warm up time. It takes almost 20-30 min untill I get the best sound, I'm sure but I think before modding 5-10 min was enough.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 15, 2011 9:01:22 GMT
I've received a mail from TI with a Fedex tracking # for my opamps so maybe I'll have them for the weekend. I ordered all DIP recomended by Mike, 2107, 2132P & 2111KP (the specs of this last one aren't promising compared to the other 2, notably slew rate a gain BW). I'll start with the 2132 and, as Mike suggested, I'll leave it in for a week. The OPA2111KP may not seem that interesting on "paper" but it's quite a nice chip on the "ears" With the head socket.... could be a loose solder joint on the HP socket... when it gets warm it expands and, thus, makes a better connection.... I dunno, you have a replacement on it's way (as I type) so try that and see if it resolves this problem. As discussed earlier, you are using relatively "new" components and it takes a bit of time for the capacitors to "form"... this is all part of (what some call) the "burn in" process. Generally speaking, these amps (V1 / V2 / V3 / V8) don't start to sound their best until about an HOUR after the amp has been switched on.... leave it switched on for two or three days (24/7) and then have a listen |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 17:51:37 GMT
Today I've received the TI samples but I'll wait until the rest of the material arrives to change the opamp (Mike, did you send them last monday?).
Some electronics illiterate Qs...
Looking at the pics of the cap that is on its side I've noticed that the resistor (R2) is not the original one, the new is brown and the old was blue. Can I use the original (I have no spares)? resistors have no polaity and can be reveresed,right? what about the tranny (TR1) because if I bottom mount it leg1 becomes leg3, no problem either?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 16, 2011 20:35:22 GMT
Today I've received the TI samples but I'll wait until the rest of the material arrives to change the opamp (Mike, did you send them last monday?). Some electronics illiterate Qs... Looking at the pics of the cap that is on its side I've noticed that the resistor (R2) is not the original one, the new is brown and the old was blue. Can I use the original (I have no spares)? resistors have no polaity and can be reveresed,right? what about the tranny (TR1) because if I bottom mount it leg1 becomes leg3, no problem either? You can fit resistors any way round. NOT so with the transistor... the legs must go to the same pads if you are mounting under the board.... an easy way to do this is to mark one of the outer legs and mark the top of the PCB (marker pen).... that way, the leg will go to the correct hole when you mount it under the board |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 22:33:57 GMT
Thanks Mike, I hadn't thought about just bending the middle to the opposite side. Silly me.
Been practising with my new iron, opened a couple of broken PC PSUs and desoldered everything from them using both the vacuum pump and braid ;D tomorrow I'll practise putting things back.
Quite a hobby this is mate!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2011 23:30:07 GMT
I swapped the LM4562s for the OPA2111KPs today. I'll leave them for in a week before changing them for the 2132Ps. So far I like 'em quite a bit. They sound a little softer in the highs (slightly rolled off?) and have a better more defined bass (which my 601s really need) making long sessions confortable even at higher levels.
Thanks for the tip Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 19, 2011 23:32:29 GMT
I swapped the LM4562s for the OPA2111KPs today. I'll leave them for in a week before changing them for the 2132Ps. So far I like quite a bit. They sound a little softer in the highs (slightly rolled off?) and have a better more defined bass (which my 601 really need) making long sessions confortable even at higher levels. Thanks for the tip Mike. OPA2111KP is a very overlooked chip, give it a few days to cook and you will notice it starting to blossom in the mids / highs.... I much prefer the 2111 to the OPA627. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 16:34:44 GMT
Today I recived the parts I needed to complete the modding of my X-Cs. I had already replaced part of the original caps with Pannys FRs (1,000uF &100uF) and FCs (10uF), removed the NE5532ANs opamps and put sockets and replaced the original diodes with UF4004s. So this is the kit Mike sent me:  10 x 1,800uF 35V Panasonic FR caps 5 x 1uF 100V Wimas 5 x .47uF 250V Evox Rifa (not installed ->for trying later on) 2 x 10uF 16V Bipolar Nichicon Muse ES (for C103 & C203) 1 x Apls pot 1 x Knob 1 x Jalco socket 1 x 2.1mm Plug 1 x 2.1mm Socket Some pics (taken indoors with vey poor lighting) of how it was untill today: Boards ready for surgery: Original PSU bypass cap + UF4004 diodes + 1,000uF FRs Wider view of PS board (all Panasonic FR, 10 x 1,000uF 35V+ 2 x 100uF 50V Original pot + HP socket + bypass caps closer look (OPA2111KPs on socket are visible as well as Panny 10uF 50V FCs): Middle section of lower board with 2nd socket and original bypass caps: New kit in place:Upper board (1,000uFs dwarfed by the fekk off monsters behind and beside them)(Note: There are still 2 x1,000uF, I will replace them tomorrow).  another angle: Front view (Alps pot, Jalco socket, first line caps are Panny FC 10uF 25V, Wimas in place) Colourful side view (green Nichicons on sight) Middle section of lower board: Same but from above (OPA2111KP in DIP socket) Soviets at their battle stations: Markings on the valves: (Both Muses ES input caps can be seen on next one)   Edit: I just got home and fired it up. First impression without proper burn-in is biiiiiig & deeeeep bass. Wow!! :Dif |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 15:08:08 GMT
Today I finished modding the X-Cans with the installation of the 2 pending FR big caps. I bottom mounted the resistor and regulator as per Mike's instructions and put the cap lying on its side. Too bad I don't have a camera... the thing is packed to the brim! They are burning in as I write but they already sound absolutely fabulous!  Next step is changing to the OPA2107s this weekend. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 23, 2011 15:49:20 GMT
Looking good Javier! Give the caps a few days to "form" before expecting the best from the amp. The 2107 are very nice sounding, look at them as a dual version of the OPA-627, they have the same chocolaty signature but are slightly more spritely in the mids.... a lovely BB chip. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 19:26:03 GMT
I need urgent help!!! (not anymore)
Don't know what has happened but when I got home I plugged the X-Cans and there is no bass, they sound hollow and thin. If I unplug them from the mains everything goes to back to normal for a few secs but the moment I plug them on again the problem resurfaces, what the h*ll is going on???!!!!
They have been sounding beautifuly at the office the whole day and nothing happened to them on the trip home by car.
Edit:
I've opened them and had a look, every thing looks fine. the only thing I've noticed is that my tubes don't glow like the pics in the previous page of this thread. Any ideas?
Edit2:
Problem found
After a more thorough examination I found that the solder of outer parts of the RCA jacks (the "-"?) to the board (return?)are cracked and don't make good contact, both for the line in and the line out. But worst, also one of the pins of the 2 leads cable that carries power to the lower board was sunken in and its solder joint also cracked, I pushed in back up and the tubes glow again bringing the bass back. I Damm!! I left all the tools at the office so I won't be able to fix anything until tomorrow.
Shite, I was really looking forward to enjoy a long nice session of music today. I'm really pi**ed off!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 23, 2011 22:29:52 GMT
What the hell are you doing with that amp? Yes, it will sound like shite if you have one (or more) bad joint.... resolder these tomorrow at work and you will be fine. If the pad has seperated from the track then get yourself a sharp craft knife... scrape away the green coating on the track to expose the copper underneath... you can solder onto this It's not a problem, go and sleep and awake refreshed tomorrow.... easy to remedy, don't worry. |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 24, 2011 22:22:27 GMT
Javier.... I've popped a couple of Red LED's in a cardboard envelope for you, I'll post tomorrow.... one is already wired, the other isn't.
The best way to remove the existing LED is to smash the faceplate onto a wooden chopping board, this will force the LED out (don't worry it will not damage the face plate) when you fit the new led put one SMALL drop of superglue onto the rear "lip" of the LED and push it into the hole, this will secure it in place.
The red wire goes to "A" (anode).
Hope you managed to sort out the loose joints?
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 22:42:29 GMT
Mike, I P.M.'ed you earlier today... let's see if I'm lucky and you read it before its too late!!
Yes I have fixed the 3 offending joints and did some suspect looking others as a precaution measure. They are singing beautifuly now with the 2111 in place. I've been listening some Bowie, Dire Straits and Neil Young, what a pleasure mate. I'm enjoying it so much it might be a sin.
I was so pissed with the LED I pulled out the black wire, removed the black sleeve, soldered and covered with electrical tape. It doesn't look nice but it works. I'll repalce it as soon as yours get here.
Cheers,
Javier
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 13:08:23 GMT
I've put the LM4562 back and done some further tweaking to optimize it. Following Frans' recommendation (thanks a bunch!!) I've bypassed C110, C111, C210 & C211 with ceramic 100nF and also put a 10nF across pins 4->8.  Truly beautiful sound and imaging. I'm an extremelly happy bunny. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2011 23:34:47 GMT
Mike, Though I rec'd the Panny caps a couple of weeks ago I only got around to fitting them in my V2 a couple of days ago. I thought the difference might be subtle, but boy, was I wrong  More scale?, more power?, bigger? Not sure how to describe the difference in SQ it, but I definitely prefer it. Thanks |
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but the differences were quite big. I needed to crank up the volume when OPA was in to get the same bass and I don't like to listen loud, I guess ear fatigue very quickly at high volume.
. Still I'd love to learn about what to do and how to do it.
. I'll have my firend do the pot if it is so delicate.
if you want some ideas....
