Wish to identify stock V8P tubes

[jonp]

Hi,

I asked this question over at head-fi as well, though I expect this is also a good place to ask.

My V8P was built in December 2009 and I wish to purchase some tubes, but - perhaps surprisingly, exactly the same make and type that it came with.

The problem is that I can't identify them. It looks like in these later builds, MF used a seemingly anonymous tube. They have ECC88 written in white upper case writing towards the top of the glass and on the bottom of the glass on one of them I can make out:

GABR
07C

Anyone have any idea of what these tubes are?

Thanks

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 30, 2010 11:09:42 GMT jonp said:

Hi,

I asked this question over at head-fi as well, though I expect this is also a good place to ask.

My V8P was built in December 2009 and I wish to purchase some tubes, but - perhaps surprisingly, exactly the same make and type that it came with.

The problem is that I can't identify them. It looks like in these later builds, MF used a seemingly anonymous tube. They have ECC88 written in white upper case writing towards the top of the glass and on the bottom of the glass on one of them I can make out:

GABR
07C

Anyone have any idea of what these tubes are?

Thanks

Hi Jon,

I tried ringing them for you but I assume they are on holiday as there is no answer..... you could also try [e-mail]

From looking at them my guess is they are Chinese made and stamped "ECC88".... they are not a patch on the Jan Philips (USA made) 6922 (E88CC) that MF fitted in all their other head amps.... these are cheapies and not very good sounding cheapies either!

I have sent Jan Philips 6922 to many V8 owners and they ALL report an "amazing" improvement over the stock valves.... similarly the Russian 6H23N are a major improvement, tonally, over the stock ECC88.

All the best,

Mike.

The valves are ECC88 (6DJ8)

[jonp]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for trying to ring them. At least I know the problem with the telephone wasn't at my end.

The problem I have with changing the tubes is that indeed they will change the sound, wheres the tubes it came with - even if they are $5 Chinese ones - have the perfect sound for me. I just don't want the sound to change at all.

Unfortunately the left channel tube is now too noisy (and microphonic). I changed them yesterday to some quite expensive Tungsram tubes (the Tungsrams worked OK in my previous V3), but in this case they changed the character of the sound in a way I did not like (the amp certainly was more dynamic, better soundstage, better detail, better frequency extension but the top end became rougher, too incisive and less transparent and the sound was much more "in my face").

I couldn't put up with the "new" sound for long and so went back to the originals (and am for the moment putting up with the noise).

So I have to either get a substitute that won't change the original character at all or get the originals it came with.

I do have some JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 on order but I sort of ordered them as something that might get me by until I can find out exactly what it came with originally and then try to find a source to buy a lot of them (doubtless they are cheap and probably don't last all that long).

Then again, the Sylvania might not adversely effect the sound and no doubt it will be more robust.

I am also thinking I should try the old Tesla ECC88 (the ones from the 70s with the yellow labels made for the Czech Military I think) as well, since I understand they have a reputation for being warm and inoffensive - which is pretty much how would describe my stock V8P.

In any case I will email MF (thanks for the address). It can't hurt and the worst that could happen is no reply.

[jonp]

Incidentally, that email address bounces. MF no longer quote any email address on their website. I suspect they deliberately don't want to get bogged down in an email culture with retail customers and prefer the phone and snail mail methods of communication.

I guess I will try to ring them in a few weeks if the Sylvanias fail to excite me.

I remember trying those Russian tubes you mentioned in my old V3. I remember the sound became a bit beefier and there was more bass, but I preferred the smoothness and delicacy of the original JAN Philips 6922.

Have you or anyone had any experience comparing JAN Philips 6922, JAN Sylvania 6DJ8, JAN Sylvania 6922 and JAN Sylvania 7308?

Actually, in my V3 ownership days I remember going a bit nuts with tube rolling, trying all sorts of exotica including Siemens. In the end, I pretty much decided that whatever stock tubes these things come with provide the best sound, but that's just my opinion of course.

[elysion]

Did you mean these, Jon?





I've bought a used X10-D a couple of months ago. The tubes above are the original tubes of that X10-D. I replaced them soon with JAN 6922 (I didn't like the ECC88's much).

I can't say much about their condition, beside that they are used. They did still work, but most likely they have been used for a longer time.

I have no clue who manufactured them.

I would give them away if you pay the postage. The problem is: I would need to send them as a parcel to ensure safe transport. I'm in Switzerland and depending where you live this can be quite costly. I wouldn't pay this amount of money for those tubes (just my oppinion).

[PinkFloyd]

Jon....

Had a look round and I have one brand new one (removed from a new V8P) I will send it over if you PM me your details.

I think I've got a few used (but working) ones in the workshop, will also look them out.

Mike.

[jonp]

Jul 30, 2010 16:03:34 GMT elysion said:

Did you mean these, Jon?

Hi Elysion,

Thanks so much for your help here!

Yes, that almost certainly looks like them - I am 99% sure - I can even see some of the same writing on the bottom of the glass. I thought the X-10D had the tubes soldered to the board? I guess they must have changed the design to be socketed instead.

I think I may be interested in these. What was the build date of the X10D? That might give me some idea of the condition of the tubes you removed.

I realise these tubes are cheap ones but I have a fear that I am going to go through the JAN and Tesla tubes and still like the originals. Or maybe not of course...

Anyway, what I am proposing is that I will PM Mike about his basically new ones and I'll pay him to send them onto me.

As for yours, I'll see how I go with the Sylvanias I already ordered (and maybe try an NOS Tesla) and if I don't like them then maybe we can work something out.

One option (if I prefer the originals to the Sylvania) is that I could send you the Sylvanias and you send me the originals and we both just pay the shipping. Or I will just pay the shipping for the originals and you don't get anything.

Anyway, if you don't mind holding onto them for the time being one way or the other, that would be great as it will give me time to sort out whether I can find anything aftermarket that is better than those originals to my ears and the music I like to listen to.

Thanks again!

Jonathan

[jonp]

Jul 30, 2010 18:55:34 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Jon....

Had a look round and I have one brand new one (removed from a new V8P) I will send it over if you PM me your details.

I think I've got a few used (but working) ones in the workshop, will also look them out.

Mike.

Hi Mike,

Much appreciated. The ones in the photo are definitely the ones in my XCan. Have PMed you.

[elysion]

Jul 31, 2010 0:06:59 GMT jonp said:

I think I may be interested in these. What was the build date of the X10D? That might give me some idea of the condition of the tubes you removed.

I realise these tubes are cheap ones but I have a fear that I am going to go through the JAN and Tesla tubes and still like the originals. Or maybe not of course...

Anyway, what I am proposing is that I will PM Mike about his basically new ones and I'll pay him to send them onto me.

As for yours, I'll see how I go with the Sylvanias I already ordered (and maybe try an NOS Tesla) and if I don't like them then maybe we can work something out.

One option (if I prefer the originals to the Sylvania) is that I could send you the Sylvanias and you send me the originals and we both just pay the shipping. Or I will just pay the shipping for the originals and you don't get anything.

I couldn't read the date code exactly. I guess it's "00" for 2000 (there are three cyphers, but I simply couldn't read the third letter). I'm rather sure they are old, but I can't say how often the X10-D was used. The X10-D was in very good condition otherwise.

I'm not interested in a tube swap, since I don't need tubes at the moment. I have no interest in spending money for something that I don't need.

Maybe there's another solution: If I'm sending a parcel to another UK Rock-Grotto member next time, I can included the tubes in the parcel and ask him to send them to you afterwards. This would be a lot cheaper, but don't expect me to ship parcels soon.

Third solution: I ask the guys in the post office for the cheapest way for shipping. Maybe I can send them in a padded envelope. Of course, that means: No risk, no fun...

[jonp]

hehe...padded envelope. Glass crunchies for breakfast...

I've had more than enough people tell me that any decent NOS tube should be better than the stock tubes that I am almost starting not to trust my own ears.

I am curious to know how long it might take an old NOS tube to settle down into it's long term sound. When I got the V8P, it really sounded quite rough, glassy and two-dimensional and I was wondering why it sounded so very different to the demo unit (I believe in burn-in, just that I have not seen it to anything like the extent that I have with this XCan V8P).

I think it took about 80 hours before it started to sound really good and I don't know how much that was the tubes settling in or how much it was the rest of the amp.

Anyway, given that selling second hand tubes is hardly worth the trouble, I'll hold onto those Tungsrams I bought and just keep them in there for a few weeks and see how they go without deliberately trying to listen to the amp every 5 minutes to see if things change. And in a few weeks, I should have the Sylvanias to try. Certainly if the sound changes to the extent it did when I first got the amp, then I am not hearing the NOS Tungsrams yet the way they ought to sound.

I have to concede the original tubes were much noisier than the Tungsrams at best - the hiss was quite noticable, whereas with the Tungsrams I have a nice quiet noise floor. Plus the Tungsrams image much better and the whole presentation seems to tighten up. The original tubes could even cause the stereo image to drift around a bit - really noticable with headphones.

But with that tightening up, the improved midrange and highs make the amp seem even more lacking in the lower end (my one criticism of this amp is the impression that it has no bottom end), even though what I suspect is really happening is that the new tubes are simply handling the midrange and treble differently (possibly more realistically) and that the V8P inherently has a very high degree of control over the bass.

To make matters more complicated, I don't have my choice of cables yet. I know what I am going to be getting (Wireworld Oasis as I have used them before and they are excellent).

And then there is the power supply. I intend down the track to get the new Little Pinkie and that will move the goal posts yet again.

So I guess I am better off just collecting different matched pairs for the time being, burning them all in and then waiting till I get the final cables and power supply.

Just as an aside, does the latest Little Pinkie improve the low end at all compared to the stock wall wart?

And a real newbie question? Are those tube sockets robust enough to facilitate all the tube swapping I am doing? I worry I might end up wearting out the sockets!! (though I am using very small amounts of Caig DeOxit which does lubricate the pins).

[PinkFloyd]

Jul 31, 2010 3:06:41 GMT jonp said:

I've had more than enough people tell me that any decent NOS tube should be better than the stock tubes that I am almost starting not to trust my own ears.

The JAN / Philips 6922 is known to be a MAJOR improvement over the stock valves..... 6922 / E88CC is a military grade valve (the military equivalent of a 6DJ8 / ECC88) they should also last a LOT longer than the stock ECC88. I have sold quite a few Philips 6922 to V8 owners and ALL of them have reported an "incredible" improvement.

I am curious to know how long it might take an old NOS tube to settle down into it's long term sound. When I got the V8P, it really sounded quite rough, glassy and two-dimensional and I was wondering why it sounded so very different to the demo unit (I believe in burn-in, just that I have not seen it to anything like the extent that I have with this XCan V8P).

The sonic characteristics of a valve DO change over time. Generally, they will start to blossom (fill out) after about 100 hours. Also remember that during the lifespan of the valve things will change and they will not always remain the same spec as they were from new. I change my valves every year and a new pair "does" always sound better to me than a pair that's been in service for hundreds of hours.... some people will disagree with this, however, and will advise you to keep your valve equipment turned on 24/7/365.... I do not agree with this.

I think it took about 80 hours before it started to sound really good and I don't know how much that was the tubes settling in or how much it was the rest of the amp.

A combination of both. Capacitors also need time to "form", most amps (from new) sound pretty thin but start to fill out after 100 - 200 hours usage.

But with that tightening up, the improved midrange and highs make the amp seem even more lacking in the lower end (my one criticism of this amp is the impression that it has no bottom end), even though what I suspect is really happening is that the new tubes are simply handling the midrange and treble differently (possibly more realistically) and that the V8P inherently has a very high degree of control over the bass.

Have a look at my mods rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=q&action=display&thread=5354 these REALLY opened the bass up! What headphones are you using?

To make matters more complicated, I don't have my choice of cables yet. I know what I am going to be getting (Wireworld Oasis as I have used them before and they are excellent).

Concentrate more on the valves, these have a MUCH bigger influence on tonal signature than any cable.... also look at ditching the 500mA wallwart, that really is a bit of a joke

So I guess I am better off just collecting different matched pairs for the time being, burning them all in and then waiting till I get the final cables and power supply.

Not so much a case of "matched pairs".... just ensure the valves you are buying have never been used.... there are a lot of people out there selling "matched pairs" which are in fact used valves.... I only buy my stock from reliable sources and buy in large batches (all same date code, from the same batch).... years ago, when I used to buy "pairs" of valves I was shocked at what actually turned up!.... clearly "used" and certainly NOT "NOS"!

Just as an aside, does the latest Little Pinkie improve the low end at all compared to the stock wall wart?

The Pinkie improves everything, across the board. The stock wallwart is struggling and is far from "quality".... I hate blowing my own trumpet but can assure you that the Little Pinkie does the job very well.

And a real newbie question? Are those tube sockets robust enough to facilitate all the tube swapping I am doing? I worry I might end up wearting out the sockets!! (though I am using very small amounts of Caig DeOxit which does lubricate the pins).

Yes, they are adequate. If they get a bit "sloppy" all you have to do is lever the sockets inward with a pin (or watchmakers screwdriver) this will tighten the connection up again.

I wouldn't use ANY of these connection enhancers.... pure snake oil in a tin IMO.... you are effectively "adding" a film between two metals which is not a good idea.... metal to metal contact is what's required. A much cheaper, and more effective, method is to unplug your interconnects once a month and then plug them in again.... this will ensure the contact remains good. I would, certainly not, apply this snake oil to valve pins and sockets.... you are just asking for trouble.

If you want to get anal then you can polish the valve pins with some 1200 grade wet or dry paper..... this will improve the contact but once you start doing this you'll have to repeat it quite frequently. Basically, it's best to leave things be.... once you start interfering with connections (which have been designed by EXPERTS) you are on the road to madness! Remember, these valves were used in nuclear warheads / spaceships..... Critical applications.... I've never heard of a spaceship requiring "Caig deoxit" to get it through the hot zone

The ceramic valve bases are a lot "grippier" than the cheap plastic ones that MF fit and, if you can solder, I would recommend you fit a pair. If the pads on the MF boards were up to it I would solder the pins directly to the board.... unfortunately, they are not too robust so a socket is the best bet.

You mentioned earlier about the valves being soldered directly to the board in the X-10D..... it's actually the X-10 V3..... the X-10D uses 6DJ8 valves which are socketed in the same cheapo bases the V8 uses..... the X-10 V3 employs JAN / Philips 6112 sub miniature valves and these are soldered direct to the board..... MF call them "Nu Vista" valves in an attempt to add an air of mystery / Audio bullcrap to them.... they are bog standard 6112 valves.

I'll send you a few "old" valves over Jon (plus the one brand new stock ECC88).... don't worry about postage etc. If there's a pair you like the sound of then I will send you a brand new pair.

Hope this helps.

Enjoy the music.

Mike.

[jonp]

Hi Mike,

Thanks so much for all your help here - you've obviously spent a lot of time in relation to this thread and I also greatly appreciated you sending me some odds and ends to try.

The Little Pinkie is definitely on the list - it's just a case at the moment of my having to prioritise music related expenditure - particularly given that since Classic Records got bought out, the existing titles may never be reprinted - so I have just placed the biggest order for pre-recorded classical music in my life and it will take me some time to financially recoever from that massive purchase.

But don't worry - the cable does come last. That said, I have to disagree with you about cables - I have seen quite serious differences between different cables, with them most certainly being the cause of making or breaking the sound. I would actually rate the influence of cables to be next down on the ladder from the tubes themselves.

I currently have the Tungsram back in and I am at a point where I am not quite sure what to think of them. I can, however, see why so many people like them and are prepared to spend the money onthem. The soundstage is unbelievable, they are totally grain free, balanced tonally, very dynamic with great extension and zero sibilance. But the downside to all of that is the amplifier has a much more in-my-face presentation than it had with the stock tubes.

I have always maintained that the best way to know if your headphone setup is doing the right thing is to go away from it for several days and don't listen to any music, then go and listen to it (after giving it a warmup of course). Then, if it does not sound "right" within 5 seconds of the music starting, then it actually isn't right for you - and it is infact your brain then working overtime to make it sound "right" (which I believe is what cause listening fatigue).

I worry these tungsram tubes fit into that sort of category - even after leaving them for ajust a day and then having a listen, it's like I'm hearing the sound from the conductor's podium but am infact seated 30 feet away. But if I go back to the stock tubes now, I lose that incredible sound staging, dynamics, texturing, etc.

So whatever the case, everything needs more time and I also think it important to hold onto all these tubes because once I have all the bits some tubes may do better than others, even though that wasn't the case previously.

The headphone incidentally is the Sennheiser PXC300 - I love them and have had them for a couple of years now. Would not swap them for anything at all, though their one weakness is they are bass light, so in that sense probably not the best match for the V8P. But that's just tough luck, since I am absolutely not changing them under any circumstances whatsoever - they are just too good for me in all other aspects. It took me about 6 months of auditioning virtually every headphone on the planet within a reasonable price range before settling on them.

[jonp]

Just to update anyone who is interested, I have now given up on the Tungsrams. They are just too in-your-face and bright. I feel a bit like I am having the sound bashed into me at the minimum sort of volume settings needed to hear all the detail in a recording. So this effect happens listening to orchestral music even at relatively low volume levels of around 58dBA with maximum peaks of around 78 dBA.

One thing that did improve as I used them though was the bass - the bass with them is certainly what I would call accurate, without being over the top.

I also got the JAN Sylvania 6DJ8 and burned them in overnight. They were unbelievably bright - I couldn't listen to them at all for more than 30 seconds...and they sounded exactly the same when I first put them in as they did the next morning having been on for 18 hours.

Obviously there are more tubes yet to try, but I am starting to get this horrible feeling this amp was a purchasing mistake. But that is so hard to comprehend, because last year I spend two hours auditioning one and the very last terms I would have used to describe it were forward and bright - if anything it was completely the opposite (and yes, I used the exact same headphones and source I am using now). I will certainly try any tubes I have coming and think I ought to give some NOS Teslas a try as they appear to have a reputation for being smooth, warm and inoffensive, but after that there aren't really any practical options other than to go back to my Cmoy!

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Jon,

The V8 IS a pretty flat, uninvolving, listen (according to Anthony Michaelson, that's how a headphone amp "should" sound :

Of all the valves I have tried the 6H23N and JAN / Philips are by far the best in this amp, they give it a bit of BALLS.... as "stock" it's a rather flimsy sounding amp IMO.

I have been very busy this week but will sort you out a couple of pairs of valves next week.... let me know what you think of them.

[jonp]

Hi Mike,

Well i think for the time being you can hold off sending any tubes. I believe I have being maligning both the amp itself and those Tungsram tubes.

I left the whole thing alone for a few more days constantly burning in and I have to say that now the amp sound spretty darned good - even with the Tungsrams that I had been thinking were too forward and bright - they aren't, though I still think there is a "perfect" tube out there for me - but I just don't want to spend all my time experimenting - nor do I now feel any urge to experiment much more - I would rather just enjoy the music.

Apart from most likely not giving the unit sufficient burn-in time, I realised too that since I do not leave it turned on 24/7,I was not giving it sufficent warm up time either. To make matters worse, the headphone output on my computer is very mushy, rolled off and overly warm. So my ears get used to an understated, laid back, undynamic presentation and when they go back to the V8, my ears need to adapt again.

I actually decided to set up a stop watch and timed (on average) how long it takes from a cold start for the V8 to achieve it's "sound". And it actually takes 15 minutes. Anything less than that and the symptoms are what I have been reporting - a bit of roughness and a lack of complete transparency as regards instrument timbres.

But I really like what I am hearing now - so long as I strictly give it that 15 minutes warm up time before listening. So i religiously now set a timer on the fridge and don't put on the headphones till 15 minutes is up. If I do this, I am never disappointed with the sound.

I am not saying the Tungsrams are the ant's pants - I actually have some NOS Mullards (Mitcham plant 1972 Dimple Getters) coming hopefully late next week, at which point I will do a prolonged shootout between them and the Tungsrams (I have created 10 very specific test files - excerpts from recordings each about 1 minute long - that will zoom in on the slightest, specific weaknesses of the tubes).

And if the Tungsrams are still the best - well, I am still pretty happy. With the appropriate warm-up time, this is the best amp I have heard in my house (or the speaker of headphone type) and it conveys a very effortless, dynamic feel. When I go back to the original tubes, they now sound fuzzy and soggy by comparison.

So, I hope no one makes the mistake I did and doesn't let the amp warm up properly if they don't have it on continuously. I often wonder whether manufacturers of valve equipment should not incorporate timers which prevent the device from actually amplifying anything until it senses it is 100% warmed up. It might prevent unjust criticism.

[mrarroyo]

Jon, although I listen from the moment I turn my amps on I only listen critically after 30-45 min after start up.

[treehugger]

That's odd, I have just opened up my V8P and discovered a pair of Electro Harmonix 6922EH sitting there! I bought this amp new, so it hasn't been fettled. Are these considered decent?

[treehugger]

Ah, it seems that others have had these fitted as stock too. Perhaps MF decided to finish the V8 range with a flourish. Well, Mikes russian EB's are in now and sounding funkier and bouncier. Good stuff.

[mrpharmacist]

I just tried the Jan/ Philips 6922's that were stock for my V3. They sounded good for a few Stooges songs but the dynamic range is a bit constricted- the bass 'floatier' and the treble very rolled off. No trouble with 'glare' but the overall SQ was starting to get a bit blarey the seperate instruments hard to pick out. The main thing though was they run really warm!
Switched the Raytheon 12AX7A's back in-running cooler, tightened bass, much airier. Far more attack, slam and decay.
Look the same as these (anyone else tried them?)

tctubes.com/Raytheon-12AX7-Japanese.aspx

Just ordered the 6H23P's from Mike so that'll be interesting. I think though if the stock tubes were all I had access to my listening time would steadily decrease to be honest.

[mrpharmacist]

6H (or N) 23P's fitted in. First impressions after 3-4 hours...
+dead quiet, run cool
-less bass slam, bit shrill, less pin-point imaging.

These are my first new/ NOS tubes.

What's the typical burn-in period?

[PinkFloyd]

What's the typical burn-in period?

A little bit more than 4 hours .... they should begin to even out after 24 hours or so.

Mike.