Problems with AB/ABX Testing

[Deleted]

From a recent "Computer Audiophile" thread.
A couple of the posts in this thread are exactly the reason why I no longer post in "Computer Audiophile" Forum.
I do however have a great deal of respect for the views of Clay and "Barrows". The extract here is from a post by "Barrows".
Alex

Submitted by barrows on Thu, 04/29/2010 - 12:50. Joined: 07/15/2008 .:. Offline .:. Comments: 273
Problems with AB, ABX testing
OK, I am going to weigh in once here to state my opinion and experiences for consideration in this discussion.
My experience is based on working for a high end audio company where I listen tested various components/systems/parts
for sonic performance evaluation as a small part of my job, as well listening to my own system and various "upgrades".
To my mind there are two main problems with "scientific" ABX style testing:
1. It is very difficult to setup a valid ABX test, as all parameters must be exactly the same for the test to have any hope of working.
Examples: testing two DACs, the input and source must be identical (same input cable, same source, etc), the positon of the DAC must be
identical in regard to proximity to other components (it must be on the same shelf on the rack),
one must use the same power cable and analog output cables, and the output must be connected to the same input on the preamp
(yes, different inputs will sound different). Both DACs will need to be well broken in, and warmed up equally
(preferably powered up for 24 hours prior to the test) and power should not be interupted to either component under test
during the course of the test. Considering these factors one can imagine how difficult it is to set up a good test of this type,
and how quick back and forth switching would be very difficult.
2. (and this is my main reason for not giving a lot of value to ABX testing)-ABX testing introduces a stress factor,
that is in opposition to how we really enjoy music. The stress produced by being under pressure to hear differences can be very distracting
from actually hearing those differences. In my experience I often tested products for work in my home system
(despite the fact that the reference system at work featured a dedicated listening room with better speakers than I have at home)
because it was much easier to relax at home, away from the pressures of the work environment.
I prefer longer term listening to determine the character of given components, using music that one knows well.
Big differences are easy to spot in quick ABX style testing,
\ but the small differences (which can be very meaningful for listening pleasure/emjoyment) are very hard to discern in quick testing.
Finally, one must accept that the enjoyment of listening to music in our homes is subjective in nature,
and absolute "scientific" differences in sound do not really matter when we are getting down to the small differences
(like the difference between a Berkeley Alpha DAC and a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC); we listen for musical enjoyment,
and we should test in a way that is similar to how we listen.

__________________

barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables

P.S.
Chris Connaker from Computer Audiophile requested that I do not post complete posts from his forum. I would encourage anybody who wished to join in that discussion, and some of the many other higher level discussions there, to visit Computer Audiophile and if they like what they see, register as a member there.
www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Controversy-ABX-testing?page=1

[Deleted]

That's well written post Alex. Thanks, I enjoyed it.

The 'stress' factor is something real. Listening at home, I naturally return to gear that I feel comfortable with in terms of sound rather than go for what someone tells me is better.

What I'm told is a 'neutral' sound is often not good for me at all either. It seems a bit daft in an audio forum to say something like that when we are all presumabely looking for nuetrality in sound reproduction, but in many cases, it doesn't work for me.

The way we hear is probably very complex and also tied up with our emotional states at the time of listening. That's why I don't like 'audio bullies' who will tell you to listen to this and what you're saying is nonsense because they say so. The communication factor is really important and I have no idea what that actually is.

So every time I return home from one of my musical ventures, I automatically reach for the equipment that I feel really comfortable with in terms of sound, leaving other items for a 'change' or curiousity.

My feelings about the HD600 and 650 are really strange. I often feel that they are too laid back... whatever and switch to something else for a period. However, when i return to the 600 or 650, it just feels right again. I have no idea why this is, but overall, they provide me with what I feel is a more comfortable sound in the long term. (For me, moreso the HD600)

I suppose taking measurements gives a basis to form an opinion but it certainly isn't the whole story as the Bravo series showed. That was really interesting in that I have an original and a modded version which is techically 'more correct' and it really is a close call if I'm honest.

In the long term - who knows, but I tend to hover naturally with what is comfortable with me in the end in spite of what anyone says in magazines or on forums.

Also, we probably all have different expectations of our equipment and it's really useful if you can find someone with a similar set of 'ears' as your own so you can compare notes. I certainly don't let measurements hamper my enjoyment of a transistor radio.

Ian

[Deleted]

All agreed.

Apart from mood it can also depend where the listener is coming from.

Have they ever heard the instruments concerned up close and personal? Or at least live. Do they even care?

A musician will have quite a different view of what is correct compared to producer, compared to a listener.

Our criticisms of playback are often based on different criteria, derived from experience and/or preconceptions.

Back to mood, I can happily listen to the G2/HD662b with a MD source late at night, just chillin'.

BUT, when in critical mode they just don't cut. eg a rim shot, if well recorded AND replayed the attack is very piercing, with a short ringing decay that is also different depending on the size and construction materials of the snare. (plus other factors)

It's a rare beast of a Hifi that can reproduce this convincingly, IMHO.

So trust your own ears to decide what makes you happy.

Lets face it, there is the majority out there who are very happy with their package systems/MP3 players/low res files etc. and think people who are forever chasing playback nirvana are simply insane.

I'm back off to my padded cell ;D

[Deleted]

May 1, 2010 14:50:29 GMT @cjarchez said:

I'm back off to my padded cell ;D

Drummer.

Actually, you're absolutely right. The drums are a killer to get right. The amount of dynamic range needed to actually capture it properly is humungous. Engineers always compress the living daylights out of it which is a great pity.

That's why perhaps I find most gear just don't get near it in all honesty!! It's a compromise and musicians just take that for granted and just get on with listening.

Ian

[rowuk]

I disagree. ABX is no harder to set up than any other decent comparison. We can measure voltage, sound pressure, impedance, etc. Matching cables, power blah, blah, blah. As we say in Germany : pipifax!

The difficulty is only in the conclusions that we draw from an ABX test, and they surely require somewhat less fantasy than remembering what you heard 10-30 minutes ago.

High end companies don't like ABX because they do not fare as well as they do with "subjective" tests. That is because the "differences" between top gear are only "great" in the poetic minds of the audiophile. Granted the small differences are important, but even they are audible with ABX. ABX still does not eliminate personal preference.

Look at it this way, when you are comparing things, you are in a different mode of listening, searching for the sublime. That analytical listeining is not the kick back and enjoy mode anyway. An ABX test will NOT tell you if you can live with the kit. It only gives you a description of what is DIFFERENT.

ABX can easily point out things in the frequency domain which is responsible for many of the differences that we hear. I am not talking about static frequency response, rather dynamic frequency response - the kits ability to respond linearly from high to low and from soft to loud at those highs and lows.

High quality audio reproduction is still science coupled with art. As much as the high enders would like to leave everything in the subjective realm, it is not necessary. I am sure that one day we will even figure out why solid state drives sound better than other types of storage media. That is demonstratable with ABX.

Why be afraid of the truth? The intelligent application of the laws of physics has made our artistic lives considerably more enjoyable. Just check out current chip technology for those wonderful ICs or storage, better batteries, portable high end. It goes on and on. I maintain ABX is a very important first step. When we have our short list of "worthy", then the art comes in - and that is different for every one of us.

[XTRProf]

I have to agree with the original views. Hearing is more a personal experience than purely technical. In ABX, we are just hearing a difference in reference to the person doing the job. That doesn't translates into something that MEANS that should be perceived by another or like by another. There are just too many perceptual alternatives to the same equation like biases, age, philosophy, sex, individual hearing responses, systems, environmental and other health factors. Can we say a person in rock will like something in classical or vice versa? Or can we say someone likes spagetti will like rice? Rock guitarists likes valves amps but some here will disagree. No, no ........, there will be no end to the stated subjective subject.

So just enjoy the music with whatever budgets you can crop up with and have fun. Join those hifi meets to have fun and learn more of the products than condemning something that you don't like as that's your personal opinion in relation to the system you have at home. There is just no right or wrong here to the subjective equation. Even the technical equation doesn't jive with what we hear and people are still insisting that purely technical is the one to go. I for one will not buy something that I don't like in my system as it's just incompatible in my system not matter how advance. Would anyone buy a clinical system that measures SOTA? No, no, not me at least.

[Sol]

All perfectly valid thoughts ... and to my mind absolutely the crux of the issue. While I can listen for subtle clues with music I know really well ... all opinion is subjective - and often the best measure is how much you connect with the piece being played - if your foot starts tapping, then something must be right even if you can't quite tell if the timbre for that instrument lost in the mix is correct. It's why I'm perfectly happy singing at the top of my voice in the car, while at times I can get uber-critical of the same piece back on the home gear. In many ways the car system is better within the context and frame of mind in which I was listening at the time!

[Deleted]

AB/ABX testing...

IMO Rowuk is right (no surprise there given my rep )
THE problem with subjective listening is that is is subjective.
THERE is NO way you can really compare an impression of some gear and compare it with other gear that is not switched directly.

Like Ian mentioned about his HD600/HD650..
sometimes laid back, sometimes quite right.

Every audiophile here has had a similar experience too.
You do not like certain gear, then after some time are forced to use it again and you are astowned how good it sounds.
Not like you remembered it.
Sometimes you can even fall in love with it again..
You can blame it on it not being used for some time or parts aging but will never blame yourself/conditions.

Also like CJarchez states where you come from is important.
Be it physical (noisy outdoor environment, or relaxed indoors) or what you just heard.
Heard something with rolled off highs for some time and a straight can sounds near sibilant and the other way around.

That's what is faulty about subjective.
If the mood/ambiance/time/state of mind e.t.c. is different the outcome will be different.

Whether you are foottapping or not is NOT only dependent on the gear 'somehow' being right it is highly likely that you're in a better mood at that time.

The stress factor on AB/X is ONLY there when there is little time to test things.
If you can AB/X in relaxed surroundings conditions AB/X is a valid test.
The fact that you can't hear differences you thought you heard in subjective tests showes (IMO) HOW much your hearing/perception can be influenced by MANY factors.
These factors are the same when AB-X (blind)
If these factors are taken out of the equasion ....

Just my opinion (after having done lots of AB/ABX and subjective tests..)

[Deleted]

Whether you are foottapping or not is NOT only dependent on the gear 'somehow' being right it is highly likely that you're in a better mood at that time.

Frans
I thought that only stressed out EEs from the Netherlands were the only ones who had complete mood swings over a period of several minutes ?
BTW, how did you decide that those flash gun capacitors made a worthwhile improvement to your amplifiers'performance ?
With your test instruments or your ears ?

The stress factor on AB/X is ONLY there when there is little time to test things.

That is complete and utter bullshit. It's all in the way the test is implemented.e.g. Closed minded people think that you should be able to silently switch between segments without informing the listener. That makes it almost impossible to concentrate on areas where you perceive possible differences.The longer the session, the harder it becomes to identify perceived differences because of short audibility retention times.
The longer you listen the harder it becomes to identify differences, even when there are proven measured differences.

Just my opinion (after having done lots of AB/ABX and subjective tests..)

That means buggerall. Many people are incapable of hearing small differences.Especially those with preconceived expectations !
Alex

[Deleted]

That means buggerall. Many people are incapable of hearing small differences.Especially those with preconceived expectations !


LOL... I have AB/ABX tested MANY people that CLAIMED they could (clearly) hear differences. ;D
Please explain to me WHY they cannot do that anymore while (blind) A-B testing.
This is not about my ability to hear correctly or not but about testing in general...

The stress factor Hahaha.. course that must be it.
It can't be your ears/brain/mood e.t.c. now can it ?

Connecting another device/toy and listening EXTRA carefull for differences doesn't change your mood/expectations eh ?
Never felt 'nervous' after receiving a new and longed for device/toy and connecting it with your new set of cables ?
Nahh.. that doesn't influence you at all !

and be nice Alex...
Friendlyness goes a long way.. even in a discussion.
(I hope the moving hasn't put a too high a toll on you)

the flashcap thing is a technical issue as I serviced both audio and photographic equipment and noticed the difference in risetime/current capabilities and investigated.
My affinity and intense interest in audio and audio myths helped of coarse.

[Deleted]

Just a thought about pure listening ...

It doesn't mean that the headphones or whatever are actually accurate sounding.

My impression of so called 'accurate' sounding equipment has been on the side of thinness. Whenever I've heard things (especially headphones) that are supposed to be 'reference type' accuracy, I have found them remarkably unengaging and thin, whatever mood I'm in.

This only makes me feel like I like colouration.

I have not found any headphone that is absolutely true to what I hear 'live'. I have often found headphones to be more 'detailed' than what I hear live!! (Like putting on a pair of glasses - it become sharper and more focussed).

For me, the bass end of headphones doesn't truly represent what I hear in live playing. Speakers are better in that respect.

I am truly puzzled by the Bravo sound - it's full of problems but I actually still like the sound of one. Maybe those distortions are what I'm used to hearing in a room?

A common thing with headphones is that the treble almost seems too exposed and thin.

However, the volume of the music also plays an important part on my perception of the sound that I hear. I find that different headphones snap into focus at different volumes on the same piece of music. (Relative to outside noise too)

In a quiet environment, I happy to listen at vetry low volumes and still perceive good highs and lows in the music. In noisy environments, it needs to be turned up and that's when I really notice the often nasty treble response in headphones.

So testing say, two sets of headphones with ears becomes quite complex, in that I tend to want to listen to one at one volue while another needs more or less to focus the sound and get a nice tonal balance on the same music.

Of course, I'm being really picky here, because, in the end, I don't give two figs about the amp or headphones as long as they don't get in the way of the music.

[Deleted]

AB-ABX headphones is impossible.
Speakers AB testing is also virtually impossible because speaker A has a resonance and influences speaker B next to it.
Also differences in efficiency must be 'corrected' when switching or changing HP's.
This is difficult to do.

You can AB(X) amps and playback equipment though.

When AB-X testing Bravo to 'normal' amp (done that) you do hear a difference.
Hear-able AND measurable results.
Which you prefer is a personal thing.

there are but a few 'good' (true) recordings and they need to be played back with speakers on the same level as the original was recorded to sound really good.

I absolutely agree with Ian that a recording/reproduction is only a mere reflection of the original.

Alas we can't all play ourselves or visit our favo musicians/bands whenever it suits us so we must do with our equipment/recordings.
All we can do is make the most of it the best we we can/see fit/can or want to affort and enjoy it.

Nice surroundings and peace of mind really helps greatly when appreciating music.
Whether it's your car stereo, home rig or (cheap) MP3 player with crappy buds.

AB testing equipment other then HP's/speakers/vinyl does give specific info about the equipment.
Not for everyone though.
These that trust their 'ears' the most (90% of members ?) will prefer subjective.

Nothing wrong with that if that puts a smile on their face !

But blaming a 'stress factor' when not hearing differences in AB/X testing anymore is a bit far fetched IMO.

[Deleted]

LOL... I have AB/ABX tested MANY people that CLAIMED they could (clearly) hear differences. Please explain to me WHY they cannot do that anymore while (blind) A-B testing.

Frans
Put simply, the tests despite the best intentions of the sceptical engineers and mathematicians who design them are skewed towards the results not reflecting what the subjectivist is able to hear in a relaxed home environment.For a long time , these tests were used to prove that all well designed amplifiers MUST sound the same.
That is utter garbage, and illustrates that the methodology used was flawed.
A very long thread in DIYAudio about speaker cables was terminated a day or so back after thousands of posts without either side backing away from the views expressed in the start of the thread. The same thing has happened in numerous other forums. The general view from the Objectivist side was put up or shut up. The opposing view from the other side was in effect, "why should I have to prove to you what I hear"
The simple fact is that far many more members of RG and other forums
believe they hear differences between headphone cables,power transformers and mains cables, loudspeaker cables, types of capacitors, different types of operational amplifiers, different types of thermionic valves with identical specifications etc., than the few members who claim that these differences are impossible. Some EEs even claim that 16bit 44.1KHZ redbook standard is perfectly adequate, and that higher resolution formats are a waste of time. Do you also agree with that ?
BTW, my comment about changes of mood , was intended to convey the situation where people can hear differences between musical items played within a short time frame, and it has nothing to do with changes of mood influencing the results. It is quite possible for a .wav file with high "jitter"to not stir the emotions to the same extent as the same .wav file with low "jitter", even when played in quick succession. The phrase "foot tapping" has been used to convey the difference as heard by the listener.
Note that I am using this word to cover timing as well as PSU related interactions. You have consistently rejected this proposition as impossible. Many members will have heard these differences with uploaded .wav files and seen my reports about .wav files sounding better when ripped directly to a non moving storage medium such as a quality USB pen, and played directly from there. Several RG and DIYAudio members have confirmed these findings. Attached is an excerpt from a very recent email that I have received.

Recently (well, two weeks ago), I dropped in on Alex and spent some time listening to his lounge room system before he packed it away for the move.

Two new items in his equipment lineup are a Western Digital TV live HD
media player, and a heavily modified (of course) Silicon Chip DAC.
The WDTV player has two USB ports for directly attached storage, and
outputs digital audio via TOS-Link only.

We played WAV files on a flash drive that was attached to the media
player, sent via TOS-Link to the Silicon Chip DAC, then via the Class
A and speakers.

With this setup, I can honestly say I have never heard better sound
from a Hi-Fi anywhere, ever. Very open, natural and revealing.
Extrordinarily clean bass.

I put this down to the WDTV producing a pristine low jitter signal
directly from the flash memory. Obviously the DAC is behaving in an
exemplorary manner too.

I was so impressed that I rushed out and purchased two WDTV mini media
players (the little brother to WDTV live HD) at $77ea from
officeworks. They don't have HD video, but I only want them for audio.....

My friend did of course imagine the improvements compared to the same tracks played directly into the same DAC via both an Oppo and a Pioneer SACD /DVD-A player, AND he is an I.T. professional, who was initially very sceptical about such claims.

Alex

[Deleted]

Alex,

We had this discussion too many times already.. (on and off forum)

Fact remains... when AB-X testing claimed differences cannot be heard by the same people that do hear these differences in subjective tests.

You say... the AB-X test is flawed.
I say: it's not.

You endorce: stress must(could ?) be the culprit that flaws the test
I say: come up with another explanation, IMO stress factor is flawed.

Regardless of how we may feel about the issue.

It's not about imagining it's about the POSSIBILITY of your sense's being fooled by circumstances.
I am not saying everbody that hears things aren't there.
I am not saying everyone on these forums are/must be mad/imagining things.
YOU HEAR it and others hear it, even I hear it !! no dispute there...
BUT the question remains...
Is your hearing/perception affected by mood/time/physical condition... you name it.
The answer to this question is... HELL YES !
Everybody on this forum KNOWS this and has experienced this.

When AB-X testing these factors are equal.
Most amps sound equal under these conditions.

Where is it justified to draw the conclusion that the test is flawed because under equal conditions NO differences can be heard ?

[Deleted]

When AB-X testing these factors are equal.Most amps sound equal under these conditions.

Exactly my point. Now either most amplifiers actually sound identical, OR there are blindingly obvious sound differences between the better amplifiers and an average amplifier to a discerning listener,that are not being revealed under ABX testing. Are you seriously suggesting that a high quality Class A amplifier with a very good PSU, will sound the same as a good quality Class AB amplifier with a small amount of crossover distortion,but otherwise excellent specifications ? I sincerely hope not !
Yes, we have had this discussion before, but you keep insisting that the vast majority of RG members must be imagining hearing differences between components and cables due to either mood, expectation or other causes.
I posted the original post in this area to give a viewpoint from a highly respected member of Computer Audiophile, who is associated with high end product development and testing.
If we are to believe all your negative responses to reports made by so many RG members, after modifications by people like Mike,or themselves,we may as well shut down Rock Grotto, as most of the modifications made to equipment designed by supposedly qualified engineers are all a waste of time, and the perceived improvements are all an expensive illusion.
I think that like DIYAudio did in their "difference between cables" thread, we should close this thread, because there is virtually no chance of ever reaching a consensus on this subject ?

[Deleted]

You are right about one thing.
There is never going to be consensus on this subject.
Has nothing to do with negativity or me saying everybody is mad and imagining things.
Just different point of views (Muslim vs Christian e.t.c.)

I think I hear the differences too until I AB them under equal conditions.
So probably I am mad and everybody that hears no differences during AB is mad too at that particular point in time.
IF you hear differences in AB (happens) then it it always something that is VERY measurable.

Sadly you condemn my views and call me skeptic e.t.c. WITHOUT coming with a good explanation WHY the high-end class A amps and some cheap (but technically good) amps cannot be distinguished in AB-X tests, yet when people KNOW what they are listening to DO hear differences.

I have tried that too by saying what was playing and then clearly flipped 'a' switch saying that another amp was playing while in fact the same amp was playing and they hear 'distinct' differences.

EXPLAIN that to me ?

And explain WHY most amps are indescernable from each other during (blind) AB- tests.

IF you can come up with a good explanation (not the stress factor) I can be 'converted'

Do not bother me with 'evidence' like... this and that person and he is an authority e.t.c.
Every Grotto member hears it.. I know... I hear it to.. until I do a GOOD conducted A-B test.

I have an explanation why subjective tests are flawed, and I can back it up.
Now you please EXPLAIN why objective tests are flawed without making me look like an unbelieving idiot that is absolutely wrong and call everybody that mods an idiot.
I am modding too and don't do a bad job with it either without being a GURU or AUTHORITY !

HOW is it that there are no differences heard.
I am SURE you have done AB- tests too and were NOT able to tell differences at that point also.
That MUST have annoyed you.

[Deleted]

Now you please EXPLAIN why objective tests are flawed without making me look like an unbelieving idiot that is absolutely wrong and call everybody that mods an idiot.

Frans
None of the much smarter than me , and highly qualified members of diyA and CA , could post anything to sway any of the Objectivist camp's members there, so I have a snowflake's chance in hell of convincing you ! ;D I have yet to see any similar thread in other forums reach some kind of consensus either. At least we haven't ended up using phrases with the "F word "in them, like in at least one other forum !

WHY the high-end class A amps and some cheap (but technically good) amps cannot be distinguished in AB-X tests, yet when people KNOW what they are listening to DO hear differences.

Our little listening group has had several amplifier comparison sessions, which included some pretty decent AB 100W/Ch and 20W Class A ,as well as my 15W Class A , and all were in agreement that the 15W /Ch sounded better.It is human nature to think that your own very well built and high performance amplifier sounds best. However, we were all in agreement. The beauty of listening sessions like this, is that with the free exchange of information as well, that all the amplifiers end up improving.




Alex
P.S.
I guess that you believe that the major Hi FI shows, especially in the U.S.A., are a waste of time too ?

[Deleted]

No... No waste of time..

It's fun, a lot of money goes around and you can see/test things you personally like !!
There is something to everybodies liking and one can dribble over stuff you can never afford.
Will it do better in an AB-X test ? likely not.
Will it do better in subjective tests and at home... YOU bet it will.

Now what's more important to you... converting stupid guys like me or tinkering, making people happy with your advice/mods and enjoying what you are doing. ?

I thought so too.

Just ... NO explanation (there is one, but 99% won't accept it) as to HOW things sound the same in AB-X and not in subjective tests.

THAT's why there are so many Guru's, firms and people making lots of money in this business.
And if you don't mind paying for it then no harm done...

Hope the moving went/goes smooth !
Get some well deserved rest while enjoying music on your fav. equipment.


Our little listening group has had several amplifier comparison sessions, which included some pretty decent AB 100W/Ch and 20W Class A ,as well as my 15W Class A

Did you do blind AB's or just comparison and people knowing what was playing ?

[Deleted]

Hope the moving went/goes smooth !Get some well deserved rest while enjoying music on your fav. equipment.

Frans
The removalist is due on Tuesday. As from a couple of hours ago, the WD TV Live and linear PSU, SC DAC and Corsair Voyager is on loan to my friend from that email for comparison purposes, and most of my gear is in boxes at the new address. ATM, I am even watching DTV using the headphone amp and ATH W1000 ! Why does the average STB audio out have to sound so crappy compared to via a good DAC ?
Alex
P.S.
None of us believe in blind AB. Even my friend from RG who gave me such a hard time about checksums was in agreement.
IF you really believe that all amplifiers sound the same with ABX, you should include in the test the "Destroyer X" amplifier (DX) that so many from diyA constructed. It would have to be the most harsh sounding amplifier that I have ever had the misfortune to listen too !
P.P.S.

THAT's why there are so many Guru's, firms and people making lots of money in this business.
And if you don't mind paying for it then no harm done...

Like you, I have never made any money from electronics. I would rather give stuff away and encourage people in the hobby, than profit from it.

[Deleted]

I listen mostly to MPoop3 (as you affectionally call it).
There is LOTS of differences in SQ from these devices. (like STB out)
Difficult to find one that is cheap AND has good SQ.
O.K. not good SQ for you but 320kBs is fine with me when on the move/vacation or at work.
b.t.w. the differences between these things can be measured so are very real to me.
Don't feel the need to AB them as I can measure (big) differences.

I recommend the Sansa Clip+ (No.. don't work for nor have connections with Sandisk) for cheap and good SQ MP3 player.
Myself I have Frontierlabs NEXIIe and lots of NEXiA(+) players.
They don't make 'm anymore.
Excellent SQ as long as you don't use the EQ settings.
I know you hate these buggers.. great for on the move though.

Indeed I do not make money on audio business (like you) and prefer to help people instead of ripping them off (this really happens a lot in audioland as you'll agree and I hate it)

I am a firm believer in blind AB (and certain conspiracy theories)..

If an amp sounds very bad it is very likely to do that in AB tests too.

[derekrumble]

May 20, 2010 13:26:31 GMT @solderdude said:

I listen mostly to MPoop3 (as you affectionally call it).
There is LOTS of differences in SQ from these devices. (like STB out)
Difficult to find one that is cheap AND has good SQ.
O.K. not good SQ for you but 320kBs is fine with me when on the move/vacation or at work.
b.t.w. the differences between these things can be measured so are very real to me.
Don't feel the need to AB them as I can measure (big) differences.

I recommend the Sansa Clip+ (No.. don't work for nor have connections with Sandisk) for cheap and good SQ MP3 player.
Myself I have Frontierlabs NEXIIe and lots of NEXiA(+) players.
They don't make 'm anymore.
Excellent SQ as long as you don't use the EQ settings.
I know you hate these buggers.. great for on the move though.

Indeed I do not make money on audio business (like you) and prefer to help people instead of ripping them off (this really happens a lot in audioland as you'll agree and I hate it)

I am a firm believer in blind AB (and certain conspiracy theories)..

If an amp sounds very bad it is very likely to do that in AB tests too.

Compressed and lossy audio formats are great for what they are good at. Perfect when storage constaints are the limiting factor. But with storage getting bigger and cheaper then maybe MP3 and so on will become less popular? I don't think so because your average non-audio-buff is SO familiar with MP3 and will default to the format.

I use MP3 (at 320kBs wherever possible) for travelling; I used to take my Technics personal CD player but carrying even half a dozen CDs was a bit of a bother. My car audio has a USB socket - just plug in say, a 4Mb stick, and it's good. Very good in fact.

Horses for courses as we say.

Derek

[Deleted]

WHY the high-end class A amps and some cheap (but technically good) amps cannot be distinguished in AB-X tests, yet when people KNOW what they are listening to DO hear differences.

There has to be expectation playing a large role here, driven by price difference, brand favouritism etc.

I'll throw this in the mix;

1) I put this down purely to brand sound familiarity, when I was in the specialist HiFi trade, one of our dem rooms was quite large with several high price systems in situ, the staff would regularly have a set up running, the others would be on and running but without speakers in order to test my claim that I could tell the difference.
I could easily tell which system was driving the speakers. No magic, no golden ears, just experience.

2) When interviewing a prospective new member of staff I would ABX two systems to them. I deliberately misinformed them as to which system was the higher value. When it came to the X (the cheaper value as chosen by me) test they NEVER chose the real costlier system, nearly always being unable to tell the difference.
Existing staff would nearly always say X was the costlier option.

No experience vs preconception IMHO.

Mood etc, is a wholly different issue.

[rowuk]

I am convinced that audible differences do exist, that they are repeatable and mostly in the frequency domain. Small differences in frequency response are the real issue. They can be caused by impedance mismatches or damping of transducers. Bandwidth is only a real issue when there is substantial content outside of the audible passband. That RF or infrasonic garbage can cause artifacts in the audible range by heterodyning. Other differences I feel are mostly "experts" verbal masturbation.

The issue is more of definition than actual measured results. What makes something soung "good", "better" or "best". It sure isn't any spec that I am familiar with!