Indeed G2 tweaks and bias adjustment

[Deleted]

Mick, you're very welcome - nice to be able to put a bit back - just hope it works.
Dave.

[leo]

Looks excellent Mick, I love it

[PinkFloyd]

One word.... AWESOME! I wouldn't have expected anything other than perfection from you Mick but those heatsinks are just out of this world man

You are a TRUE Maestro with the metal.... no wonder Nagaoka employed you for their cartridges.... superb stuff

[Deleted]

One word.... AWESOME! I wouldn't have expected anything other than perfection from you Mick but those heatsinks are just out of this world man

Thanks Mike and every body else who have commented, i will implement Daves suggestion, and something else i have in mind, to get it as efficient as possible.

Mike, i will send the duplicate set i have made up to you. If you send me your top plate BACK with the V-CAN i will bore the holes in it for you( trust me you don`t want to be doing that its a tricky job to do in acrylic sheet, the original large Dia hole is done with an extremely high pressure water jet)

When i get the time i will make 2 more sets, and if acceptable to you, perhaps you could make those a competition prize.

Mick.

[clausdk]

Maybe a hole in the bottom would be better, otherwise it just draws the air from "outside" the amp, if the holes are in the bottom it will get acces to the hottest air and should work even better..

[PinkFloyd]

Apr 10, 2010 23:09:14 GMT @clausdk said:

Maybe a hole in the bottom would be better, otherwise it just draws the air from "outside" the amp, if the holes are in the bottom it will get acces to the hottest air and should work even better..

Yeh.... let's drill a mama honker hole right through the PCB...... erm.... think about it ;D

[clausdk]

Apr 10, 2010 23:14:34 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Apr 10, 2010 23:09:14 GMT @clausdk said:

Maybe a hole in the bottom would be better, otherwise it just draws the air from "outside" the amp, if the holes are in the bottom it will get acces to the hottest air and should work even better..

Yeh.... let's drill a mama honker hole right through the PCB...... erm.... think about it ;D

Only through the new heatsink so that it ends next to the heatsink that is already there..
There is no reason to drill a hole through the PCBs as it does not generate heat..

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2010 23:20:03 GMT @clausdk said:

Apr 10, 2010 23:14:34 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Yeh.... let's drill a mama honker hole right through the PCB...... erm.... think about it ;D

Only through the new heatsink so that it ends next to the heatsink that is already there..
There is no reason to drill a hole through the PCBs as it does not generate heat..

The cooling should be more than adequate with the new arrangements without drilling additional holes.

[Deleted]

Only through the new heatsink so that it ends next to the heatsink that is already there..

Trouble is you would also decrease the surface area of contact between the vertical finned cylinder and its mounting point with the new heat transfer block between the 2 standard sinks.

So you'd lose any gain made with the holes, that maybe why Mick elected for horizontal holes at the lower end of the cylinder.

[Deleted]

Beautiful work Mick.

What about dropping a couple of pistons into those 'cylinders' and you'd really have a portable amp

Syd

[clausdk]

Apr 10, 2010 23:30:18 GMT @cjarchez said:

Only through the new heatsink so that it ends next to the heatsink that is already there..

Trouble is you would also decrease the surface area of contact between the vertical finned cylinder and its mounting point with the new heat transfer block between the 2 standard sinks.

So you'd lose any gain made with the holes, that maybe why Mick elected for horizontal holes at the lower end of the cylinder.

If you look on Mick´s pictures you will see that the cylinder is wider than the mountingplate, so drilling holes there would not decrease the surface contact area..

But it will be able to draw some of the hot air inside the amp to the outside..

[Deleted]

Would it not be a more effective cooler if you put some holes in the bottom and/or around the bottom of the VW cylinders such that the inside of the cylinders acted as a chimney and drew cooling air in at the bottom and out at the top.

Small holes drilled in bottom of heat sink Dave, and 2 extra grooves in heat sink bracing bar.




Mick

[Deleted]

Mick,

The heatsink bracing bar will conduct heat MUCH better without the 2 cuts (you have created a thermal resistor now and it won't transfer the heat to your lovely cooling towers as much)

Cooling fins work best when they are positioned vertically (like the original heatsinks)

I like the looks of the vertical big 'cylinders' though.
the small holes in the bottom of the cylinders won't do anything, no air will travel through those holes and traveling air is what's needed for cooling action.

Solderdude

[Deleted]

Cooling fins work best when they are positioned vertically (like the original heatsinks)

No they don`t Frans, the whole purpose of a heat sink is to create as large a Surface area in a given space as possible, what ever the orientation of the fins, makes very little difference. You have obviously never seen an air cooled motorcycle engine other than a BMW.

Regarding the the small holes in the bottom of the cylinders, the theory is correct, in case you didn`t know hot air rises, and by doing so the pressure difference will create a venturi action, drawing cooler air in through these holes.
In practice due to the very small volume of air within this cylinder, very little cooling benefit will be derived, but even these small holes will add extra surface area.

Mick.

[Deleted]

Mick, all I can say is you're an absolute artist with metal. Can I have a set please, mounted artistically on a nice piece of well grained wood. I just want to put them on the sideboard and admire them .
Cheers,
Dave.

BTW I'm glad I read your comments on the difficulty of drilling the perspex top and bottom plate AFTER I'd drilled and filed mine ;D .
FWIW i didn't experience any difficulty at all and my tools are the cheapest available (Lidl etc )

[Deleted]

FWIW i didn't experience any difficulty at all and my tools are the cheapest available (Lidl etc )

Anything up to around 12mm in dia is not a problem, if you would like to try a 22mm hole Dave, i will send a plate up to you, and you can let me know how you get on with it!!

Mick.

[MaN227]

I just have to comment on the hole drilling. As this has my interest for similar project enclosures. I don't know CNC so this is what I will give a go.
IF you are careful in how you go about it, I feel it can be done without too much worries. I will be experimenting before too long myself and will post results. Here are the methods I will try first.

First thing I will do is buy a practice piece of plexi . next get painters tape and tape off surface of plexi on BOTH sides of it where the hole is to be(will make marking it easier too). With a drill press or even a hand drill I will try drill press first. clamp your taped, marked plexi to a block of wood, (second choice is to sandwich plexi between 1/4 inch plywood with pilot hole drilled before clamping it down)
I have done small holes 1/4 inch and smaller, no probs at all drill away I can see potential for cracking or burning/melting with too much torque or speed.
cutter? I will try a paddle bit( if hole saw don't cut it lol cut it
a hole saw(from a door knob, key hole kit.) again the size of center bit I feel has to be small enough, that could be an issue to find , not sure yet, as I don't have the door hole kit

cutting well I think the whole key to this is to NOT apply ANY pressure allow the tool to do the work at a moderate speed, too slow and torque will put undue pressure against material and force it to give and crack, too fast it will melt or burr.

the tape on surface I feel is going to be key, as is support under it is a MUST.

have to experiment with speed and torque. to find what gives the best result.

a totally different idea that may work is same prep, taping marking drilling small pilot hole. but instead of hole saw, do a rough cut with a hand jigsaw with a fine tooth blade cutting like your cutting pizza slices close to the edge line but not to it, then take off all the pizza slices. should leave you with a nice round hole with ugly rough edges.
Next drum sander bit on drill press to take it out to edges with a bit that is just slightly smaller than the hole and it should come out round enough to look round even it its not perfectly round.

and third is same jigsaw cutting , THEN taping edges and cut with hole saw, simply setting the hole saw down on plexi to line up with your line.

that is what I will try, I think it may take a few test runs but will come out with nice result in the end. Oh and if you all are wondering how the hell is he going to drill on mark between wood sandwich, I'm NOT, that is the beauty of it, make the hole/s first THEN cut the outside diameter of the whole top.

or here is another idea , super EASY ;D
ditch the stupid plexi all together, as it really don't do phuckk all anyway ;D problem solved ;D

EDIT: I can't believe I didnt' think of this when typing this out. but the very first thing I will use is a Forstner Bit, In my mind it will give the cleanest cut, better than anything I can think of. ;D

oh well the sun it shines and beckons me to movement today. off to the woods all , Peace

[PinkFloyd]

Apr 11, 2010 14:08:04 GMT @heliharris said:

Cooling fins work best when they are positioned vertically (like the original heatsinks)

No they don`t Frans, the whole purpose of a heat sink is to create as large a Surface area in a given space as possible, what ever the orientation of the fins, makes very little difference. You have obviously never seen an air cooled motorcycle engine other than a BMW.

Regarding the the small holes in the bottom of the cylinders, the theory is correct, in case you didn`t know hot air rises, and by doing so the pressure difference will create a venturi action, drawing cooler air in through these holes.
In practice due to the very small volume of air within this cylinder, very little cooling benefit will be derived, but even these small holes will add extra surface area.

Mick.

I agree..... I have driven English and Japanese bikes... Frans is talking out of his arse on this one

[Deleted]

I drive a suzuki GS450E (have had other bikes too)

brush up on cooling using air convection (cooling fin's/towers) and conduction (stud between the 2 fins and upper cooling tower) there is ton's of info on the web.
I was just trying to HELP Mick.. NOT bashing me as you are doing, again, Mike.

on MC cooling air travels in the horizontal plane as the bike rides hence horizontal or vertical (BMW) fins for optimal cooling.

hot air travels UP and can do so most effectively when the fins are vertically (free air convection cooling).
thermal conduction needs as much material as possible (aluminum or even better copper)

If I am talking out of my arse then take a look in ALL amplifiers where serious cooling is needed and you will find vertical fins they will only be mounted otherwise (mounted pointing up) or when forced cooling (fan) is used.

Ventury action needs PRESSURE difference and air flow above a certain airspeed to work.
TONs of info on this too.

Regarsless of this I truly like Mick's work and love the cooling towers.
They LOOK way better with the horizontal fins then with vertical fins.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2010 7:48:14 GMT @solderdude said:

I was just trying to HELP Mick.. NOT bashing me as you are doing, again, Mike.

If I am talking out of my arse then take a look in ALL amplifiers where serious cooling is needed and you will find vertical fins
Regarsless of this I truly like Mick's work and love the cooling towers. They LOOK way better with the horizontal fins than with vertical fins.

Hi Frans,
Being a fellow victim of Mike's off-beat sense of humour, which seems to go hand in hand with his debating skills, I can assure you that that's all it is, humour, (in Mike's opinion anyway - that is something else that Mike and I (and possibly you?) could debate ). Don't just take my word for it, I have it on good authority from someone who knows him far better than I that it's Mike sense of fun ). Hope he can take it as well as give it ;D .
I'm sure it doesn't reflect any loss or lack of respect for you or your opinions, he just likes to have a go - my advise is have a go back, I'm sure you can think of plenty of 'hooks' to hang your return views on - if not we could start a thread asking members for suggestions
Good Morning Mike - just standing up for a fellow gentle soul - no offence.
Dave.

[Deleted]

brush up on cooling using air convection (cooling fin's/towers) and conduction (stud between the 2 fins and upper cooling tower) there is ton's of info on the web.I was just trying to HELP Mick.. NOT bashing me as you are doing, again, Mike.

The problem you have Frans, is that the theory, which obviously you read in every book available, does not always apply in practice. I spend my working life transferring perfect theoretical drawings in to parts that are returned to be modified, why, because the theory falls flat, and its back to the CAD to be modified, and lets try again.

All the figures you produce concerning electronics may very well apply to give a perfect sounding Amp, my knowledge on this subject is sadly lacking so i DO NOT voice an opinion, but i do know a reasonable amount about mechanical engineering.

Fins would hardly be needed if you could provide a constant flow of air over the G2 , or any Amplifier, or any air cooled engine. There main roll is to provide cooling when the object is "powered up" and Stationary.

My design works very efficiently with the horizontal fins, and grooves in the bracing bar thank you Frans,, if you or anybody else disputes this, i would be prepared to ship it, and wait for your opinions on a reply in this thread.

Mick.

[PinkFloyd]

Apr 12, 2010 8:50:22 GMT @davek said:

Apr 12, 2010 7:48:14 GMT @solderdude said:

I was just trying to HELP Mick.. NOT bashing me as you are doing, again, Mike.

If I am talking out of my arse then take a look in ALL amplifiers where serious cooling is needed and you will find vertical fins
Regarsless of this I truly like Mick's work and love the cooling towers. They LOOK way better with the horizontal fins than with vertical fins.

Hi Frans,
Being a fellow victim of Mike's off-beat sense of humour, which seems to go hand in hand with his debating skills, I can assure you that that's all it is, humour, (in Mike's opinion anyway - that is something else that Mike and I (and possibly you?) could debate ). Don't just take my word for it, I have it on good authority from someone who knows him far better than I that it's Mike sense of fun ). Hope he can take it as well as give it ;D .
I'm sure it doesn't reflect any loss or lack of respect for you or your opinions, he just likes to have a go - my advise is have a go back, I'm sure you can think of plenty of 'hooks' to hang your return views on - if not we could start a thread asking members for suggestions
Good Morning Mike - just standing up for a fellow gentle soul - no offence.
Dave.

Correct It's just my "way" no disrespect meant or intended. I have always assumed I am interacting with "men" on this forum, not nancy boys who find every offbeat remark as "offensive".... I was not "having a go" at Frans, I was simply saying he was talking out of his arse on this one.

Dave, I love a bit of banter.... bring it on, I can take it

[Deleted]

I know it works well.
It should.. there is a lot of cooling surface added to the already present fins.
It WILL run much cooler.
I do not dispute this at all.
I merely made some suggestions for your benefit.
Sorry if You feel offended in anyway.
Just trying to HELP.
Have loads of experience with cooling electronics parts merely liked to give you some additional pointers.
I am not a theoretical person but a man (well perhaps not to some ;D) of practice like yourself.

If you could make something similar for the LM317's that would be fantastic because this is badly needed when I mod these amps.
they will run a lot hotter then the MOSFET's and need lots of cooling.
In Ian's amp I used a, horizontal mounted, square piece of aluminum plate to mount the LM317A's on below the amp, it replaces the bottom acrylic plate.

I do not have a Bravo/Indeed amp ( I only modded Ian's and if you like will mod yours too FOC if Ian likes it) so I personally do not need a set.
I have my own design amps (hybrid and SS) that do not need (much) cooling.

[MaN227]

er..... um..... ahem.... ok ;D

not to interfere with your colorful banter but .... what about these hole to cut in top? I'd love to hear thoughts on my intended course of action.

first thing that came to my mind on the cooling towers is from wood working. its much much much easier to cut the fins/grooves on a lathe, and with a template easy as pie as you would need NO hand cutting, simply allow it to follow the template and remove stock. (assuming metal lathe's to be very similar to wood lathe's.)conversely cutting what would be vertical fins/grooves would be most challenging with wood and I will assume with metal as well.

matter of fact I can't see in my head that I have EVER seen a round heatsink with vertical fins. afterall what really matters here is like Mick said, creating more surface area. that is why they added a second set of heatsinks to the G2 to begin with.

now my simple man thoughts on horizontal vs vertical. I simply can't see how H could move more heat than V without secondary airflow. looking at heat sig photos I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that H would show more red than the V fins.

but after all this discussion its neither here nor there, now is it? this is not a planet threatening heat we are talking about, but cooling a simple amp. ANY added heat sinks should improve the removal of heat regardless of fin orientation.

I think I see why Mick took the course he did in making these, and I also see what Fran's is trying to say as well.

here is one for all you folks "in the know". I wonder if heatsinks were made like a threaded rod (like a screw) if that would not create a sort of venturi/vortez action. not sure if the heat itself would move enough to speed the air on its way. mind u I'm just the court jester thinking out loud. anyone ever see the candle carousels? with simple thin 6 blade fans that balance atop a thin rod and make it turn. maybe a rod out of the top of the heatsink/chimney with a small fan blade would draw more heat up and out and away? crazy probably but oh well. I can laugh at myself for being an idiot lol

so let's play nice boys or we can just all throw stones at each other. ;D

End of the day a Fine job Mick, I think they are totally kick ass mate, and I don't give a flip how much more (or less ) heat it moves, I LOVE them

Peace

[Deleted]

matter of fact I can't see in my head that I have EVER seen a round heatsink with vertical fins. afterall what really matters here is like Mick said, creating more surface area. that is why they added a second set of heatsinks to the G2 to begin with.

Almost all "box section heat sinks", are made from extruded Aluminium, in simple terms, a large round or square bar of Aluminium is pushed or pulled through a die the same shape as the finished item,under extreme pressure, producing long lengths of the finished item. This is very cost effective, no machining required, and produces very little waste, this is then cut to the required length by the heat sink suppliers, and fitted to your Amplifier, or bought from retail suppliers already cut for your own needs.

It is impossible to extrude an item with radial fins, every facet has to be longitudinal therefore they have to be machined from solid, or in the case of engine cylinders, usually cast in a mold, then the bore and any other flat surfaces, holes etc are machined after. Injection moulding is becoming a popular and ever increasing cost effective method for Aluminium box section now, as it was primarily used for far more intricate and closer tolerance work requirements, mainly in plastics.

I could have milled vertical fins in my cylinders, slightly more work required, perhaps another hour for the 4off i made, but to my eye i think the radial fins are more in keeping with the style of the Amp, and complement the already protruding Valve, same applies to the small ones on the back, the 2 steel assembly screws, and the one steel stud act the same as the bolts that Frans has read about in his internet books.

Hopes this helps Chaz.

Mick.