CD Player Tweak: Snake Oil or Real?

[mrarroyo]

Hi guys, in another forum I read of a relatively cheap tweak involving some CD Players. Enclosed you will find a link to the SID and I would like your opinion if you have one. If you do not have one do you think it is non-sense or ? Thanks.

www.highend-electronics.com/35.html

[Nigel]

I use a Ringmat Statmat CDi Blue & love it.

[Deleted]

I've got a SID. To be honest, I don't notice much with it. Got to be careful and make sure it's lined up with the CD because it can get caught up with the CD drawer. Not that impressed. Copy a CD and try just painting the back of one of the CD's green and leave the other alone. I can't hear anything different!

They also say that it depends on how much of the writing can be seen through the CD when you have a look with light coming from say, the window......

Better than those old pens that we used to draw green around the edges of the CD I suppose 'cos it's not permanent.

Ian

[clausdk]

green and red does not become black when mixed, black is the absense of colour and can not be obtained by blending to colours..

Try taking a red and green led and make them produce darkness when they are mixed or make a red light make a black spot on a green thing.

red and green more or less cancel each other out when mixing paint, if the colour is a bit to red a splash of green can help, but it wll never become black, it will become brownish, but this is paint it behaves a bit different than light..

Anyway, there has been talk about green pens and CDs for as long as I recall.

But this is what I do not get why not use black ?? black does not reflect light and are harder to shine through than green..

[Deleted]

But this is what I do not get why not use black ?? black does not reflect light and are harder to shine through than green..

Wasn't there talk of using old floppy discs, removed from their covers, on top CDs for this?

I have only tried a cd mat a long time ago, can't remember the make but it was one of the early ones. Tried in several different players, seemed to work a little in CDPs with cheapy mechs, but anything better I couldn't hear any difference at all, back then.

[pjc68]

These are supposed to be good mats
www.analogueseduction.net/product/Marigo_Labs_3D_Stealth_CD_Mat_ML-SM
I read in a magazine that they are better than the statmat and
sid mat too.
I use these
www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=5420&cust
the relees anti static spray can also be used on cd player cd trays
and tt and tone arms.
paddy

[Deleted]

The Marigo 3-D Stabilizer Mat is designed to extract the most from your SACD, DVD-A, DVD-V, and CD discs by addressing issues centered around vibration, stray magnetism, static, and optical diffraction.

pjc68
There is at present a thread in DIY AUdio where the vast majority of these claims are debunked by an expert in the field who holds several patents in the optical area .
Vibration reduction I have no problems with, as I use 3M 2552 tape to help reduce internal and external vibration in both optical and HDDs.
I certainly would be wary of using any spray that may affect the surface of a CD. Recently a Computer Audiophile member uploaded some comparison CD tracks. The tracks were after a Clean, demag and Ion treatment procedure. The 3 people involved expected that the treated versions may sound better. We ALL agreed that the untreated versions sounded better ! The 3 people involved were "silverlight"who is a Computer Audiophile member from NYC, and Jeff C and myself from RG.

There is some stuff in the thread that I strongly disagree with ,but I found the attached of interest.
SandyK

anatech
diyAudio Moderator




Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Georgetown, On Hi Scott,

Quote:
The SPDIF data once recoverd is (in the ideal case) EXACTLY the same data as on the CD.

I'm always reticent to disagree with you as you do know what you are talking about. However, in this case I can't agree with you on this.

This statement has ignored the one point that has been made several times. The fact is, if you have but one C2 flag, the data is no longer the same as what was encoded onto the CD. It may be exact, but this is quite by chance because the internal DSP has "made the value up" from the best information it had to go on. The C1 flag signals the DSP that this data is bad. So flagged, the data is discarded and an attempt is made to reconstruct what the value was from the spread out information encoded in neighboring data sets. So a C1 error indicates that particular value, or data set, is bad and can not move beyond the C1 error corrector stage where it is replaced with information that was spread in other local data. This also reduces the ability to correct other bad blocks of data for that distributed information. Once the C2 flag has been set, the data can not be repaired or figured out from distributed data. C2 means that the value is gone with recovery impossible - end of story. This will occur with a hair or fingerprint, and these are transient errors. So, the interpolated value may be correct, or it may not. All it has to be is close to disguise that one single error. If the next couple data sets are also damaged, the C1 correction system has no way to restore the data, this is a C2 flag all the way and things are getting ugly. In no way will the information be identical to what was encoded on the CD.

The only possible way to compare what comes out a digital data port with what is on the CD is to have access to the formatted CD data image. That's the one in the recording studio - the only accurate representation of what is supposed to come off the disc. Don't forget about the very creation of a CD (pressing the blank, then applying the metalization) will not be perfect. there is a metric to indicate production quality, and that is the average BLER figure. Even the master stamper will have errors and a BLER rate.

What you can do is compare what data the CD player has come up with and compare that to what goes "down the pipe" from the SPDIF to your other device. Additional error correction and a more robust delivery system reduces data errors to a tiny fraction of what is normal for the CD as a data delivery system. However, if you want to use the CD as your reference, you will never get a "bit perfect" transfer. That is realistically unattainable as a goal.

The thing that should grab your attention about the state of the art in CD player technology is the general absence of those C1 and C2 error flag test points. Consider that the earlier machines generally had more stable data coming off the disc. Less jitter (I had a jitter meter, one of those Leader things that cost me too much at the time) and a less noisy eye pattern (RF pattern) that was stable in it's amplitude. These machines had those test points (C1 & C2) available as well - or most of them). Look at today's transports! They are complete junk compared to first and second generation machines. Test CDs were available (and expensive, Philips 5A was about $250). These are not test tones. These CDs were made to a high quality with known RF amplitude and very low defects in other areas. Then there were installed defects to a standard. Each defect had known properties and were thus suitable for checking and setting up a CD player. These discs were also used to prove to a customer that their CD player was in fact operating correctly. These days, real test discs are difficult to find. The ones with controlled defects and signal quality. It would be notable if there were access to the C1 and C2 type flags. So we now have transports that generate very poor signals, lower quality CDs as media and no error indication available to quantify the signal quality. There is one way though. Access the RF or Eye Pattern test points and examine that. The waveform at this point will tell you a great deal about the quality of the CD player and /or quality of the media (the disc).

Sorry for the continuity with this post, it's time to lay down a bit.

-Chris
__________________
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" © my Wife
The 3 people involved were 'Silverlight" who is a NYC member of Computer Audiophile, and Jeff C and myself from Rock Grotto.

www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/159992-ultimate-sound-improving-compact-discs-through-patent-pend-cd-sound-improver-11.html

[Deleted]

Jan 31, 2010 16:55:09 GMT mrarroyo said:

Hi guys, in another forum I read of a relatively cheap tweak involving some CD Players. Enclosed you will find a link to the SID and I would like your opinion if you have one. If you do not have one do you think it is non-sense or ? Thanks.

www.highend-electronics.com/35.html

Miguel
When using this mat ,are the 1s and 0s recovered from the CD any different to without the mat , or are they exactly the same according to checksums, if the CD tracks were to be saved as .wav files via a good soundcard's SPDIF Input ? If this is so , then it must be a load of Snake Oil !
Anybody who believes that adding a mat on top of their CDs to help stabilise the CD, and reduce vibration, then hears an improvement in SQ must be deluding themselves.
After all it is just a digital stream, and if the bloody 1s and 0s are still the same, according to the "experts", THEN IT MUST BLOODY WELL SOUND THE SAME, AND EVERYBODY WHO THINKS OTHERWISE IS SUFFERING FROM A COMMON DELUSION, that will be dispelled by using the good old DBT !
Alex





(D.B.T. = Double Blind Test)

[pjc68]

Sandyk
The marigo labs disc was in a reveiw of discs in a magazine someone
give me (audiocandy), i dont own or never heard one of these, it
was just a suggestion for this thread.
As for the reveel and relees, i have used these for nearly 10 yrs, i
judge with my ears not specs and can tell you they make a worth
while improvement, the noise floor becomes quieter and smoother
and more refined making it less fatiguing to listen to.
I dont blame you being sceptical as there is enough snakeoil in
this bussiness.
paddy

[Deleted]

Jan 31, 2010 22:21:49 GMT pjc68 said:

Sandyk
The marigo labs disc was in a reveiw of discs in a magazine someone
give me (audiocandy), i dont own or never heard one of these, it
was just a suggestion for this thread.
As for the reveel and relees, i have used these for nearly 10 yrs, i
judge with my ears not specs and can tell you they make a worth
while improvement, the noise floor becomes quieter and smoother
and more refined making it less fatiguing to listen to.
I dont blame you being sceptical as there is enough snakeoil in
this bussiness.
paddy

paddy
See also my reply to Miguel.
I am not in disagreement about disc stabilisation without bevelling the edges, which could eventually lead to the degradation of the CD due to atmospheric contamination of the reflective layer.
Use of some of the other products may lead to a smoother sound, but from the experiment we did, it caused a small loss of immediacy,detail and soundstage. In other words it wasn't as accurate. However, if something in your system is causing fatigue during listening, then it may be making life easier for you.
Alex

[Nigel]

Just try one & see what you think Miguel, they don't cost too much & you could always sell it on if you are not impressed.

[Nigel]

I have an old thing here, an Audio Technica disc stabilizer. It's pretty heavy, circa 1990, now that was a waste of money, I couldn't hear any difference, I couldn't even imagine I heard the differences I was supposed to either.

[Deleted]

Feb 1, 2010 7:06:06 GMT Nigel said:

Just try one & see what you think Miguel, they don't cost too much & you could always sell it on if you are not impressed.

They are likely to work best on cheaper players .
P.S.
Jeff C likes some of the mats from Herbies Audio.

[Nigel]

Well, my CD player cost £50 so can't argue with that. Come to think of it the mat nearly cost as much.

[robertkd]

The SPDIF data once recoverd is (in the ideal case) EXACTLY the same data as on the CD.

bullshit!

Question
how is/does the "matt" work??

[Deleted]

Quote: The SPDIF data once recoverd is (in the ideal case) EXACTLY the same data as on the CD.

bullshit!

Anatech virtually said that in his reply to Sy.

[Nigel]

Robert,

From the SID website,

All CDs are see through no matter if they are coloured or not. One only needs to take a small torch and hold it against the silver side of a CD to see that the light is visable through the disc. It is also possible to move the CD up to 1,3mm away from the laser. Being as the CD is only 1,2mm thick it shows that it is possible for the laser to actually see right through the CD. With this in mind the correction system reacts to the varying reflections it sees from the label thus giving the system more work to do than is necessary. With this in mind the sound will be very much smoother as it has hardly any interruptions induced by false information from the correction system.

The SID disc has a special matt finish on one side and this side is placed to the CD label so that the stray laser light is absorbed , the green colour changing the red light of the laser into black thus neutralising it.

[Nigel]

And from the Ringmat website.......

STATMAT is the brainchild of sound consultant John Rogers. He says: "CDs revolve at high speed in a dry, closed environment with relatively high temperatures. This causes a build-up of electrostatic fields which can distort the phase of the signal from the CD to the speakers. Such phase anomalies result in a degradation of the sound quality. STATMAT addresses this problem by evening out the low-voltage 'hot spots', ensuring that the reproduction is as true as possible to the original recording. " STATMAT is coated with a unique pattern of specially formulated conductive inks which level out the electrostatic fields around the CD, ensuring that the signal recreated by the digital circuitry is phase-correct before it is sent to the speakers. Therefore, as the signal suffers no phase distortion, the resultant sound is more vibrant, with an improved sense of timing and rhythm, clearer intonation and enhanced imaging.

[rickcr42]

Wasn't there talk of using old floppy discs, removed from their covers, on top CDs for this?

"I think this will have to conclude this round of the freakzoid Tweekaloid, no doubt I’ll be back soon, as I have more tweaks around and to mention that work well and don’t break the bank. Just before I go though a quick link to a French web-page that shows another no/low cost tweak that I use daily and find it to work great. Even if you don’t speak French, the pictures tell the story:"

high.end.online.fr/diy/cdflop.html

thorsten Loesch (man knows his shit) from here

www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm

[Nigel]

Some good reading on the second link there Rick.

<What the DA did do was to make CD sound much more analogue, >

[Deleted]

They also say that it depends on how much of the writing can be seen through the CD when you have a look with light coming from say, the window......

Ian
It's bloody disgusting that they have degraded the quality of many of the CDs so much that you can do this. With earlier CDs you could not see through the reflective layer at it was thicker. The only time you could do this was with some earlier CDs where the printing ink formulation used ate into the reflective layer leaving pinholes.
Alex

[Deleted]

Feb 1, 2010 21:37:25 GMT @sandyk said:

They also say that it depends on how much of the writing can be seen through the CD when you have a look with light coming from say, the window......

Ian
It's bloody disgusting that they have degraded the quality of many of the CDs so much that you can do this. With earlier CDs you could not see through the reflective layer at it was thicker. The only time you could do this was with some earlier CDs where the printing ink formulation used ate into the reflective layer leaving pinholes.
Alex

LP's went the same route unfortunately. Thin, crappy pressings that warped.

Only thing with CD's is that at the speed they go round at, the extra weight would make them more stable I suppose. Some of them are drastically see through though.

The SID devices are amazingly thin as well. Just sits on top of the CD.

Ian

[rickcr42]

LP's went the same route unfortunately. Thin, crappy pressings that warped.

so thin towards the end you had to support both ends

[XTRProf]

Feb 2, 2010 4:19:12 GMT rickcr42 said:

LP's went the same route unfortunately. Thin, crappy pressings that warped.

so thin towards the end you had to support both ends

I just love those 180 to 200 gramers, when done properly, will not warp! No wonder those oldie records at that gram range are some of the best that we can have without having to pay thru our pants. Err, I don't mean the collectables, btw.

[robertkd]

Nigel,

Yes I wonder how much light is reflected from boundary of the "label"and if placing something over the disc actually contributes to or reduces the optical signal to noise level. The other consideration is that the difference in height between the lands and pits on a CD (or DVD) is a 1/4 wavelength thus the total optical path difference is 1/2 wavelength which corresponds to a 180 degree phase shift thus cancelling out the the light landing in the optical receiver.

If you wanted to check the operation of the optical receiver and demodulator you could observe the height of the centre of the eye pattern with an oscilloscope, this test would also show any differences made by adding such add ons. keep in mind the optical power and focus is varied to achieve the desired system signal to noise by the micro controller system.

As for the electro static fields, lets just say polycarbonate is an insulator so yes it may attain a static charge, but what effect would said charge have on the system is another matter, the rest is a leap of faith without reading the rest of the literature on the site, what's not clear is what changes the phase and whilst where at it the phase of what attribute within the system and why doesn't this translate to changing the attributes of a picture on a DVD

my thoughts anyway