Turntable supports

[Nigel]

Well, it goes without saying how beneficial a good shelf or table can be when supporting your turntable of choice but what are you guys using? I use an equipment wall shelf myself. Making damn sure the platter is level in the process.

[Deleted]

In the olden BM (Before Marraige) days, I used a Mana Soundframe under my Roksan Xerxes.

Now I use my own "cone thingies" under the Manticore.

[pjc68]

I have 3 oak cones under my tt, sounds more stable (thats why
camera tripods have 3 legs, more stable).
Glass metal rubber are a no no.
paddy

[pjc68]

Nigel
There is a woodyard off the dock rd in bootle that sells oak
cut to your requirements, sorry i cant remember the name of
the firm, i bought some about 8 yrs ago and still havent got round
to doing it myself. ;D
paddy

[clausdk]

Jan 29, 2010 22:41:06 GMT pjc68 said:

I have 3 oak cones under my tt, sounds more stable (thats why
camera tripods have 3 legs, more stable).
Glass metal rubber are a no no.
paddy

Really not, have you ever tried setting up a four legged table on a field, it will always be tilting, a tripod won't. but it will not be level either.

If things were more stable on three legs, animals would have three legs instead of four, also tables and chairs would have 3 legs.

[Spirit]

Jan 29, 2010 22:55:49 GMT @clausdk said:

It will always be tilting, a tripod won't. but it will not be level either.

My tripods are always level! I'm a surveyor

[Nigel]

I have three large Michell tenderfeet cones pointing down, be interesting to try oak though. I have four Isonoe feet,

www.isonoe.com/

They fit straight into the Technics, no trouble getting the platter level.

I have my CD player on another wall shelf & have made the area by the transport mech dead level, doubt if it makes too much difference but it can't do any harm.

[guadixman]

If you have wooden floors without supporting sleeper walls then it really is nec. to use a wall bracket, or even if you do.

Thing is you need to be careful where you site the bracket. Never close to a door opening and closing. In an old house close to a chimney breast is the best place because there will be a mass of brickwork that most floorborne vibration will not be able to enter, a simple question of mass.

Do take a look at what kind of feet your deck has. Most if not all TTs from the 70s had sorbethane type feet and or plasticky adjustable ones - these are really bad news and should be removed.

The Technics are prime examples. I used to use those sorbethane type pads for CDP as well, they do not deflect energy they only diffuse it and that leads to blurring, not desirable at all.

I use a resin storage rack with a slab of sleet and then slate feet supporting the actual TT - this works fine. If it were not for a very possible cost if I make holes in the rented apartment walls I would use a TT specific wall rack with the slate.

Look for Target or Rega and there is another small British company whose name I have forgotten that sell LPs and a total rewire system for Rega arms. This is very good as there is a shelf underneath that will take a phonostage as well, damned if I can remember their name.

Russ Andrews will sell you a Torlyte table and make a very, very good profit on the deal.

[pjc68]

claudsk
A triangle is the best formation for hifi support even if it.s not
level, it,s a very complicated subject that involves vector forces
and micro rocking, so i wont go on.
As for materials , glass and metal ring (thats why bells are made
of metal), try spinning a coin on a glass table and you will hear
that the noise is in yer face and offensive to the ear.
rubber stores energy and smears timing and pushes the balance
out (in yer face), newton proved energy could not be created or
destroyed so if you use rubber feet where does the energy go?'
it goes back into the system.
Here is a link for anyone interested.
dont be put off by the person who,s site it is
www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&article_id=ttintro&customer
paddy

[clausdk]

Jan 30, 2010 20:38:14 GMT pjc68 said:

claudsk
A triangle is the best formation for hifi support even if it.s not
level, it,s a very complicated subject that involves vector forces
and micro rocking, so i wont go on.
As for materials , glass and metal ring (thats why bells are made
of metal), try spinning a coin on a glass table and you will hear
that the noise is in yer face and offensive to the ear.
rubber stores energy and smears timing and pushes the balance
out (in yer face), newton proved energy could not be created or
destroyed so if you use rubber feet where does the energy go?'
it goes back into the system.
Here is a link for anyone interested.
dont be put off by the person who,s site it is
www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&article_id=ttintro&customer
paddy

If three feets were better sounding than 4, why does all gear have 4 ??
I know a triangle is very strong and rigid, but we are not talking a triangle here, we are talking about three feets not joined sides so it is a triangle.

if three feets were better, it would be because it has 1/4 less contact with the "ground" which I do not deny I am not were much into TT.

I was just put of about the stability of something with three feets..

Regarding the rubberfeets, it does not absorb the energy it transforms it into heat, so it does not have to go back into the system or rather not as kinetic enery, but thermic.
(Only commented this because it was in your reply to me)

[Deleted]

There is another huge advantage to three feet, you only need to adjust one to make the supported item perfectly level.

Spirit, your theodolite!

I've read somewhere (if I remember where I'll post a link/quote with the whys and wherefores) that a three footed support for a suspended deck, using a three suspension pointed sub chassis, is counter productive.

[pjc68]

Clausdk
The reason equipment has 4 feet is that it wont get knocked over,
if you put 2 cones at the front and 1 at the back, then that is like
a triangle, for sound quality 3 oak cone feet are better, if you have
young children running around or your hifi is in a position to get
knocked then 4 feet would be better.
As for rubber turning vibration into heat, i imagine it would be
impossible to measure how much heat is generated, plus there will
still be about 90% vibration left to go back into the hifi, so if heat
was generated how come you cant smell burning rubber from the
feet.
Years ago a uk hifi magazine said that a good tweak would be to
put squash balls cut in half under your hifi components, like a mug
i went out and done this, spent around £10 for squash balls, cut
them in half and put them under my arcam amp, power amp and cd player and all i got was booooomy in your face sound.
regards
paddy

[Nigel]

Rega's have three feet.

[XTRProf]

Hi clausdk and pjc68,

Good logical counterpoints from you guys. However, let me provide my 0 cent worth to the counterpoints that you had mentioned.

Jan 29, 2010 22:55:49 GMT @clausdk said:

Jan 29, 2010 22:41:06 GMT pjc68 said:

I have 3 oak cones under my tt, sounds more stable (thats why
camera tripods have 3 legs, more stable).
Glass metal rubber are a no no.
paddy

Really not, have you ever tried setting up a four legged table on a field, it will always be tilting, a tripod won't. but it will not be level either.

If things were more stable on three legs, animals would have three legs instead of four, also tables and chairs would have 3 legs.

If we are talking of stability from a standpoint of kinetic equilibrium, yes, the more supporting points, the more stable the structure will be. Just like a car, which is always 4 wheels will be more kinetically stable than a 3 wheels car of the same weight. However, in the TT issue we are talking of stability from a standpoint of static equilibrium. In other words, whether which structure rocks less or none at all. So within this framework, the 3 legged tripod is actually more stable than anything more than 3 supports.

Feb 2, 2010 9:45:43 GMT pjc68 said:

Clausdk
The reason equipment has 4 feet is that it wont get knocked over,
if you put 2 cones at the front and 1 at the back, then that is like
a triangle, for sound quality 3 oak cone feet are better, if you have
young children running around or your hifi is in a position to get
knocked then 4 feet would be better.
As for rubber turning vibration into heat, i imagine it would be
impossible to measure how much heat is generated, plus there will
still be about 90% vibration left to go back into the hifi, so if heat
was generated how come you cant smell burning rubber from the
feet.
Years ago a uk hifi magazine said that a good tweak would be to
put squash balls cut in half under your hifi components, like a mug
i went out and done this, spent around £10 for squash balls, cut
them in half and put them under my arcam amp, power amp and cd player and all i got was booooomy in your face sound.
regards
paddy

Actually, whether 3 or 4 feet, things will still get knock over when the CG is high when kids are around. A high CG 4 legged stuff will get more easily knocked over than a low CG 3 legged stuff. That's why F1 cars are almost touching the ground and have maximum cockpit height around knee level although we are more interested in kinetic stability rather than static. The low CG model applies to any legged stuff in kinetic or static.

As to why we don't smell burning rubber is because at TT level of transmission energy absorption, the rubber melting point is not met yet. How can that be, right, when the safety margin is so high here for the rubber compared to the energy involved. So the energy does get transmitted to heat depending on how soft and dense the rubber is (damping). The softer and less dense the rubber, the more the transmitted energy will be converted to heat. Density comes into play as mechanical impedance comes into play as well. The more different the mechanical impedances are of the 2 surfaces at the interface, the lesser the energy will be transmitted thru an interface and the more the energy will be converted into heat. One form of energy just cannot disappear into thin air just like that according to physics.

For a thing like hifi, there is just no right or wrong to the subject. A boomy effect may just be the solution to a setup having a too bright a character. The same applies vice versa. So we cannot say that a thing that doesn't work for you will not work for others. Just like a Fender strat with a HSS compared with the same strat with a SSS combination. The rock guitarist will love the HSS more than SSS of the same guitar. Btw, I'm not a Santana or Joe Satraini but just giving an analogy of the limited knowledge I know of the guitar subject in the context of the said.

I rest my case here.

[clausdk]

Learning all the time.
I can see the point that the tripod needs more force to be rocked than 4 legs.
But agaiin we are talking about a tripod with long legs and the weigth concentrated on the top i a small area, where the legs meet. Like a pyramid

If a tripod was fittet with a triangular board that were straith, in essence a three legged table would that also be more stable ?? Because that is what we are talking about..

Also the plate that gets three feets has to be made for three feets, balance and such..

All energy is turned into heat eventually, that is how the univers works, keep in mind we are not talking about scorching heat, a TT is not a vibrator, so it would be in the very low temperatures like ½ a degree or so (just guessing it would take hours and days to get the exatc numbers), just try touching the tires at your car they are also getting hot, but does not smell like burnt rubber or sometimes they do, but that is when we play.

I do recognice that you are getting better sound from the cones and that the rubber feets are boomy, no doubt in my mind there.

I just want to get behind all the woodoo and find the (maybe) real reason why and lees contact and more weigth on each foot is a very logical reason, where the stablity thing is a thing grasped out of the air, so to speak..

The sqaush balls has a big contact point with both the ground and the TT, so no wonder it sounds strange, there is however differnt squashballs from yellow to red, yellow being the most dead one and the red bounches way more, the blue are AFIK in the middle of the other two..

[rowuk]

Resonance is actually our friend, it just needs to be in the right places.

If we are talking about a turntable, anything that moves or stores energy robs the cartridge of ultimate stability that it needs to produce an electrical signal that is analog to the groove. That means for me, that one of my turntables feet (and only one) will ALWAYS be pointed so that there is only one path for the mechanical ground. Most of the time that one is near to the tonearm mounting point.

3 feet are just fine and do simplify the balancing act. Animals have 4 feet because when they are moving, at least one is in the air.................

The best recipe for turntable supports is to optimize the mechanical ground. That couples the weight of the building to the TT making it less susceptible to many other resonant evils.

If you have a problem with unstable floors/walls, switch to CD or make something VERY heavy (>100KG). Do not try and absorb energy - immobilize everything except the platter, arm pivot and stylus/cantilever.

[Deleted]

Glass shelf for me.