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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 14:36:41 GMT
Believe it or not I can tell how an amp will sound just by looking at the graphs and figures.  Oh ye of little faith!! "If I can't hear it, see it or understand it it can't exist"  . I for one believe that Frans doesn't make unjustified claims, no matter how difficult it may be for others to believe. Just my two penn'orth  . Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 14:48:24 GMT
"Believe it or not I can tell how an amp will sound just by looking at the graphs and figures"
I was referring to this amp as it has clear signs of 'tube amp' !
The fact that is a triode voltage amplifier stage with a too low anode voltage without any feedback already says it all.
The horendous crosstalk is caused by the common filament together with the LM317's of both channels which is NOT in it's proper operation below a certain voltage.
The fix is this: you use another tube with split filaments and give both channels their own filament.
The board has to be modified (or a G3 board made), other tubes used.
the freq range/distortion will be the same and thus the sound signature(I know I am not believed but don't care TBH).
It will be a LOT cleaner in crescendo's.
If you want a little bit of crosstalk that's linear just insert 2 resistors from left to right and the crosstalk is back again but linear.
I would prefer crossfeed instead.
the rolled of freq tells me how this amp souds.
Also the amount of 2nd/3rd order harmonics is a clear tell tale.
Of course Alex is right.
When the graph is straight from 10 Hz to 30kHz (-0.5 dB) and THD is low I can't tell the difference anymore... also not with my ears
So I can tell how these amps sound ... GOOD ! as it should
Any notable differences between 'normal' amps can ONLY be measured with the Mike's bullshit detector.
This is just a personal note and can get shot for this on a forum like this.
Just wait a few weeks with shooting till I am done with Ian's amp and he had a listen to it as my ears can't be trusted... they must be full of bulls..t
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 27, 2010 15:23:27 GMT
Oh ye of little faith!! "If I can't hear it, see it or understand it it can't exist" . I for one believe that Frans doesn't make unjustified claims, no matter how difficult it may be for others to believe. Just my two penn'orth . Dave Don't be so daft Dave.... someone tells you they know what an amp sounds like without listening to it and you believe them?..... utter balderdash of the highest order. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 15:40:16 GMT
Just wait a few weeks with shooting till I am done with Ian's amp and he had a listen to it as my ears can't be trusted... they must be full of bulls..t KEEP AWAY FROM THE SCREEN FRANS   Seriously though, the proof will be in the pudding, as you say. I'm certainly very curious as to the outcome of your work. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 16:08:51 GMT
No Pressure then?  Ian |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 17:35:01 GMT
Oh ye of little faith!! "If I can't hear it, see it or understand it it can't exist" . I for one believe that Frans doesn't make unjustified claims, no matter how difficult it may be for others to believe. Just my two penn'orth . Dave Don't be so daft Dave.... someone tells you they know what an amp sounds like without listening to it and you believe them?..... utter balderdash of the highest order. My money's on Frans irrespective of how daft others think me. This opinion is not based on my audio knowledge (ain't got none, before others say it ), but on my views of Frans as a person - not given to making outlandish claims without some justification, IMHO. We shall see - go Frans go!! Dave. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 18:01:11 GMT
What is this - a friggin' boxing ring?
Does it really matter? Who cares whether I can hear some kind of magic difference or whether Frans can see it.
It gets very tiring watching this bear baiting. Not just here but also on the American thread where Miguel felt basically insulted because he's American. I thought that was pretty poor reading too.
Jeez .... it's a friggin' £40 cheap amp with a tube in it.
I thought we were all on the same side here. We like to mess around with kit and see what we get out of it, but the Bravo/Indeed stuff seems to be a boxing ring.
Do you really think that after Frans modifies something, I can really comment in a thread that seems to take a nasty turn after a statement.
I would rather like to think that Frans also listens with his ears in the end, but maybe he's trying to say that he relies on measurements as a first call because he doesn't trust his ears entirely. He's said that his mood at the time makes him hear differently and that he has an aural memory of three seconds.
That makes sense to me but I really think in the end, he'd be listening. (At least I hope so - that's Mike's point!!) Does anyone actually think Frans will send the amp to me without having a quick shifty himself? I BET he listens to it out of curiosity and it's just plain daft to think he's going to do everything from a book and send it away. Really?
It's a shame that this stuff becomes so hot headed. Anyone noticed that Peter's gone? Anyone wonder why? It would be nice to hear the 'maker' (if he is actually the maker of the amp and not just a distributor) comment on these weird things, but we seem to get into arguments about the way we listen.
It's been established that it's on the hissy side at the top end of the volume and it has perhaps too much gain. It's susceptible to receiving electrical noise. The cap on mine seemed to be playing up on switch on, perhaps because it's too low value. Crosstalk is very poor. It's rolled off at the top.
However, a lot of us enjoy the sound, which has attracted Frans' interest.
I've offered my amp to be experimented on and Frans is going ahead depending on what he finds.
I can't see the problem.
Maybe it would be better to start a new thread called Frans mods on Bravo and then if we can all talk about the merits of the amps here and the mods can be discussed elsewhere so no-one gets offended.
I'm trying very hard not to take sides; especially after the last lot of nonsense about 'the cool measurers' V 'the hot listeners' but it's all starting up again over a poxy, cheap low budget amp.
There is no need for this baiting. I say daft things and so do other people, but we need to step back a bit and see what comes of it.
I didn't realise that I would be getting into a boxing match over something so trivial but I must admit, I have absolutely second thoughts about saying anything about the amp afterwards (except by PM to Frans) since the whole idea seems so objectionable.
I'm ranting again ... sorry. But I do find it a bit unbelievable. There seem to be other agendas appearing here.
The last time this agenda appeared, I said exactly what I felt at the time resulting in a member getting a bit upset. I think that the attitude I was talking about has become more tempered as a result of my reply but it's got to be both ways for anything useful or interesting to be happening with the amp.
My money is on a better amp appearing from experimenting and we're all winners. The combination of measurements and ears is the best way ahead.
Maybe I'm just a delicate soul, but it upsets me to see it.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 18:28:32 GMT
Hi Ian, Please chillax . In no way do I see this as a boxing match - I can't speak for Mike but I didn't take his calling me 'daft' as antagonistic. As far as I am concerned it's just a light hearted difference of opinion. If I'm proved wrong my affection and respect for neither Frans or Mike will be in any way diminished. If Frans says something I believe he says it because he believes it and not to be provocative. Surely measurements can tell you something about the performance of any equipment, otherwise why measure? If Frans feels that looking at measurements can and does give him an indication of how the equipment will perform, who am I to argue with him? What purpose do measurements serve if not to provide some such indication? Frans has obviously studied thousands of measurements and compared them with hundreds of sounds. If he says he can recognise trends or patterns in these studies he believes it. At the end of the day, SQ is in the ear of the listener and I don't think anything Frans says cuts across that. I await the results with interest. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 18:46:12 GMT
Hi Ian, Please chillax . In no way do I see this as a boxing match - I can't speak for Mike but I didn't take his calling me 'daft' as antagonistic. As far as I am concerned it's just a light hearted difference of opinion. If I'm proved wrong my affection and respect for neither Frans or Mike will be in any way diminished. If Frans says something I believe he says it because he believes it and not to be provocative. Surely measurements can tell you something about the performance of any equipment, otherwise why measure? If Frans feels that looking at measurements can and does give him an indication of how the equipment will perform, who am I to argue with him? What purpose do measurements serve if not to provide some such indication? Frans has obviously studied thousands of measurements and compared them with hundreds of sounds. If he says he can recognise trends or patterns in these studies he believes it. At the end of the day, SQ is in the ear of the listener and I don't think anything Frans says cuts across that. I await the results with interest. Dave Me too Dave. I'm very interested in how it changes and I have amps to compare it directly with. I think Frans is interested in that too. It just gets to me because the most common question I am asked is why my bands split up, or what did you do? Are you going to get back together? You must have been mad!! I've heard it all before.  The answer is exactly here in these threads. Pride. I don't like to see RG do the same thing over a poxy £40/£35 amp!! It's just that once people start getting all touchy, then you have to start being very careful what you say 'cos someone will react to it so ........... POOF ........ there goes free speech on the site. It's OK. I'm perfectly chilled. I just don't like to see repeat performances in any field. Ian |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 19:20:30 GMT
Thanks for the support.
At this moment the amp is at my work where I do not have a decent HP so cannot/will not listen.
I took measurements to see where it can be improved and what needs improving and what doesn't need to be altered.
Since Ian likes the sound of it I do want to keep that intact and only improve it on the parts that he didn't like.
It IS a cheap amp that happens to sound good for reasons that are known to me.
Things don't HAVE to measure good in order to sound good.
There also amps that measure poorly and sound bad too.
These will SURELY measure very different.
Mike has his knowledge, I have mine.
They differ ... that's it.
He improves things his way I do it my way.
doesn't make him stupid nor me ignorant or whatever he decides to call me.
My remarks ARE based on my not trivial experience.
You BET I will listen to it when it is ready and before I send it of.
There is NO reason for me to hear it before I start modding.
I have seen and measured it and know what to do because of these measurements.
An optician doesn't have to look through someones glasses to see if it is the right one for his client...
It's Ian's amp and because I like the guy and noticed he had some troubles with it and had more of them and seems to have a set of good realistic ears and a musical wired brain I decided help him out.
NOT to create discussions... just a friendly gesture and if my mods work out for Ian I will publish my mods and everyone is free to do with that info what he likes.
Frans
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 27, 2010 19:36:28 GMT
Frans, I just cannot believe you will not be listening to the amp BEFORE you mod it? Your arrogance is unbelievable, you keep going on about your bloomin' measurements but haven't once commented on the sound of the amp apart from the "I know what it sounds like without having to listen to it" type nonsense.
A lot of members here think the amp sounds nice.... It would be nice to learn what your "ears" think of this amp before you go to work totally redesigning it.
Mike.
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robertkd
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Post by robertkd on Mar 27, 2010 19:43:12 GMT
Frans, I just cannot believe you will not be listening to the amp BEFORE you mod it? Your arrogance is unbelievable, you keep going on about your bloomin' measurements but haven't once commented on the sound of the amp apart from the "I know what it sounds like without having to listen to it" type nonsense. A lot of members here think the amp sounds nice.... It would be nice to learn what your "ears" think of this amp before you go to work totally redesigning it. Mike. awe Mike that's funny  ;D |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 27, 2010 19:50:40 GMT
My money's on Frans irrespective of how daft others think me. Your "money" is on Frans?  As Ian quite righly says.... this is NOT a boxing match.... you stupid man! You are suggesting I make outlandish claims? I'd like to think I sometimes "provoke" discussion but wouldn never, knowingly, lead anybody down the garden path when it comes to audio.... I raved about these amps because I felt (and still do) that they are amazing value for money and are very musical.... if that comes across as "outlandish" to you then I want to know why? I'm sorry I actually LISTEN to gear and try to share my listening experiences with others and don't sit here quoting measurements and figures from the comfort of my computer terminal. I don't give a flying fig WHAT the measurements are (unless they suggest the amp is UNSAFE to use, then I am concerned) sure, they are interesting but this is a £40 amp which sounds very nice for the money. Let's just not get too carried away with figures is all I am saying. It annoys me that Frans has had this amp for a while and hasn't even listened to it yet but has had the time to write a fekkin' BOOK on the measurements! ;D  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 19:54:32 GMT
Hi Mike, PLEASE NOTE My post below was posted BEFORE I saw your latest post, otherwise I would not have posted it - it does seem to be going down the wrong path. I was NOT inferring that you were making outlandish statements, I was just saying that I did not think Frans was. The last person that I would want to upset on this forum is you. It's your forum to do (and sound off) as you like but do take a chill pill. Look at it this way: Ian is generally acknowledged to have a good pair of ears (I'm not talking about the size or the shape ;D but the acuity). He has posted what he thinks is wrong with it, Frans has measured it and correlated his findings with Ian's findings. Frans is not trying to 'correct' what he thinks is wrong with it but what Ian thinks is wrong with it. He therefore believes that he doesn't need to hear it himself. Based on the measurements and what Ian wants tweaking Frans believes he knows what needs to be done and those self same ears will be the final arbiter on whether Frans has achieved Ian's requirements. That's my 'take' on it anyway. My money is still on Frans but I wouldn't put my mortgage on it, if I had one . Dave. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 19:58:14 GMT
arrogance ?
You mean experience ?
Like I said... you do things your way.. I do it my way.
People that do know me personally and my work would not describe me as arrogant.
You are free to call me anything you like... it's your Grotto.
Loosen up a bit and let me help out people the way I see fit and you help people out the best way you can .. and one thing I know for sure too Mike and that is that your grotto is about helping people out too and your always very generous at it too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 19:59:03 GMT
My money's on Frans irrespective of how daft others think me. That's TWO Dave. Third time is a knock out!! I agree. It is odd, but each to his own. I don't rehearse music. I read it and hear it in my head before ever hearing it. Maybe that's the correlation? ;D Funny that you two work the opposite way around. Mike, you listen primarily and also measure (although you do keep that quiet) while Frans measures and then listens. I find that curious, like yourself Mike but then perhaps it's us!!!! Have you ever seen the film 'The Burbs'. Tom Hanks at one point starts to announce that maybe the neighbours aren't mad, they themselves are ......... Ian |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:01:06 GMT
Frans does things his own way, end of. Mike does things his own way, end of. If we get a better sounding Amp which ever way, great, so what`s the arguing about. Its Ian`s Amp if he is happy with the end result, that`s fine, and if he`s not, at least frans has done it his way, and had a go, nothing lost as Ian`s knows that the mods carried out might not suit him anyway.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:03:32 GMT
Plus the fact I have a family of them .....
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:07:42 GMT
Ian,
That's a funny story about the music.
I once was asked by my boss why the hell I never drew up specs or even a block schematic whenever electronics were designed.
I said: I just KNOW what to build and how and 'see' the whole schematics immediately in my head and put them on paper.
They still make jokes about me 'seeing' things whenever a new design is to be made.
That's probably what I like about you.
What you do in music I do in electronics and my affinity happens to lie in audio too.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 27, 2010 20:07:47 GMT
I believe Ian wanted a bit more travel on the pot and was having problems with radio frequency interference.... I can't remember him saying he had a major problem with the "sound quality"..... I may be wrong? It's not "my" forum mate.... it's "our" forum.... Sure, I started the place as I had a love of all things audio and sat here, all on my own for a few months, waiting for people to join up... It was "my" forum back then when it was mostly "me" on it but now there are all of you guys and I consider it "our" forum. People who know me will realise a lot of my stuff is tongue in cheek / read between the lines type material and I welcome ALL opinions and ideas, however diverse / perverse they may seem.... hell, we've put up with MERTON for 5 years You obviously haven't read some of my "earlier" in-depth ramblings on here and Head-Fi.... I promise I'll raise my posting style up a notch or two in the coming weeks just to please you Dave  As you were folks..... DING DONG! Round three......... |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 27, 2010 20:17:24 GMT
What I try to do is share simple "tweaks" that ANYBODY can do.... This particular amp is now being hailed as a potential "G3".... it's a total reworking of the design and beyond most people's capabilities.... It's now going to have "two" valves so has already lost the "eye candy".... god know where Frans is gonna house the second valve.... this is not tweaking the amp "AS IS".... this is adding a block of flats onto the side of a bungalow.
It is VERY interesting to me and I hope it WILL perform better, it should do as it will be a totally different amp.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:20:52 GMT
Actually Mike, your posts do crack me up. You also have a scary type of affinity with people. You often say things that I'm thinking before I've said it. (Although it's never about anything technical like amps etc 'cos I can't do that. I need a diagram)
This particular amp is now being hailed as a potential "G3"
Not yet, it ain't!! It's going to be called a 'Dudy Soldered It' MK1
If you both worked on it, we could mark it, 'Made in Hotchland' That'll stop the Chinese market.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:25:18 GMT
Hi Mike, Thanks for that. I came back now just to post that I would withdraw from this thread as I seemed to be provoking an unwanted reaction from you - I do not enjoy being called a "stupid man" by someone with whom I only have the slightest acquaintance, even when it is accompanied by a smilie, but, seeing your last post (no. 569), I am a bit more relaxed about it. I must warn you now that, given the correct atmosphere and set of circumstances I also have been known to make provocative, tongue in cheek, statements just to get a reaction, so please remember that if and when the boot is on the other foot. ;D Kind Regards , Dave. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:36:42 GMT
Hi Mike, Not 2 tubes.. just 1 different tube and some PCB traces will be redirected to suit this other tube. and the blue LED will be out as Ian requested. I will NOT touch the sound of it as Ian likes the sound regardless what I think of the specs of it. Everything I do to it has been discussed with Ian in several PM's. It will never be a G3 nor is it intended to become one. IF Ian likes the end result I publish what I did to it and everybody is FREE to do with this info what they like. Then You may improve it further the way you think it could be improved even more if you like. Dave is entitled to have his own opinions as am I and Mike and everybody else on this forum is too. It would be nice if EVERYONE does so in a friendly way.. I like to quote someone now.. PEACE MaN ! This thread is just as heated as the FET's and LM317's unlike the filaments on 5.1 Volts |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2010 20:40:27 GMT
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. I for one believe that Frans doesn't make unjustified claims, no matter how difficult it may be for others to believe.
.
;D
As Ian quite righly says.... this is NOT a boxing match.... you stupid man! 
