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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:11:42 GMT
That is the penalty you pay for using valves, with their much poorer signal to noise ratio than a good solidstate design, in a very basic design without negative feedback.. Alex Alex, get an Earmax and then say that. However, there's a slight difference in cost in this case but I'm not telling the wife!!  Ian |
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leo
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Post by leo on Feb 2, 2010 22:14:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:22:14 GMT
I've been playing around with the K701's on it. Drives it as if it wasn't there. However, crank it (and take headphones away from ears because we're talking rock concert level) and it runs out of steam at about 12 o clock. Sound compresses and it looses clarity so the volume is way too high. The 12 o clock position needs to be nearer to full volume because half of the travel supplies nothing but compression and distortion.
Quite nice with the 701 too.
Ian
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 2, 2010 22:28:58 GMT
It's prone to noise so I'll have to get the collander out and stick it in a cage. It picks up hums and buzzes from the air. Volume pot does nothing to alleviate this, you just have to move the amp somewhere else. Big problem for me Ian..... I live in a totally noise free area (the most northerly point in the UK) so mains is VERY clean and RFI almost non existant...... sooooo..... what is totally "silent" to "me" may be a mini cab transmission to you  I am lucky to have such a noise pollution free listening zone but it worries me that my recommendations / observations may not be the same for someone living in the middle of Birmingham. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:30:49 GMT
Ian
I was just stating the obvious. 30dB of gain is greatly excessive and must result in a very abrupt volume control action as well as audible hiss when using a valve. Just remember that the maximum output voltage from a typical CD player is already approximately 2V RMS, and only needs about 6dB gain for maximum useable volume with many headphones. Some far less sensitive headphones may however require a gain of up to 15dB or thereabouts. I expect that Mike will find a way to reduce the gain, just as we did with the V2, and this amplifier will then be better than ever.
Alex
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 2, 2010 22:34:11 GMT
Nice link, Leo. I have most of the bits, just need the fet's and one of those glass tube thingies. Never done valvey stuff, so this could be a bit interesting. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:36:23 GMT
Butting in ... again (when do I learn) The amps are the same as in the schematic. It has been developed from earlier slightly different designs. The thought is nice ... minimalistic.. really like THAT on this design. On the 'Technical' side there is a lot of things quite badly designed on this amp (That is why the distortion is so high on low Ohmic cans) but if it sounds very nice ..... who cares.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:46:43 GMT
It's prone to noise so I'll have to get the collander out and stick it in a cage. It picks up hums and buzzes from the air. Volume pot does nothing to alleviate this, you just have to move the amp somewhere else. Big problem for me Ian..... I live in a totally noise free area (the most northerly point in the UK) so mains is VERY clean and RFI almost non existant...... sooooo..... what is totally "silent" to "me" may be a mini cab transmission to you I am lucky to have such a noise pollution free listening zone but it worries me that my recommendations / observations may not be the same for someone living in the middle of Birmingham. I wondered about the 'edge' of space up there Mike. It's not picking up dirty phone calls (yet) but it is sensitive to other power supplies being closish so it's easily detectable. I'll stick it under a collander. It just involves moving it a foot and it goes but it is prone to it as it is. It is a little beauty though. Looks great. Sounds good. It's just too powerful for it's own good and goes into clipping too early. When you think of it, what can you get for that sort of money that's close? It is a bargain imo. Interesting going from the Bravo to the Aune. That's another bargain. (Double the price though) The connections are a little worrying since when you plug anything in/out, there's nothing for them to be clinging to under the pressure. ie they're not bolted to any panelling. The post amazed me. Henry sent mine on 29th January and it arrived today. Took my Solo three weeks to get to Hong Kong. Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 2, 2010 22:50:20 GMT
The EH (Electro Harmonix) is current production. The best sounding valves are those that were constructed when the employees "knew what they were doing" ;D (when valves were everyday items)....... I was actually surprised when I heard the EH in this amp, a bloody good starting point. I have tried a few today and the Russian 6H23N and Philips 6922 blow the EH into the dust but I will need a few more weeks to compile a comprehensive list. I am lucky to have a huge armoury of 6922 at my disposal (over 2000 pieces) and, believe me, I'll try them all from my favoured 1965 Vintage 6H23N with chrome pins to JAN / Phillips 6922 to Seimens 6922 to amperex bugle boys to Tronix E88CC to Mullard E88CC to....... Fear not Ian.... I am on the case |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 22:53:40 GMT
Fear not Ian.... I am on the case I can smell the fear .......  Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 2, 2010 22:55:24 GMT
Straight from the horses mouth..... with respect to the "Indeed" amp....
"Hello,
Thankyou for your good comment on forum, we have carefully designed and think about the gain to boost in linear, there are many kind of headphones with different impendence, so the 20dB gain is most suitable for handing performance to drive the headphone in different impedence with a dynamic sound.
It is not easy to change a resister reduce the gain, a NFB net work is hard to install by DIY.
BTW our new model G2 (Generation 2) headphone amplifier will be coming very soon, it is not simple improve just like the imitating product, we have modify the circuit and let it sounds very close to high end level.
Thanks again
Regards
Peter"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 23:06:14 GMT
That didn`t take long, every Headphone and Headphone amp manufacturer must tune into this Forum, for honest and unbiased comments on there products, and how to improve them, something to be proud of Mike.
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leo
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Post by leo on Feb 2, 2010 23:07:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 23:09:37 GMT
Hi Mike, I've probably said this before but I'm a newbie numptie at this hi-fi 'illness' but seem to have caught a severe dose late in life  . I now want to experience the valve sound and the more I read this thread on the Bravo/Ideal amps the more convinced I am that this is the route I will go, but I'll wait until you and others have done your trials and comparisons and know the way you want to go with it. From what I currently understand it is likely that either or both will benefit from a valve roll. Do you expect to be able to offer better valves and possibly better other components if that is what are required? Just thinking ahead, that's all |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 2, 2010 23:17:24 GMT
That didn`t take long, every Headphone and Headphone amp manufacturer must tune into this Forum, for honest and unbiased comments on there products, and how to improve them, something to be proud of Mike. Jesus..... what monster have I created ;D
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Post by MaN227 on Feb 3, 2010 0:07:08 GMT
well , I have the IndeeD on the way. reading here about volume knob travel (or lack there of) my logitech pc speakers I normally have at no more that 9 o clock. My HeeD canamp normal between 9 and 10 o clock listening, 12 max. and the more I think about every piece of gear I've ever had with a volume knob is pretty much the same story. Maybe I'm crazy ( correction I AM crazy lol ) but why is it a concern how far around u turn the knob to your preferred listening level? simply its too sensitive? as in barely touch/move it and volume increase greatly? One thing I have noticed is its very hard to tell who is posting about which amp, (unless its mentioned in all posts made which amp it is ) assuming there are differences. i.e. the humm/hiss some mention have the bravo and the indeed no such issue brought up. just saying its gonna get very hard for those of us trying to learn and or decide on a purchase. Also many will assume they are indeed (pardon the pun  ) the same amp, and much confusion. Do what you will but I'd separate the indeed and bravo amp threads, before it gets too messy. Peace |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 3, 2010 0:09:48 GMT
Good point, it will happen Mike. |
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Post by MaN227 on Feb 3, 2010 3:12:47 GMT
right on man it may just be the only thing I can say I contributed here. feels sorta good ;D speaking of contribute. I have read many pages here , trying to soak of just a wee bit of the vast amount of knowledge shared here. how can I donate $$, at this point I feel I should. no not should, eFF that, I just want to, it'll make ME feel better. so PF lemme know man  Peace
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Spirit
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Post by Spirit on Feb 3, 2010 6:34:20 GMT
how can I donate $$, at this point I feel I should. no not should, eFF that, I just want to, it'll make ME feel better. so PF lemme know man Paypal button up the top left of the 'home' page of the forum... |
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Post by MaN227 on Feb 3, 2010 6:38:32 GMT
how can I donate $$, at this point I feel I should. no not should, eFF that, I just want to, it'll make ME feel better. so PF lemme know man Paypal button up the top left of the 'home' page of the forum... DOH ;D thanks man  |
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Post by oohms on Feb 3, 2010 6:46:39 GMT
From what i gather these are the only differences between the bravo and indeed designs: indeed 20db gain, bravo 30db gain ( ) indeed 2 amp psu, bravo 1 amp psu indeed have better resistors, capacitors, but a smaller power filter cap, bravo have sturdier rca and 3.5mm sockets There are several tube versions of the bravo (6n11, 6dj8, 12au7) but there only seems to be the 6dj8 version of the indeed. |
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Post by MaN227 on Feb 3, 2010 7:10:49 GMT
is this 6n11 a good tube? oohms? anyone .....
I had seen a piccy of this tube and thought it was 8N11 or GN11. lol guess my peepers aren't what they used to be
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2010 8:09:59 GMT
From what i gather these are the only differences between the bravo and indeed designs: indeed 20db gain, bravo 30db gain ( ) indeed 2 amp psu, bravo 1 amp psu indeed have better resistors, capacitors, but a smaller power filter cap, bravo have sturdier rca and 3.5mm sockets There are several tube versions of the bravo (6n11, 6dj8, 12au7) but there only seems to be the 6dj8 version of the indeed. Well, the Bravo runs out of steam if you really crank it. It has too much at the bottom of the volume pot. I'd like to change the power supply too. The 3.5 mm socket is a bit stiff and I'm a bit concerned that continual pushing and pulling of the plug will move both them and the rca's since the only way they stay there is via the board with no casing. I've also decided to pull the plug out and leave the power switch on since that looks a likely candidate in time. However, the sound is very pleasant with some punch. A better tube may improve the hiss too perhaps. (as well as the sound) It's a really good buy though, and I'm being nit picky. Ian |
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 3, 2010 20:40:13 GMT
The Bravo arrived today and, to be honest, pretty much identical to the Indeed in circuit layout apart from a few different components which I will detail in a minute..... The packaging wasn't as good as the Indeed packaging but, still, perfectly acceptable.... nothing was damaged in transit. The supplied PSU is a 1amp type, the Indeed amp comes with a larger 2 amp type (both 24V / both SMPS) The main differences? The Indeed employs a 2200uF power cap, the Bravo uses a 6800uF (so more juice on tap) The Indeed employs high quality precision Dale resistors, the Bravo uses standard metal film types. The Indeed is fitted with a nice smooth action headphone socket, the Bravo has a rather clunky el cheapo type. The indeed has ELNA and Nichicon caps fitted, the Bravo has one Rubycon (the 6800uF) and the other two are no name el cheapo types. The indeed's phono sockets are better quality than the Bravo's socket. Soooo..... Both have got their good and not so good points. The Bravo has gone all out with the 6800uF Rubycon cap and has saved on the head-socket, the resistors and the phono plugs. The Indeed has spread the parts budget a bit better across the board with Dale resistors, good quality caps, a nice head-socket and not too bad phono sockets. Both look the part but the Bravo is the more macho as it has an extra "hole" in the perspex so the huge 6800uF can poke it's head through and say "look at me!". Ian...... don't be worried about the phono sockets on the Bravo packing in, they may be el cheapo but are as solid as a rock and, unless you go at them with a hammer, they won't budge with normal in / outs.... they are actually more solidly anchored than the Indeed's phono sockets and being that the entire body is metal a lot more rugged in service..... the plating is not as good as the Indeed's sockets..... again, swings and roundabouts. Valve rolling in BOTH amps isn't going to be straightforward I'm afraid. Ideally the bias should be adjusted (the two 2k2 trimpots) and that's not something you can do (to precision) with a simple multimeter (think more along the lines of a signal generator and oscilloscope) obviously, more on this as the thread evolves....... Leo, I have taken a few close up snaps of the Bravo, how does it compare to the Sijosae you built? You'll be able to see from the photos the exact parts they have used..... your comments would be appreciated. On the subject of the photos please discount the Gold plated Neutrik head-socket and the Panasonic FC 1000uF caps, I removed the el cheapos and fitted these myself....... Anyways, here's a closer look:         |
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 3, 2010 21:02:59 GMT
They are a lovely phono socket, Mike. I've used them in my AK Class A and Buffalo DAC, and they really look and feel like a quality component. One thing that struck me about them is that they weigh quite a lot for what they are  Doesn't mean 'owt, but there you go! |
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I am lucky to have such a noise pollution free listening zone but it worries me that my recommendations / observations may not be the same for someone living in the middle of Birmingham.
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Doesn't mean 'owt, but there you go!