More Vinyl vs. CD,even a child will get this one

[XTRProf]

Jan 27, 2010 17:24:04 GMT @cjarchez said:

Valve Amp: Can we argued the professional guitarists, the same people who make music we hear, are wrong? All their amps are valves after painstakingly using the various amps and comparing them.

Just for the sake arguement...

The professional guitarists use valves to get the sound THEY WANT.
1) The listener is either doing the same
2) or increasing the effect further than the musician intended.

Ha, ha, that's exactly how I look at it as well. Professional musicians being musicians are very critical to sound and for that matter how to make good sounding music. You have been there and done that, right? Btw, aren't we talking of good sounding music in no matter what form factors we intend to put them in? Also, isn't music being music not matter what form factors the music is generated from as well? I just can't stand when hifi nuts just keep on insisting that only acoustic music (the purest and the with least distortion) is music. Electronic music is all pure BS as they have many distortions? Then, are we saying the electric guitar, banging on distortion generation, is not music? If that's that case, that will be the end of music as many listen to them now compared to "pure" classical guitar. Yes, the same dilemma we have of valve amps vs SS. Don't get me wrong. I love SS and class D as well but ..........

I'm not trying to say that analogue is god sent perfect sounding and digital I'm dogmatically shying away. Both have their inherent problems. However, thru' the analogue way, I can have some serious enjoyment or hallucination more remaniscent of the live musical events. So I totally agreed that the analogue way is "some form of tweaking" for your enjoyment. But isn't digital as well thru all those dsp?

Btw, those F1 drivers tweak their cars to win! Many a time, succesful tweaks are from inputs from the drivers themselves and not from measurements.

So everybody, let us enjoy the music in no matter what form factor. If analogue is for you, so be it and see their points just like the F1 drivers. If digital is for you, again so be it and see their points from the measurment brigade. But seriously, I see the best is still having a system from contributions from the subjective and objective measurement side as no matter what the subjective will always be there just like the F1 drivers. Sometimes, measurements cannot be counted on. Btw, how many trade stocks purely based on technical and fundamentals (measurements) without taking into consideration the herd instinct (subjective)? I will end by saying the next generation X-wing fighter is the most unstable technically and measurably but is being considered for the next phase for fighter aircraft development after some "tweaking".

Yeah, any recommendation for an electric acoustic guitar as I'm going more for real music now beyond hifi, be it analogue or digital, as hifi is still not the real sound of live music! PM me, to take this off line.

Danke ..........................

[XTRProf]

Jan 27, 2010 18:44:51 GMT Nigel said:

This forum has become anti vinyl.

As long as the contibutions are taken at face value from both sides, I don't see that point. Anyway, isn't forum about constructive diversity of views?

[robertkd]

You know it's funny but those "tube" amps are only for fold back if used and the main amplification is wait for it class D for big venues

[toad]

Jan 27, 2010 18:44:51 GMT Nigel said:

This forum has become anti vinyl.

I see it as the forum has become pro CD or, more correctly, pro digital. There are plenty of people here that still love their vinyl.

[Deleted]

It shouldn't matter at all if you prefer vinyl or CD and which players/amps/cans/speakers you use as long as YOU enjoy the sound of it and the music itself.

Arguably digital and solid state have a more true reproduction of the original recording no matter HOW you feel/think about it.
yes ... the frequency range/risetime discussion will be opened again I know.

HAVE you tried this experiment ( I bet you haven't but I did )
Play analog signals which you consider to be perfect recordings.
(analog master tapes or your finest vinyl)
Run them through your favo equipment and make 2 paths.
1 path direct, the other one through a steep filter on say ... 18 -20 kHz. (Hint: use the filters of 2nd/3rd generation CD players for instance)
Do BLIND A-B tests and see IF you can hear the difference.
(make sure the signal level differences between the two paths are within 0.1 dB)

Actually DO the same test that I actually performed over 10 years ago and post your results.
Don't bother me with assumptions, theories or 'explanations' and stories of hear tell but tell me ONLY the results of THIS test AFTER you have actually done them. ;D
Do it with other interested people around you so you can verify/debate your findings (I did).
Then tell me IF YOU were able to hear a difference or not.
I will NOT post the result here... you HAVE to experience it yourself.

DO use equipment that is capable to reproduce waaayyyy beyond 20kHz.

b.t.w. Tube sound is preferred by musicians because of the overdrive characteristics and the way their instrument sounds on that particular speaker ... really has nothing to do with HiFi tube amps and them being better just because musicians have preferences.

Large P.A. systems will use class-D or switched power-rail amplifiers AND STILL you and the musicians can hear their tube sound through this vastly inferior amplification system (and at home through your solid state equipment) why .. because reproduction of the original sound needs to be faithful.

But if you like it colored/altered/more pleasing whatever by adding extra distortion/compression or leaving things out please do so. Don't preach it is BETTER because YOU prefer/hear it .. just say that YOU personally prefer this sound signature.

So if you like vinyl and tubes ... go ahead ... enjoy.
If you like other combinations just enjoy this too.
It's all about enjoying music.

As said.. it is not a matter of Better or not .. it has to do with personal taste, preference and perception.

Damn... shouldn' t rant like this.
Long posts aren't read most of the time anyway..
so why bother...

[derekrumble]

Jan 30, 2010 9:16:08 GMT @solderdude said:

HAVE you tried this experiment ( I bet you haven't but I did )
Play analog signals which you consider to be perfect recordings.
(analog master tapes or your finest vinyl)
Run them through your favo equipment and make 2 paths.
1 path direct, the other one through a steep filter on say ... 18 -20 kHz. (Hint: use the filters of 2nd/3rd generation CD players for instance)
Do BLIND A-B tests and see IF you can hear the difference.
(make sure the signal level differences between the two paths are within 0.1 dB)
.
.
.
Damn... shouldn' t rant like this.
Long posts aren't read most of the time anyway..
so why bother...

I read it - a good read too.


I will take up your audio challenge but let me describe how I have done a similar thing already (no descriptions of my reactions yet - will need to do it porperly as you set out).

1. Good quality LP on turntable feeding into phono stage, then into M Audio audiophile 24/96 internal soundcard. (have also done the same with FM radio but that is seriously limited to c15kHz top end)


2. Monitor output from soundcard via aux in onthe amp - switch between this and direct phono input while listening on headphones and/or LS3/5a desk monitors.

3. Used a range of sampling rates for the ADC stage i.e. 44.1kHz, 48kHz and 96kHz.

I will do this again, but with a 44.1kHz sampling freq imposed. before publishing my obs and comments.

For the purposes of this test would the analgue output from a trusted SACD be an 'allowed' source? It is probably the closest I have to a top-flight analgue source. i.e. not band limited until way beyond 20kHz.

The whole test though will be limited by the qaulity of my M Audio sound card ADC - if that's crap then the it all falls over doesn't it?

Derek

[guadixman]

Mike,
I wonder if you had bought a top line Japanese DD in 84, would you have got rid of your vinyl.

I totally agree with the digital brigade that setting up a TT can be a real bitch but as you will see from another thread the KD range from Kenwood put that right. It really is a piece of cake.

Also cartridge makers could make life a lot simpler if they did'nt use twat body shapes that make it harder to get the stylus lined up correctly

[Deleted]

@ Derek

You could use that setup.
Keep in mind you will NOT be using an analog signal only like in my test. (analog signal filtered) but you will also introduce an ADC, processing(PC) and a DAC in the equasion (and time skewing ever so slightly).
So it will be an approximation and would be closer to comparing CD with Phono cartridge.

You will also need to use a CD with a constant tone (1 kHz sinewave preferably) and adjust the output of the DAC to exactly the same level as the analog signal.
This must be within 0.1dB ! otherwise other effects will come into play.
when you switch to the same source that has a 0.1 to 0.2 dB higher output level you will NOT experience a difference in audiolevel BUT will have the impression that the higher level will sound 'fuller, more body'
have someone else operate the switches while you ONLY listen.
You CANNOT do this test when you know which signal is played.
Really ... even though you feel you are objective your brain will know and adjust your perception (proved to me several times took me a while to figure that out !)

Make sure you cannot see what he does and do this sequence:

Mute the signal, operate the switch(or not) and then de-mute.
This way you get to hear the signal and then short no signal following signal again.
YOU won't know if the switch was thrown or not so after 10 times (preferably more) of this sequence check how many times you got it right.
Anything between 30 and 70% means gambling 10-30 and 70-90% means you can almost hear the difference 100% means you can hear it.

Remember you're test comes close but does not only introduce limited bandwith, what I did, but a lot of other things too in the digital domain over which you have no control/knowledge.

Testing the right way is a b*#@h !

Solderdude

[derekrumble]

Jan 30, 2010 16:43:03 GMT @solderdude said:

@ Derek

You could use that setup.
Keep in mind you will NOT be using an analog signal only like in my test. (analog signal filtered) but you will also introduce an ADC, processing(PC) and a DAC in the equasion (and time skewing ever so slightly).
So it will be an approximation and would be closer to comparing CD with Phono cartridge.

Re-reading your potings and your reply to me, I see that what I was intending won't satisfy your criteria at all - I have no way to implement a steep 20kHz filter withough putting things into the digital domain.

D.

[Deleted]

But your setup is GREAT for testing the SQ of your Soundcard and PC inerts !

In tests I always TRY to alter only 1 aspect at a time which is difficult to do sometimes.
You would have to build a steep filter (which isn't easy to get it right) or ravage an old CD player (not first generation) with a good filter in it. (worked at Technics/Pananasonic service centre 15 years ago so had easy access to expensive test equipment and parts/PCB's/equipment at that time.
Now have only access to expensive measuring equipment and to parts.