More Vinyl vs. CD,even a child will get this one

[rickcr42]

electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

[videoguy]

Right on Rick! Enjoying a Denon 103R, fed thru a pair of UTC A10 mike input transformers wired for 150 ohms on the primary.

Had them left from a mixer I used years ago; only cost $13.20 u.s. in 1958. Ran a signal generator thru them @ 10mv.; they are ruler flat from 50 hz. to 135khz. there is a little droop in the extreme low end but it does not have much impact the sound quality of symphony recordings from Mercury Living Presence series (late 50's-late 60's) & Command Records classical recordings.

[guadixman]

Videoguy,
that ties in nicely to what some of us have been saying about reveiws in Hi-fi World.

According to them the 103 is a piece of crap - yea right. $13.20 was a lot more like real money then though was'nt it - inflation and all that.

[Deleted]

Yawn !
More boring old stuff in an effort to convince each other that their choice of vinyl is the highest quality route . Results with vinyl are as variable as results from that other great American invention : NTSC colour TV.
A well recorded CD is capable of outperforming a typical ( not extended frequency response) vinyl recording in every aspect, if the data is properly recovered, and I don't mean from a typical DVD player spinning a wobbling bit of polycarbonate at a high speed !
The sad facts are that almost every vinyl set up will sound different, due to various combinations of stylus, tone arm,etc. ,and the choice of mat, and how many times the particular record has been played.
Nevertheless, good results may be achieved in a better than average vinyl set up. Last weekend I heard a Michell Gyrodeck with Shibata stylus playing through a special discrete phono preamp with front end balancing in a preamp that I had built >15 years ago, and passed on to a friend. My original copy of "Carole King-Tapestry" on a 1/2 speed mastered recording did sound very good, through this preamp into a Class A amplifier that I had made earlier, then into a Stax transformer and Stax headphones. It was very good, and could even be improved if the JLH in the preamp had also supplied the phono section, but better than the best from a CD from the exact same master ? NO !
e.g. the best channel separation you can reasonably expect from a typical stylus is around 30dB.
Many of you vinyl fanatics conveniently ignore the actual cost of the equipment you are using, in comparison with a typical CD player that you compare it with. Spend the same amount of the hard earned on the CD route as well, and you will not notice such a great difference, expect perhaps an artificial warmth from the vinyl set up that you may personally find pleasing.

Alex

[Deleted]

OK, ignore measurements for the moment;

Having worked with analogue and digital replay equipment over enough years this is my 2 pennys worth based purely on what I heard reproduced over that time, put as briefly as possible.

When I first started it was obvious that the CDPs could not hold a candle to TTs. As time progressed the lower end of the market became dominated by the CDP, with greater development on its side.

Then we started to see a few little stars appear in the mid market, eg Denon DCD1500II, which still holds it's own now. The mid range TTs were under attack, but the high end was still TT territory, with new stars of their own like the Roksan Xerxes joining the fray.

CDPs have since pushed steadily higher up the range, the best of them out performing the best of the TTs.

I have yet to hear an uber crazy price TT in direct comparison to the likes from CDPs (although I have heard many in isolation) but really think that it is now academic. Solid state recordings and playback media/machines are well on the way, moving parts RIP.

If you have a massive collection of a particular format it is still worth searching the grail. If, however, you are not irrevocably committed, it's time for change.

I will state at this point, in my own system the TT is superior BUT if I had to buy the new equivalents now it would also be about twice the price, so it should be better. I find the advent of new the digital technologies quite exciting. I will not be chasing improvements in TT or solely CDP.

The fly in the ointment is that we are limited by the quality of the recordings, no matter what the playback equipment can do. For every good one there are many poor ones.

It's time to be realists, analogue is finally surrounded and about to be massacred, the same fate awaits CDP and most likely HDD.

Lets just hope that we are not left with MP3 as the playback standard

[robertkd]

Well strangely if Philips had their way CD's would have been 14Bit and 38Khz, the Royal Philips equivalent to record quality!

I guess that's so the dynamic range wasn't much over the theoretical limit of vinyl as well as keeping the distortion at about the same level,.... ;D

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2010 4:07:05 GMT robertkd said:

Well strangely if Philips had their way CD's would have been 14Bit and 38Khz, the Royal Philips equivalent to record quality!

I guess that's so the dynamic range wasn't much over the theoretical limit of vinyl as well as keeping the distortion at about the same level,.... ;D

Robert
In hindsight, it appears that the CD was launched prematurely, because early mass produced DAC chips were not capable of 16 bit resolution.
My old Nakamichi OMS7 was only a 14 bit machine,although it did sound better than my original Sony Player, which was the first available .
I had one 3 days before the official launch of CD, and had to play demo discs loaned by the Sony retailer.

Alex

[robertkd]

Alex you got ripped off the specs say it's

2Ch 44.1Ks/s 16bit LPCM
CLV
F resp 5 to 20,000
S/N R >92db
THD 0.003%

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2010 8:24:42 GMT robertkd said:

Alex you got ripped off the specs say it's

2Ch 44.1Ks/s 16bit LPCM
CLV
F resp 5 to 20,000
S/N R >92db
THD 0.003%

Robert
Back in the early days most CD players were not capable of 16 bit resolution. I read numerous test reports detailing that failing. A genuine 14 bit resolution player was better than many claimed 16 bit machines.
Back then, DACs were graded too, such as with one of Leo's favourites, the TDA1541. Some of the better samples sold for phenomenal prices and were highly sought after.e.g. The tda1541A R1 which is only 3 ranks from heaven"". Their dac chips were selected in this order : tda1541, tda1541A, tda1541A R1, tda1541A R2 ( I am not sure about that one) , tda1541A S1 and cream of crop, the tda1541A S2 adorned with 2 dutch monarchy crowns
Alex

[robertkd]

You mean like this

www.marantzphilips.nl/the_evolution_of_dac_the_digital_filter/

Royal Philips wanted 14bit the other players in the consortium wanted 16bit,..

[guadixman]

Chris,
I bought a s/hand Kenwood KD990 @ £120 it had been badly packed and had been dropped in transit. The lid hinges were smashed and the side of the plinth had been damaged as well. Did it play yes indeed. The tolerances in the bearing assembly are so tight - any tighter and the thing would'nt turn.

Google this model and have a look at the figures - it is as quiet as a CDP. There is no harshness at the top end and to get that with a CDP you have to spend lots of dosh. It has no brickwall filter.

When the Sondek was put up against the CDP from that same company nobody and I mean nobody who was the the London demo thought the CDP was better and I believe that was a £12000 CDP. Not to mention that the Sondek was/is hugely inferior to a lot of other TTs if we are talking about neutrality.

Sandy when CDPs first appeared the lies that were told about it were incredible - the distortion figures were terrible.

Put any CDP up against a top flight DD and it's no contest - you keep banging on about figures, who listens to music in your house the measuring equipment or you.

I've heard that one about the limits of human hearing and it's pure bullshit. There is an audio signal and yes it extends beyond human hearing but that total signal is like a melange, put in a brickwall filter and the signal is not complete.

To match the best of the vinyl rigs you have to spend an awful lot of money on a CDP set-up.

Or to put it another way had you been at that London demo - would you have stood up and told the total (remember everyone felt the same) audience your all wrong - I think at the least they would have thought you mad or delusional - I'm right and your all wrong. AS reported it was a big shock to that company.

Put it another way, your electrical education/indoctrination can be viewed like a filter/s they are soldered into your brain for life - everything you hear has to go through those filters. Whatever you listen to, you simply cannot hear anything without them, so what you hear is not what entered via your conduits because that is all the ear is a conduit.

What hears the signals/music is ALWAYS filtered you cannot hear it as it was entering your ears. I don't think you can accept that.

Really that is the problem - indoctrination. It the same with religious/political freaks only their way is the right way. When these freaks get really nervous they start killing people - take a look at history.

At the end of the day it is people who listen to music NOT measuring equipment. Those who have not been indoctrinated are always going to hear music differently to those with lots of filters soldered into their frontal cortex.

I doubt that you will ever admit to having been indoctrinated. Now that's OK by me but not by those like yourself, that's why you always make disparaging comments about valve gear - why do you always do that? What it demonstrates is that you feel threatened either consciously or unconsciously.

It really does become boring - we know your opinion. I don't know why you make any comment on vinyl related threads. Do you see me on digital threads making derogatory remarks - no - why do I want to do that - it's negative and is a complete waste of my time and it is just threadcrapping.

Sorry to be blunt but you just will not accept that will you?

[XTRProf]

Ha, ha, now back to real life truths:


Valve Amp: Can we argued the professional guitarists, the same people who make music we hear, are wrong? All their amps are valves after painstakingly using the various amps and comparing them.

TT: Why don't you take the same recording and compare them in a hirez system. TT will give us the soul and aliveness as in live music! I'm not saying digital is bad but whatever they throw at to advance the SOTA, the TT regime has also done so. So digital is still doing a catch up game. Also, digital is digital sampling and will not be as close to analogue waveform of pure analogue sound no matter how high the bit or sampling rate. How can that be when analogue is infinite bit and sampling vs digital finite bit and sampling. Music, btw, is analogue. I love both digital and TT. But when it comes to some serious listening and enjoyment. I will take the analogue path anytime.


End to an old jolly good reiteration ..............

[Deleted]

Valve Amp: Can we argued the professional guitarists, the same people who make music we hear, are wrong? All their amps are valves after painstakingly using the various amps and comparing them.

Just for the sake arguement...

The professional guitarists use valves to get the sound THEY WANT.
1) The listener is either doing the same
2) or increasing the effect further than the musician intended.

[Deleted]

I bought a s/hand Kenwood KD990 @ £120 it had been badly packed and had been dropped in transit. The lid hinges were smashed and the side of the plinth had been damaged as well. Did it play yes indeed. The tolerances in the bearing assembly are so tight - any tighter and the thing wouldn't turn.Google this model and have a look at the figures - it is as quiet as a CDP. There is no harshness at the top end and to get that with a CDP you have to spend lots of dosh. It has no brickwall filter.

Stuart,
That's very much in line with what was I saying. The Kenwood was a high end deck in its day, up there with the Denons et al, suitably stonking CDPs of a similar value. I recently took my Meridian to an acquaintances house to compare to his Denon deck (sorry, model number escapes me at the mo EDIT = DP67L with an AT440 cart. I had to ring the poor guy to check, it was bugging me that much .), the Denon was out of its depth, the only aspect we could argue was more impressive was depth of bass, but was it correct? (the recordings were equivalent LP/CD). On the flip side my own TT out performs my CDP with great ease (at substantially greater value)

I find myself in the difficult position of being very pro analogue but my ears have started to tell me that things, they are a changin'. So my music playback world is being upended but I am ready to accept the change if it's for the better.

I won't 'dis' anyones preference, I can only speak for how I find it.

[Nigel]

This forum has become anti vinyl.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2010 17:24:04 GMT @cjarchez said:

Valve Amp: Can we argued the professional guitarists, the same people who make music we hear, are wrong? All their amps are valves after painstakingly using the various amps and comparing them.

Just for the sake arguement...

The professional guitarists use valves to get the sound THEY WANT.
1) The listener is either doing the same
2) or increasing the effect further than the musician intended.

Brickwall filters in modern CDPs ?

[leo]

Valve amps, all that distortion makes them ideal for guitars

Joking aside I don't mind either valves or vinyl, I couldn't live with ONLY vinyl as a source or valves for the amp but its nice to have them along side CD and SS, I like having a choice

[PinkFloyd]

I much prefer the "tone" of vinyl but just can't be arsed with setting up turntables... plus, I sold ALL of my LP's in 1984 (bad move!) and converted the proceeds into compact discs.... I really miss my LP's and have never managed to recapture that wonderful vinyl sound from CD. CD is good but the "soul" is missing, it's way too sterile and analytical. At least, with a valve amp, you can soften the digititis and get somewhere close to an analogue sound.... not ideal but can balance up things nicely.

[andy]

i cant seem to get my TT to sound good, thats why i prefer cd.

[robertkd]

Don't worry Andy your not the only one, a lot of people think they get better sound from vinyl,.... and I guess their happy that way

Strange that everyone says digital sampling blah blah and forget that the music was mastered on tape, now if you recall how tape worked ;D

[PinkFloyd]

Jan 27, 2010 18:44:51 GMT Nigel said:

This forum has become anti vinyl.

Not at all Nigel, it's just that more people are discussing digital these days. I wish there was MORE input from vinyl lovers, I would hate the joint to become exclusively "digital"...... it's up to the music lovers out there to "chip in"..... whether they be analogue or digital doesn't matter. I wouldn't expect 95% of the audience to be analogue though..... it is 2010 and the majority of peeps are digital (they don't know anything better)..... it's all a matter of "numbers".....

This forum has NOT become "anti vinyl" (or anti Valve / tube) and I welcome (and encourage) Vinyl lovers from around the globe to join up and make their opinions heard.

Mike.

[PinkFloyd]

Here you go Nigel...... a dedicated Vinyl / analogue board rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vinyldiscussion I've made you sole moderator so please get the ball rolling and do what you will with it mate......... It's your puppy

Yup. it all starts with a blank space I'm afraid...... let's hope it fills up soon.

Mike.

[derekrumble]

Jan 27, 2010 18:44:51 GMT Nigel said:

This forum has become anti vinyl.

I don't think so. The debate will go on and on though because it's an interesting topic. My position is, as I am sure most of you will rememeber, supportive of digital. Am I anti vinyl? Well.... yes. But I am definately not anti analouge. Fast moving tape, well set u,p is fabulous isn't it - and I reckon there ain't much to choose between that and 32 bit/192kHz dig.

The vinyl v digital issue CANNOT be settled because both analogue and digital systems introduce distortions of their own particular kind. And as we all perceive the world in unique ways then it isn't unexpected that listener A finds it easier to live with digital's shortcomings, while listener B get's his kicks from vinyl / analogue.

However, IMHO, things do get really daft when a vinyl record is produced from a digital master and the LP lover prefers this to direct digital playback. Here one has the worst of both worlds - how can one logically support this position without admitting that one enjoys vinyl's euphonic distortion overlay?

OK, moving on, given that many of us have a collection of plastic, analogue records then we should continue to discuss how we get the best reproduction from them - whether it's to actually listen to the music directly, or if we want to digitise the sound for storage and replay using our computers.

What is dry and unrewearding is this 'vinyl v CD .. which is BEST?' thing. I suppose I don't mind that too much, but the pro-LP people seem to get so aggressive. 'If you don't hear what I hear , then you're wrong' type of thing.

Derek (now late for work - catch you all later)

[robertkd]

@ Derek,

Yes I always wonder about the logic of digital acquisition, production and distribution to the pressing factory, I guess there is a certain attraction to the colouration of vinyl ;D

How come no one argues the attributes of the Edisongraph, surely the lack of any electronics meant a purity of reproduction form those cylinders free of electronic artefacts or did they simply sound like krap and the die/blow hards couldn't let go,...

books.google.com.au/books?id=Fd4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA563&dq=Edisongraph&source=bl&ots=wUvRQAsCiX&sig=0kkNHD26uYbsyS9gcrijJaWXb28&hl=en&ei=zFxhS6HND8uLkAXNhoXuCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

;D

[Deleted]

Robert
I vaguely remember as a child, seeing and hearing in a neighbours place, a wind up record player and replaceable wooden stylii that you screwed in. I don't think the "speaker"was far removed from the ones shown in the old "His Master's Voice" photos.
Alex