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Post by garycake on Jul 3, 2009 13:16:28 GMT
I did all the mods on the xcans v2 including fitting those russian valves, one point i have to make is that i feed the xcans with the superb musical fidelity A5 cd player and then use another set of interconnects to feed a A3 amplifier all fine except i loose quite a bit of sound quality because the amplifier is feeding off the cd player the same time as the xcans, it means i either feed the amp or the xcans seperatly so i am constantly at the back of the hifi, why could not musical fidelity have built in a very high quality headphone amp into their amplifiers it would saved all this hassle or does anyone have a solution apart from buying another A5 cd player just to feed the xcans.
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Post by garycake on Jul 3, 2009 13:57:31 GMT
yes i know they have a passthrough but thats where the quality issue lies. if i feed my integrated amp the same time i loose sound quality in my xcans even when the integrated amp is off, it must be draining the sound quality from the xcans because when i disconnect the passthrough sound takes a jump in quality.
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Post by dejanm on Jul 3, 2009 15:39:29 GMT
Musical Fidelity A3 integrated amp has a tape loop. That means that the architecture of your HiFi system should look like this: - MF A5 CDP connected to cd inputs of A3 amp. - MF X-Cans V2 connected to Tape Record outputs of A3 amp. See the documentation of MF A3: www.musicalfidelity.com/manuals/archive/a3int_eng.pdf |
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Post by garycake on Jul 4, 2009 11:09:08 GMT
hi,
i have also tried that setup too but also get a quality loss and it means the integrated amplifier has to be left on to listen to the xcans. I was thinking if some sort of isolating switch could be made to stop the signal going to the integrated amp at the same time as the xcans but then again the integrated amps sound is better with no xcans in the link, i cant win maybe what about the idea of using a dac from the cd player to feed the xcans but it would have to be a expensive dac to match the A5 sound no i guess i will have to fork out for another A5 cd player thats the only solution i see.
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robertkd
Been here a while! 
Electronics Engineer from sunny Queensland
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Post by robertkd on Jul 4, 2009 11:31:19 GMT
Are you sure it's degradation of the sound quality and not simply a drop in absolute level and as such able to be off set by winding the volume level up a tad??
Robert
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 11:49:26 GMT
yes i know they have a passthrough but thats where the quality issue lies. if i feed my integrated amp the same time i loose sound quality in my xcans even when the integrated amp is off, it must be draining the sound quality from the xcans because when i disconnect the passthrough sound takes a jump in quality. Gary In the X-Can V2 the INPUT RCAs are directly connected to the LOOP OUT, so any cables plugged into there in parallel with your input cables will degrade sound quality. A better arrangement is to incorporate a buffer stage to isolate the input from TAPE OUT, or whatever fancy name they have given it . It may be possible to fit a toggle switch to break this connection, but Mike would be the best person to ask if it is easy to implement this. SandyK |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 12:54:04 GMT
Another thought that involves no surgery.
You could use an (simple but decent quality) external input/tape loop expander box, in reverse. So that you have one input but two switchable outs. The likes of QED with silver plated switches come to mind and can be had very cheaply.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2009 20:48:10 GMT
Miguel
Nice idea, BUT it will still result in a degradation of sound quality unless both sets of output leads are short. Even then ....
A better method, assuming that the driving amplifier has a suitably low impedance, is to have separate feeds via their own output resistors, as shown in the SC HA Tweaks thread, where you can also drive a preamp if required.
Alex
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Post by dejanm on Jul 5, 2009 6:01:41 GMT
I am not sure that I clearly understand what is going on here ... If you put X-Cans at the Tape Out of your A3 you have degradation in sound quality ? Please have in mind that X-Cans in that scenario do not need to be connected to anything by their output RCAs ... If you have clear degradation of sound in this case, then something is wrong with A3. Tape outs are made by simply by-passing volume control in preamp section of your A3. They provide signal on these outs all the time. Connecting the X-Cans, which by the way have a decently large input impedance, shouldn't have any effect on the sound reproduction of A3. At least not in theory ... Give your A3 to somebody to take a look before you perform any additional gymnastics in your HiFi system.
P.S. Before you do that, connect your X-Can to another amps tape-outs to see whether you have the same effect with another amp. If yes, then probably you should take a look into X-Cans ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 6:45:01 GMT
dejanm
Gary is talking about connecting to the Loop Out of the X-CANV2, not the LOOP OUT/TAPE OUT of the MF A3 amplifier. Does the MF A3 have buffered Tape output stage, or does it just go out via a selector switch, which still ends up connecting 2 cables in parallel at the output ?
SandyK
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Post by dejanm on Jul 5, 2009 7:09:24 GMT
dejanm Gary is talking about connecting to the Loop Out of the X-CANV2, not the LOOP OUT/TAPE OUT of the MF A3 amplifier. Does the MF A3 have buffered Tape output stage, or does it just go out via a selector switch, which still ends up connecting 2 cables in parallel at the output ? SandyK I do not know how internally this tape out of A3 is implemented. But, inependently from that, the option with Loop Out of X-Can V2 is the "last resort" - it should be avoided because of additional connections on the signal path. He has to try first with tape-out of his amp, because it is made for these purposes and has some additional features as well (monitoring). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 7:39:18 GMT
dejanm
Irrespective of how the TAPE Out is performed in the A3, whether by selector switch or buffer amplifier, it will NEVER be as transparent as a switched solution at the X-CAN V2 INPUT itself as Gary suggested. The A3 route introduces another length of cable and minor switching losses, or a SQ degradation due to another stage of electronics in the path.
SandyK
P.S.
The decision really comes down to which is used most, the headphones or speakers.
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Post by dejanm on Jul 5, 2009 9:11:50 GMT
dejanm Irrespective of how the TAPE Out is performed in the A3, whether by selector switch or buffer amplifier, it will NEVER be as transparent as a switched solution at the X-CAN V2 INPUT itself as Gary suggested. The A3 route introduces another length of cable and minor switching losses, or a SQ degradation due to another stage of electronics in the path. SandyK P.S. The decision really comes down to which is used most, the headphones or speakers. SandyK, The definitive answer can be given only when we see the implementation of the A3 tape out. But generally speaking - I must disagree with you this time. The path length (PCB and possibly a relay) introduce much less sound degradation than RCA connectors directly on the signal path. The question is of course how much is it really audiable, but the connectors are an issue in audio - especially RCA. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 9:44:05 GMT
dejanm
Are you seriously suggesting that a switched path through the A3 will give better results than a direct connection from the CD player to the X-CAN V2 where headphones are the preferred listening option ? I would put my money on that connection with perhaps an additional toggle/wafer switch in the X-CAN V2 changing over to the amplifier as required. Of course, if the amplifier is the preferred listening mode, then your method would be better.
SandyK
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Post by dejanm on Jul 5, 2009 10:45:40 GMT
dejanm Are you seriously suggesting that a switched path through the A3 will give better results than a direct connection from the CD player to the X-CAN V2 where headphones are the preferred listening option ? I would put my money on that connection with perhaps an additional toggle/wafer switch in the X-CAN V2 changing over to the amplifier as required. Of course, if the amplifier is the preferred listening mode, then your method would be better. SandyK SandyK, You are correct about that statement but the guy has an amp and the speakers. He has to build the system that will suite the best to listening the music over the speakers and headphones as well. The standard way to have both worlds satisfied is the usage of tape out of the amp for the headphones, keeping the signal path for the speakers as simple as possible. The fact that X-Can V2 has RCA output doesn't mean that it should be put between the source and the amp. It is usually used to connect another tape recorder, MD recorder etc. in case if the amp has only one tape out and the system consists of more than one unit that needs that tape out. That is the purpose of additional outputs on the X-Can V2. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 11:18:30 GMT
dejanm Are you seriously suggesting that a switched path through the A3 will give better results than a direct connection from the CD player to the X-CAN V2 where headphones are the preferred listening option ? I would put my money on that connection with perhaps an additional toggle/wafer switch in the X-CAN V2 changing over to the amplifier as required. Of course, if the amplifier is the preferred listening mode, then your method would be better. SandyK SandyK, You are correct about that statement but the guy has an amp and the speakers. He has to build the system that will suite the best to listening the music over the speakers and headphones as well. The standard way to have both worlds satisfied is the usage of tape out of the amp for the headphones, keeping the signal path for the speakers as simple as possible. The fact that X-Can V2 has RCA output doesn't mean that it should be put between the source and the amp. It is usually used to connect another tape recorder, MD recorder etc. in case if the amp has only one tape out and the system consists of more than one unit that needs that tape out. That is the purpose of additional outputs on the X-Can V2. dejanm Who the hell bothers with TAPE OUT these days ? I even have a DAT recorder sitting in a cupboard. ;D It's pretty well a relic of a bygone era, and rarely well implemented in most affordable commercial gear. I did however construct a preamplifier with a very high quality buffer amplifier specifically for this purpose. A friend now has it, but this feature no longer gets used. Well designed Passive switchboxes are quite cheap these days and far more suitable for this application ? Let's choose to disagree on this issue ? SandyK |
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Post by dejanm on Jul 5, 2009 11:35:28 GMT
Yes I agree ... we do not agree on this subject but let's leave it now. It doesn't help much the guy who asked the question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 12:19:02 GMT
Miguel
I think something like that could be a good answer to Gary's problem, but I would still like to see Mike's take on this.
Alexs
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 15:03:48 GMT
Just for hell of it I tried the switching box in reverse I mentioned before. Gear = 506.24/xcans/nad 3020B ( usual amp kinda unavailable right now  ) QED (very old) 3 way tape loop expander, tried with my own rca leads, vdh 102 and Nordost Blue heaven, in each case only the same type leads used for all connections. As a preamble, I usually have my 'phone amp on the tape out for convenience but know full well that cdp direct to 'phone amp is markedly superior. First step was cdp direct to xcans to familiarise. Second was with the reversed box in line, with any of the leads the effect of the box was audible, similar to removing a beneficial small tweak. The Blue Heavens stayed in place for rest of the testing. Third was to connect the main amp up too, via the box. There was NO audible difference, using this kit. Whether the amp was on or off, the switch box doing its job as suspected. If the box was switched for both xcans and nad a small drop in level was apparent, compensating with volume showed a slight loss in quality as well. Fourth was to compare this to going via the tape loop of the nad, after several changeovers the switch box method produced superior results to tape loop method. Fifth was to compare the above for loudspeakers, still a slight degradation with the switch box in line, though less marked than headphone listening. Obviously personal priorities will play an important part on the final configuration chosen. For me, once I get my full system put together again I'll plump for the reversed switch box method, as it is definitely better and still fits my usage/priorities. Oh, by the way, I still use analogue tape and mini disc extensively, hence the usage of the tape loop in the first place.  |
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) QED (very old) 3 way tape loop expander, tried with my own rca leads, vdh 102 and Nordost Blue heaven, in each case only the same type leads used for all connections.