A 'HiFi' computer music player.

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2009 22:32:58 GMT PinkFloyd said:

Anyone tried a strip of rainbow foil on the drive?

Mike
Perhaps if you sent me a strip from your stash, I could give it a go ? I don't think I could afford Peter Belt's asking price!

Alex

[Deleted]

It would appear that I am not alone "imagining " differences.
Looks like even Apples can benefit from some tweaking !

Attached are excerpts from www.computeraudiophile.com/content/PC-Performanceupgrades-impact-sound-Honest-Canvass-Opinion


Alex


Posts: 369
Evil jitter raises its head again
"Again for like the bizillionth time... THERE IS NO JITTER INSIDE THE COMPUTER."


It does not matter what you call it. When bit perfect data sounds different the usual suspect is timing errors or jitter, which why some people feel that there are different forms of jitter, each of which can affect the sound to different degrees depending on the magnitude and type of jitter.

Perhaps it is EMI, RFI or something else besides jitter. The observation remains that the sound can change when different components are substituted and the data is still verified to be bit perfect.

Of course IMO this is only a problem if you are hung up on bit perfect data. I tend to favor superior sound, better music, the better illusion of reproduced music to reflect real music. One of my highly regarded players is cMP/cPlay which by deliberate intent is usually used to deliver bit imperfect data that just sounds better. Then there is always the school of thought that some manipulations of data are better done in software than hardware, such as a DAC, for superior sonics.

How superior sonics is achieved may matter to you and should matter to any audio hardware or software designer. It does not matter to me as long as it sounds better.
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Posts: 4485

Hi Opus - Thanks for
Hi Opus - Thanks for starting this thread. I'd like to make one requirement before others contribute to this one.

1. In order to provide an opinion on whether or not some of these configuration changes impact the sound you must have tried it yourself. The one exception is this: If you can provide a technical explanation for why something does or does not have a sonic impact, not why something should or shouldn't have an impact, then please help out here.

In all of my testing I haven't heard a sonic impact from disabling Spotlight. However, since Spotlight doesn't necessarily do much at all times the impact may be tough to gauge. The biggest impact that I've heard from a hardware change is moving to an SSD. I also demonstrated this at the Symposium and virtually everyone thought the SSD was much better sonically.

On the Windows side many of the configuration changes I've done have increased system stability and pretty much eliminated glitches during playback. Glitches definitely have an impact on the sound. Plus, blowing tweeters doesn't sound very good.

__________________

Chris Connaker

Founder
Computer Audiophile

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Wed, 08/05/2009 - 20:37 — silverlight

Posts: 46

Additional observations - SSD vs HD
So I did some extensive A/B'ing tonight listening to music from an internal SSD versus external HD via USB. I can say I clearly hear an improvement in the SQ. Increased clarity and detail and improved soundstage (more clarity of placement of instruments/vocals in the soundstage and respective realism, not larger or change of shape of the soundstage). In my system it was not jaw-dropping / dramatic change, but it's definitely more than subtle. Now it's not a completely fair comparison b/c I suspect SATA via USB is not as good as internal SATA (and in particular I've applied Stabilant 22 on most of the internal connectors in the Mini from memory to SSD and just about any other non-soldered connector I could get at when I disassembled it)................ I know computers are sources of lots of EMI/RFI. Also used CAT7 network cable with a Shakti online. Also using a linear PSU upgrade from Bolder Cable to replace the stock apple switching PSU. Revelation Audio Labs is also making a FW800 -> FW400 prophecy cryo silver cable (with the power pin pulled at the Mini (fw800) connector side - tweak mentioned in this and other threads). Can post listening impressions on it when received.
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[Sol]

Aug 14, 2009 0:35:05 GMT @sandyk said:

Attached are excerpts from www.computeraudiophile.com/content/PC-Performanceupgrades-impact-sound-Honest-Canvass-Opinion

I went to the thread .. an interesting dialogue with some great observations.

[Deleted]

TO ALL 3M 2552 TAPE USERS.
If you have any left, try peeling off the label from your PSU's SMPS, and attaching a full width strip the length of the PSU, and also between the PSU and the front metal work inside the top cover if you have enough.
Alex

[Sol]

I'm saving what I have left ....(other than what's going in the post to Leo tomorrow) .. the reason!

I have some toys up for sale .. the aim being to spend some dosh earned through sales on a Mac pro with 4Tb of drives. No more compression for me .. oh no

My current PC is dieing a slow death at the mo ... a mac is appealing ... and the latest Mac Pro's are incredibly quiet!

In for a penny in for a pound (or several in this case, requiring the sale of a racebike, and an understanding wife)

[Spirit]

Aug 18, 2009 16:44:29 GMT Sol said:

(or several in this case, requiring the sale of a racebike, and an understanding wife)

Some might wonder if getting rid of an understanding wife was a good idea... ;D

[Will]

An understanding wife? Oh, the pinnacle of the female species Those with them are truly blessed

With the discussion of Blu-ray/dampening and ones and zeros cropping up again, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth.

To me it makes no sense that ones and zeros can sound different. If two files, stored on a computer, have the same checksum, then they should sound the same. But they don't from what I have heard. Hearing tracks that that have been ripped and then re-recorded on a bluray burner has proven that something has happened. The re-recorded music sounds better. Having had a chance to listen to the tracks that have been through the same process on a dampened recorder, there is a further improvement. My own experience of listening to music from the PC via two different media players has shown there is a difference there, also.

It should not be happening. It does not make sense (yet) knowing what I do about data integrity.

What I do know, though, that the difference that I can hear is worth pursuing, whether I understand the mechanism behind it or not.

Stop thinking about it, and use this to further enhance your enjoyment of the music, which what this is all about.

And if you can't hear a difference? Well, just enjoy what you are listening to.

[Deleted]

Aug 21, 2009 11:51:20 GMT Will said:

An understanding wife? Oh, the pinnacle of the female species Those with them are truly blessed

With the discussion of Blu-ray/dampening and ones and zeros cropping up again, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth.

To me it makes no sense that ones and zeros can sound different. If two files, stored on a computer, have the same checksum, then they should sound the same. But they don't from what I have heard. Hearing tracks that that have been ripped and then re-recorded on a bluray burner has proven that something has happened. The re-recorded music sounds better. Having had a chance to listen to the tracks that have been through the same process on a dampened recorder, there is a further improvement. My own experience of listening to music from the PC via two different media players has shown there is a difference there, also.

It should not be happening. It does not make sense (yet) knowing what I do about data integrity.

What I do know, though, that the difference that I can hear is worth pursuing, whether I understand the mechanism behind it or not.

Stop thinking about it, and use this to further enhance your enjoyment of the music, which what this is all about.

And if you can't hear a difference? Well, just enjoy what you are listening to.

Will
I have also been active with providing a couple of download links to a couple of 24/96 .wav files to a few members of another forum as well as our regulars. As a result if this, one of their members has just taken delivery of an external LG BR writer, and although still waiting for a roll of 3M tape to arrive, has already reported improvements over his Teac writer when using EAC.
The good bit for me, is that after ripping, certain tracks, his checksums are the same as mine. This aids meaningful file comparisons. You may have noticed my suggestion to remove the label from the PC's SMPS, and fit a full width strip of the 3M tape.. Well, today I investigated things like slowing down further the fan in front of the HDDs, but I couldn't really improve it, as it was already temperature controlled from the MB. Rather than just put the covers back on and leave it, I decided to fit a full width 3M strip on 2 sides of the SMPS as well. Also a strip inside the top of the PC above the metalwork where the BR writer is fitted.
After that, I put it all back together, and reripped the same 24/96 track for comparison. I was so impressed,that when I posted the download link to a couple of people, I called the file "Simply Better!"
A little while ago, I re-ripped "California Project-Papa Doo Run Run" which a few of you have heard tracks from. Another big surprise: tracks that I originally thought sounded "so,so", revealed incredible interplay between the voices, and absolute perfection with the harmony. They sounded so incredibly melodic, yet softer, but with no harshness, yet loads of detail, AND things that I had never noticed previously. This is now all at a very much higher level, BUT, the bloody checksums are still the same !!!
Alex

[Will]

Alex,

something you could try is to physically de-couple the fans in you PC, using the likes of www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp or www.quietpc.com/nz/casefansacc.html#gaskets I prefer the soft fan mounts myself, and very good results with them in my main PC. I even used them on the already quiet fan in my Seasonic S12-430 psu. I went to great pains when I built the PC, a couple of years ago, to make it as quiet as possible, with good air flow. It uses two 120mm fans, one at the front and one at the rear, both at 5V. The PSU has a speed controlled fan it. The cpu heatsink is also passive, relying on the airflow through the case.

What Jeff jokingly said about the ram heatspreaders might not be to far off the mark, either, but for other reasons. As we know silicon conducts better the cooler it is, so theoretically by adding the 3M tape to the heatspreaders should keep the ram cooler. But that might be stretching things abit The 3m tape dampens vibration, but also help dissipate heat. This could possibly contribute to to the improvements heard, similar to the reasons we thinks the metal can LM4562 sounds better. Some guys over at Diyaudio have stuck a peltier cooler on the sabre dac, and reported an improvement. Makes you think a bit.

By the way, has anyone found the LG burner cheaper than this? www.ebuyer.com/product/136317 cheaper than the OEM version, which is a bit unusual. I see that this is also stared appearing, I wonder if it's different to the other? www.ebuyer.com/product/169565

[leo]

Thanks Sol, it arrived today I'm going to be a away for a week (going tomorrow morning) so look forward to give it a try when I get home.

[Deleted]

something you could try is to physically de-couple the fans in you PC, using the likes of www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp or www.quietpc.com/nz/casefansacc.html

Will
I have already seen a kit from a supplier in Melbourne that has those, as well as a few other bits, for AU$25
I am trying to locate a Sydney supplier first.
Alex

www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=4735

[Deleted]

----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:23 PM
Subject: [Computer Audiophile] PC Performance/upgrades impact on sound - Honest Canvass of Opinion


> Greetings, sandyk
> Computer Audiophile notifies you of new comments:
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> New comment:
> Author: silverlight
> Title: LG BluRay for ripping
>
> I can confirm SandyK's findings that the LG BluRay is an excellent drive for
> ripping. Decided to experiment and got it plus an enclosure (GGW-H20L). It
> has handily outperformed the quality of rips I had done using the TEAC
> DW-224SL (using DBPoweramp and EAC both with AccurateRip engaged; I should
> note it rips FAR slower than the TEAC, 1.3x average so far vs 9x or so for
> the TEAC). I will be receiving some of the 3M tape on monday and will apply
> to the LG drive to test for further improvement and will report back.
>
> Link: www.computeraudiophile.com/content/PC-Performanceupgrades-impact-sound-Honest-Canvass-Opinion#comment-24735

[robertkd]

Aug 21, 2009 15:05:30 GMT Will said:

Alex,

something you could try is to physically de-couple the fans in you PC, using the likes of www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp or www.quietpc.com/nz/casefansacc.html#gaskets I prefer the soft fan mounts myself, and very good results with them in my main PC. I even used them on the already quiet fan in my Seasonic S12-430 psu. I went to great pains when I built the PC, a couple of years ago, to make it as quiet as possible, with good air flow. It uses two 120mm fans, one at the front and one at the rear, both at 5V. The PSU has a speed controlled fan it. The cpu heatsink is also passive, relying on the airflow through the case.

What Jeff jokingly said about the ram heatspreaders might not be to far off the mark, either, but for other reasons. As we know silicon conducts better the cooler it is, so theoretically by adding the 3M tape to the heatspreaders should keep the ram cooler. But that might be stretching things abit The 3m tape dampens vibration, but also help dissipate heat. This could possibly contribute to to the improvements heard, similar to the reasons we thinks the metal can LM4562 sounds better. Some guys over at Diyaudio have stuck a peltier cooler on the sabre dac, and reported an improvement. Makes you think a bit.

By the way, has anyone found the LG burner cheaper than this? www.ebuyer.com/product/136317 cheaper than the OEM version, which is a bit unusual. I see that this is also stared appearing, I wonder if it's different to the other? www.ebuyer.com/product/169565

em not so quick Will silicon has a negative coefficient

library.thinkquest.org/10784/tempcoeffs_resistivity.html

as for noise vs temperature you may want to refer to Boltzmann's theorem

but as I don't actually know anything, who am I to say anything

[Deleted]

This time I will have to agree with Robert.
Silicon transistor performance improves with temperature, as long as recommended ratings are not exceeded. All that extreme cooling does for a PC is permit a processor to be overclocked further without as high a risk of destruction. In fact , a processor that isn't overclocked is likely to perform worse at extremely low temperatures.
I would take the findings in DIYAudio regarding the Sabre DAC with a big grain of salt.
They may have been reducing effects of excessive heating in some area, that was detrimental to performance.

but as I don't actually know anything, who am I to say anything

Yes, Robert is pretty cluey in most, but not all, areas of electronics.

Alex

[Will]

Hmmm, made a cock of myself there, didn't I?

Wondering where I got that misconception from, probably a combination of misplaced superconductor theory and mojito over-dose!

[robertkd]

Aug 22, 2009 9:53:17 GMT Will said:

Wondering where I got that misconception from, probably a combination of misplaced superconductor theory and mojito over-dose!

well generally lower temperature lower noise versus higher temperature higher gain

it's a cruel universe we live in

[Deleted]

Aug 21, 2009 15:05:30 GMT Will said:

Alex,

something you could try is to physically de-couple the fans in you PC, using the likes of www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp or www.quietpc.com/nz/casefansacc.html#gaskets I prefer the soft fan mounts myself, and very good results with them in my main PC. I even used them on the already quiet fan in my Seasonic S12-430 psu. I went to great pains when I built the PC, a couple of years ago, to make it as quiet as possible, with good air flow. It uses two 120mm fans, one at the front and one at the rear, both at 5V. The PSU has a speed controlled fan it. The cpu heatsink is also passive, relying on the airflow through the case.....Will

Will
This morning, the fan gaskets and soft rubber mounts arrived from N.Z. and have now been fitted. I now agree with your observation that the soft rubber mounts may be even more effective than the AcoustiFan ultra soft silicone gaskets, due to them spacing the fan a smidgin away from the metalwork. Unfortunately, I had to use the gasket on the front mounted HDD fan due to insufficient room between the fan and ther HDD metalwork to get my fingers in there. I did however use the rubber mounts on the rear 120mm fan to good effect.
I have now re-ripped (again!!) California Project-Papa Doo Run Run (16/44.1) and Fleetwood Mac-Rumours 24/96. There is a small but noticeable improvement with the Papa Doo Run Run, but a much larger improvement with the Fleetwood Mac album in 24/96. Percussion has quite a bit more impact, and there is a further improvement in the sense of "being there".
A NYC Computer Audiophile Forum member is now achieving excellent results with a 3M dampened external Teac drive when running off his Notebook's batteries, even now surpassing that of his external 3M dampened LG BR drive, which appears to be held back a little by it's inbuilt SMPS. "Silverlight" is also achieving better performance due to the use of an internal SSD, which is impervious to noise and vibration.He is also using Senn. 800s, and is now waiting delivery of a nw slim external LG BR writer that runs off USB power , and will be capable of being run from a single linear 5V supply. The drive will also be dampened with 3M 2552 anti vibration tape.
Alex

[Will]

Having sorted out the audio card I'll be using ( here ) I have been trying to narrow down the motherboard that I will use.

It needs to be fanless (although I will be ventilating the case), run PATA/SATA, and also run from a 12v supply, for ease of use at my end.

I've come up with this Intel D945GSEJT

Looks solid, with good quality components. The 12V input is regulated on board to the other voltages, and I would guess that they could be ripe for direct replacement if wanted.

Anybody have any experience of it?

[Will]

May 9, 2009 9:04:12 GMT pagan said:

Will

just a few thoughts....

loose keyboard/mouse etc and remote control it, and or remote admin from another pc.

use a small usb touch screen for local control.

use a linear psu for the main pcb.

Although I have found a nice 7" touchscreen for this project, I've been having a tat around this morning with Remote admin/desktop. I've now got full control of my main PC, in the dining room (which has all my music files on it, with a decent spdif output) and I'm able to control it from my laptop in the living room, where my amp and dac are. The main pc is linked to the dac via a nice long coax.

This has made comparing tracks much easier now, as before I would have to run back and forth, to select tracks when comparing upgrades and Alex's latest rips

Makes for a much more relaxed music session as well.

[Will]

I've actually got around to buying some bits and pieces for this musicPC idea, courtesy of getting older.

I've settled on an Intel D510MO itx motherboard, 4GB RAM and I'm powering it with a picopsu 80 supply.

The little supply is quite handy, and just needs a 12V supply. Currently using a buckshee 12V smps brick to power it, and will replace that with a linear one as a next step. The other next step is to build up one of those USB power supplies that Alex recently posted.

The motherboard has a spdif output, so will compare that to the spdif output of my Asus sound card.

Long term, I'm aiming for a complete linear supply for the motherboard, separate supplies for the OS and storage drives (SSD) and possibly separate supplies for the sound card.

Initially, though, might be a good idea to get some sound out of it!

[Will]

Here's a little update.

I've hand-crafted a beautiful wood and aluminium development board, as can be seen in the picture below ( ) which I'll use as I mess with things.

I've fit a power switch, and linked the spdif out from the soundcard to a bnc connector. I've also bungied the harddrive, to stop vibrations being carried. Now that it's set up, I'm using remote desktop to control it, so that I do not need to have a monitor/keyboard/mouse connected.

I've tried a variety of tracks, from CD rips through to 24/196 tracks, all play.

I've not gone for a detailed listen, but it is better than my CD player, with better detail retrieval.

[Deleted]

Will - that's good thinking. Excellent approach.

Derek Rumble

[Deleted]

Interesting stuff Will.

Is that the same Asus sound card you recommended to me (which I'm chuffed with) or have you now moved on?

Your DC in for the picopsu 80, ie the plug/socket at the bracket, looks unusual. Anything different going on there?

Chris.

ps love the bungy mount HDD, simple but effective

[Will]

Thanks chaps.

I'm still using the same Asus card, Chris, and probably wont upgrade it until I've 'hit the buffers' in other areas. I've only used the spdif out, and was wondering what the analogue was like, have you tried it?

I'd love to find a hi-res spdif only card for the PC, and the closest I can find is the Juli@ where you can ditch the analog half of the card (it splits) and just use spdif. Trouble is, as a tight git, spending £100 odd and then ditching half would chafe a little!

I've identified the dac on our card WM8766 and using the datasheet, it's easy to see where to pinch the i2s signal, which could be interesting to try.

The power socket plug is just a maplin spring terminal jobby, as I needed to re-terminate the power lead to fit the picopsu socket, and that was all they had!

The one thing that has struck me is how utterly quiet the pc is. The only noise I can hear is the disk hard drive seeking every so often!

[leo]

Been looking for a card with no onboard dac just spdif myself , I2S too would be nice.

No idea what these are like cgi.ebay.co.uk/24-192-PCI-Digital-Sound-Card-Musiland-Digital-Times-/260585265455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cac17992f

Nice work BTW Will