Loudness Wars

[Deleted]

From the Wikipedia link attached.
SandyK


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

[Deleted]

Just more proof of what weird creatures humans are.

Stuff computers becoming "Self aware", what if.....















the rest of the animal kingdom suddenly wised up, and collectively decided to wipe us out, anything from eating us to riddling us with diseases they're immune to.

"The meek shall inherit the Earth"? Be careful what you ask for!

I know I've off on a bit of tangent here, maybe just the mood I'm in.

[Deleted]

cjarchez

I think it is more a case of greedy corporate heayweights dictating to us what we should be doing ,so as to maximise THEIR profits.

SandyK

[Deleted]

that's certainly the more lucid reason!

Good recovery, thread back on track...

[pagan]

Jun 15, 2008 22:34:44 GMT @sandyk said:

cjarchez

I think it is more a case of greedy corporate heayweights dictating to us what we should be doing ,so as to maximise THEIR profits.

SandyK

Do they actually dictate to us?
They look at what sell's to the masses.
Then they provide more of what sell's.

And the sheep are happy

Whether it's good for the sheep, who cares?
They don't, and some leach(lawyer) will prove whoever pay's the most, right.

[rickcr42]

Do they actually dictate to us?

actually yes by taking away options without ever asking then convincing the ignorant it is a GOOD thing with as much brain overload (white papers,magazine articles,tech pages) as they can throw out creating a situation where no one actually READS the stuff but by sheer amount of weight leaves the impression of being true to the casual observer

They look at what sell's to the masses.Then they provide more of what sell's.

lowest common denominator.They shoot for the bottom end and hit their target evey time ;D

[Deleted]

Interesting CHEAP software for taming some of those recent LOUD CDs and DVDs.

www.cutestudio.net/data/products/audio/seedeclip/index.php

I purchased the program a couple of days ago, as I have a large downloaded collection of Promo LPCM Music Videos (NTSC mainly) I have had fabulous results with the 5 that I have adjusted so far. Far more natural sounding, and a better soundstage as well. There is a free trial version for downloading. It is of course , most suitable for CD audio decompressing. Not necessarily 100% accurate, as different compression schemes are used by the studios, but more listenable, IMO.

SandyK

[rowuk]

I think the reason is far more sublime. Listening habits have changed.
Audio is no longer an exclusive activity in the confines of ones home. There is hardly any activity left where one does not have an iPod attached to the ears. People exercizing, at work, at school, on the bike................. That means there is competition for the air waves and only a massively compressed signal will be heard.

The constant input of aural stimulation also decreases our sensitivity to low level information - making compression the only commercially acceptable solution!

Another part of the problem is that people are scared to be alone with themselves. The 24x7 entertainment isolates them from themselves. I refuse to speak with anyone that has one or both ears plugged up. I demand that they make arrangements to listen to me without competition. DBX used to have an expander for handling stuff like this. Maybe it needs to come back!

On the other hand, I have often wished for a car CD player with selectable compression. A great symphony would be much more enjoyable when on the road that way! (Rick, the same would apply to the ANALOG 8track too)

[rickcr42]

(Rick, the same would apply to the ANALOG 8track too)

i draw the line there bud !

8-Track is a medium that not only should never been invented but having been invented never actually put into production as a "serious" Hi-Fi playback method.In fact if i were to way the pros and cons

PRO 8-Track :
____________

UM.............gimme a minute.....errrr....NOPE ! Can't think of a single one

AGAINST 8-Track :
______________

1-wobbled as often as it played a note

2-more often than not would fade out a song then fade "up' on the next TRACK (only four acually but THAT was already taken by Open-Reel so........) and if there is anything more aggravating than having a song carved up into "Part-1" and "Part-2" i don't know what it is short of having someone put a stick directly in my eye

3-No matter how well cared for the cartridges were and no matter how well maintained the deck each play was a game of "russian roulette".Maybe it ewast the tape,maybe not,pull the fkn trigger and see butweed

4-Unlike the cassete taking a cartridge apart for repair was a damn nightmare from hell and even IF successful meant you ruined the end label

5-The highways of america were a testiment to the futility of the 8-Track with their miles and miles f previously "cased" magantic tape.

Nope.Maybe it was analog but the label alone is not enough to make something QUALITY AUDIO so when the cassette actually was brought from "dictarion medium" to "high fidelity audio medium" it was a boon to any who would have music in the car NOT beamed in by a DJ (radio)

[Deleted]

The constant input of aural stimulation also decreases our sensitivity to low level information - making compression the only commercially acceptable solution!

Robin
I can't believe that YOU made a statement like that !

There is hardly any activity left where one does not have an iPod attached to the ears. People exercizing, at work, at school, on the bike................. That means there is competition for the air waves and only a massively compressed signal will be heard.

Robin
You may have chosen to have an iPod attached to your ears, but that is not the choice of a lot of people who not only value their hearing, being aware of the dangers of continual exposure to loud noise, but are more aware of their own safety.
iPods should not be permjitted at school. Period! They come into the same disruptive category as mobile phones being used at school. There should only be iPods in use at work in APPROVED repetitive jobs ONLY. It is not possible to perform at your best when part of your attention is being diverted elsewhere. Canned music like Seeburg and Musak, were deliberately engineered to be not disruptive to performance.
As for listening to an iPod etc.,while in charge of a moving vehicle is a practice to be discouraged, and I believe it is no more safe than the use of a mobile phone while driving, and that includes hands free too ! It is overdue for law enforcement to crack down on the use of any device which impairs complete attention while in charge of a moving vehicle, WHETHER 2 wheel or multiple wheels.It has also been proven that the use of iPods,MP3 players etc by pedestrians, has been a cause of many accidents involving them.
As far as I am concerned iPods etc. are the modern replacement for incessant chewing of gum by bored people!
SandyK

[rowuk]

Sandy,
don't worry, let me explain.

The entertainment industry caters to the masses who "want" 24x7 entertainment. If music had full dynamic range, the jogger would be "inconvenienced" by having to continually adjust the volume every time the music got soft. As deafness increases, dynamic range becomes ever less significant. The industry therefore pre-chews the music and solves those 2 problems by creating a third.
I do not condone this stand, but understand the commercial implications.

I NEVER have background music playing (except in the car when I am alone) and in my presence neither does my family. When I listen to music, it is like at a concert - a complete work from front to back, no zapping or "adjusting". That is why using a hard drive is so enjoyable. All of the EQ and clean up is done once and I have freed myself of certain rituals that are necessary to keep vinyl pristine enough to provide a long lasting experience.

BY THE WAY, a lot of analog recorded vinyl (except for some audiophile records) have at least 2:1 compression AND frequencies below around 100 Hz turned into mono. The common reasoning in the good old days was that tape without extra noise reduction only had 50 - 60dB signal to noise AND the engineers were taught that you could not squeeze the 110 dB dynamic range into a living room.
My second son is almost finished with his recording Arts degree and has some VERY interesting literature about the "good old days". Even today, compressors are used in classical music to "thicken the sound of choral music and even out discrepancies in the performances............................

That being said, I could really appreciate a compressor in my car CD player.............

[rowuk]

Jun 19, 2008 22:20:31 GMT rickcr42 said:

(Rick, the same would apply to the ANALOG 8track too)

i draw the line there bud !

8-Track is a medium that not only should never been invented but having been invented never actually put into production as a "serious" Hi-Fi playback method.In fact if i were to way the pros and cons

PRO 8-Track :
____________

UM.............gimme a minute.....errrr....NOPE ! Can't think of a single one

AGAINST 8-Track :
______________

1-wobbled as often as it played a note

2-more often than not would fade out a song then fade "up' on the next TRACK (only four acually but THAT was already taken by Open-Reel so........) and if there is anything more aggravating than having a song carved up into "Part-1" and "Part-2" i don't know what it is short of having someone put a stick directly in my eye

3-No matter how well cared for the cartridges were and no matter how well maintained the deck each play was a game of "russian roulette".Maybe it ewast the tape,maybe not,pull the fkn trigger and see butweed

4-Unlike the cassete taking a cartridge apart for repair was a damn nightmare from hell and even IF successful meant you ruined the end label

5-The highways of america were a testiment to the futility of the 8-Track with their miles and miles f previously "cased" magantic tape.

Nope.Maybe it was analog but the label alone is not enough to make something QUALITY AUDIO so when the cassette actually was brought from "dictarion medium" to "high fidelity audio medium" it was a boon to any who would have music in the car NOT beamed in by a DJ (radio)

Teac Tascam model 38 would have been the 1/2" 8 track reel to reel (at least one of the affordable ones. Fostex also had one but I don't remember the designation). I used to sell the whole Tascam line to the military here in Europe.

[Deleted]

Rowuk
My reply was deliberately provocative, so as to make some people realise the long term implications.( if being distracted does give them a long term !)
Yes, I am old enough to remember what they used to do with vinyl back then , including mono low bass and compression.
Instead of using a compressor in the car, why don't you invest in sound deadening material for the doors,under the carpets,the firewall and under bonnet areas ?Also makes the car more pleasant to drive ! Wind rush noise is a bit harder to fix,though!
(like impossible?) Perhaps you are already driving a Rolls Royce or Mercedes etc. ? ;D

SandyK

[charleyphogg]

Jun 20, 2008 18:02:33 GMT rowuk said:

n.

The entertainment industry caters to the masses who "want" 24x7 entertainment.

Actually, I think the masses cater to the entertainment industry. For the most part, all the masses know is what they hear on the radio. Radio is geared to commercionalism, being that they only allow,what, 3,4 minute songs at the most? Dictating what the artists produce in order to get on the airwaves

[charleyphogg]

Jun 15, 2008 4:45:43 GMT @sandyk said:

From the Wikipedia link attached.
SandyK


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Nice graph SandyK!!!!

I'f I recall right, about '83 is roughly when cd's first came out. 87 or so was just about when they started to gain popularity. Coincidence?

[rowuk]

Jun 20, 2008 22:12:22 GMT @sandyk said:

Rowuk
My reply was deliberately provocative, so as to make some people realise the long term implications.( if being distracted does give them a long term !)
Yes, I am old enough to remember what they used to do with vinyl back then , including mono low bass and compression.
Instead of using a compressor in the car, why don't you invest in sound deadening material for the doors,under the carpets,the firewall and under bonnet areas ?Also makes the car more pleasant to drive ! Wind rush noise is a bit harder to fix,though!
(like impossible?) Perhaps you are already driving a Rolls Royce or Mercedes etc. ? ;D

SandyK

Alex,
I drive a Mazda6 caravan. With the price of petrol, fuel economy is big factor as I drive 50,000km per year. Effective sound dampening adds weight and cuts down the mileage.

The easy solution for SQ in the car is to listen to talk shows on AM or LW radio (Voice of America and the like). It is compressed to hell, easy to understand and you can learn something without getting upset with the sound quality.

[Deleted]

Robi
Over here in Australia, FM stereo is also suitable for your type of forced listening, except perhaps for dedicated classical music stations. Bloody MP3 carts and LOTS of compression!
Alex

[Will]

www.tomshardware.co.uk/guitar-hero-metallica-death-magnetic,news-29207.html

Sounds like another victim of the loudness wars...