X-Can v3 to preamp?

[skydog]

A question to you, the specialists:

Can MF v3 be used as a preamp after some certain modification ? I've read someplace an interview with MF producer where he mentioned that electic scheme allows v3 to be used this way.
What modifications are needed?
Well here it is what was said :"... The V3's circuit is amazing -- you could use it as a preamp if you got a cable terminated in a phono plug. Actually, I thought about adding an output connected to the volume control, but then you'd need a switch. And then we could have added an extra input (or two), and we'd need to add another switch -- and where would it all end? With a product that was a preamp and cost $1000, and that's a different kettle of fish entirely." It is from www.onhifi.com/product/musica...ty_xcan_v3.htm.

Can anybody specify what's to be done to change v3 into preamp?

[bennyboy]

It will work as a preAmp. I use mine to drive a pair of small speakers for my computor(when I'm not enjoying my 650's).

As a pre, you'll need a stereo 1/4 phone plug to a pair of rca plugs.

[skydog]

This is just the point. Where should this stereo plug be connected to on the circuit? I'm not strong on electronics part but can do soldering myself, only need to know what and where. Could you specify please?
Once you drive with your X-can v3 PC speakers (passive or active?) then it could also drive any power amp. Is my understanding correct? If so the idea is to modify X-can to be used as a preamp in a normal stereo system. Again I'll quate a MF man: ..."We're using the Tri-Vista SACD player's output stage, only we've replaced the trivistors with 6922s" from www.onhifi.com/product/musicalfidelity_xcan_v3.htm.

Isn't it worthy to modify X-can into a decent Preamp ? I hope it's not a big problem for a good specialist here at RockGrotto. Neeeed your help!

[rickcr42]

This is just the point. Where should this stereo plug be connected to on the circuit?

Headphone Jack.Would mean unplugging the headphones and then plugging in a TRS plug to RCA Plug adapter that is connected to the amp for preamp use



a bit of a clunky interface in that you need to constantly plug/unplug depending on if you are using it as a headphone amp or a preamp plus you would be limited to either a single input source or again plugging/unplugging.

I have/do at times use a "headphone amp" stage as a preamplifier (more like a line driver due to the output stage) so I whipped up an add-on accesory box to eliminate all that plugging in.Mine cost a frikkin' fortune just in parts considering it is a simple SWITCH BOX because it uses high quality rotary switches for input and output switching,uses high quality RCA jacks for the line inpouts and outputs,has extensive chassis damping plus uses a locking Neutrik for the headphone out but if you want simple and cheap you have a couple of DIY options



Input selector box with RCA inputs and RCA outputs-can be as simple as a DPDT toggle switch for "input 1/input 2" switching to a multiple position rotary that chooses 1-of-6 inputs

Output selector box with RCA input,an RCA line output (preamp use) and a TRS hadphone output jack with a DPDT toggle switch to select between the two.


Combine the two into a single box and add a "break" between the two where you insert the X-Cans

[skydog]

rickcr42,

Could you post(or sent to my PM) the pics of your Switchbox? As I understand CDplayer is connected to MF in a normal way, then via TRS plug to RCA Plug adapter to amp. To power amp ins or integr amp line ins?
What's your oppinion about sound performance of MF X-can v3 as an preamp?
My goal is to add some tube charm to my stereo system with B&W P-5 at the end.

[rickcr42]

To power amp ins or integr amp line ins?

Yes.

Any line input but if an integrated amp you will likely have too much gain so will need to attenuate it using one of the volume controls (either the headphone amp or the integrated).Using the headphone amp as the set-attenuator and the integtrated as the system volume is the best way for lowest noise/highest dynamic range/least chance of overloading the amp input but would mean re-setting each time after using the headphone amp volume control with headphones.This can all be avoided by either using a straight power amp or an integrated with a "Pre out/amp in" jack panel so you could bypass the integrateds internal preamp stage

What's your oppinion about sound performance of MF X-can v3 as an preamp?

My opinion is any headphone amp designed to drive a medium impedance load make a dandy line driver/preamp that because the output stage can drive more current performs well even if your preamp/headphone amp is near and the power amps located far away (up to say 20 ft).The X-Cans in particular should sound fine,maybe even better than many dedicated preamps all thing considered.

My goal is to add some tube charm to my stereo system with B&W P-5 at the end.

I find most transistor gear to be very two dimensional and closed in while finding tubes open things up and flesh out the performance.Even when transistors get "dimension" many times it increases or decreases with volume so soft portions sound closed in and loud portions as if in a larger space.where this gets weird is when the loud to soft is the very same instrument and I find it very un-natural when that instrument goes from "large room" to "small room' then back again so maybe the "charm" you are looking for

If using a single source in your system,say a CD player, then the connection is a simple CD-to-Headphone amp deal with the only "new" addition a simple switch/interface box having an input from the headphone amp (could even be X-Cans TRS out to switch unit TRS input) that goes to a "one of two" switch,either a toggle or a rotary selector to choose the output path-Stereo RCA jacks for preamp use,TRS jack for headphone use.

I personally like to use a four pole switch for this because I HATE unterminated outputs that with some amps may cause all manner of noise and/or humming so I use four poles of switching for two outputs with the unused output grounding the unused output only.Raises the cost to build with multideck rotaries or 4PDT toggle costing but is the only smart way really.I beleive any addition should not cause as many problems as it fixes

Could you post.......

funny you should ask that because yes,I will post pics in the next week or so on a variation of the device I currently use that I will be offering on a custom build basis but that once posted can easily be copied once the "common sense" of the device is illustrated.Mine is obviously upgraded parts,damped beyond rational thought and uses knobs that go for $20 each but I am a pain in the ass about such things so any "knockoff" could probably be assembled for around $50 using lesser parts

[bennyboy]

The V3 uses plugs for the internal hook up. If you make a 4 pin to male rca, you could just plug in the output you need.

[bennyboy]

bennyboy said:

The V3 uses plugs for the internal hook up. If you make a 4 pin to male rca, you could just plug in the output you need.

here's a pic.

farm1.static.flickr.com/83/205039083_b8545dc29d_o.jpg

[rickcr42]

seems that would be about as inconvenient as it gets if you want to still have headphone capability

[bennyboy]

not for my V3! ;D


farm1.static.flickr.com/80/223018212_980180117e_o.jpg

[rickcr42]

mrarroyo said:

I really wish MF and for that matter the other manufacturers had a trap door or similar to swap the tube. Much easier!

I pretty much think it is a message of "if you have no clue keep you damn fingers out of here jerkweed" and a way to avoid getting sued when some idiot goes poking around just to do it or spills a soda inside then bitches about how the top should never have been open to accidental spills

[derekrumble]

rickcr42 said:

This is just the point. Where should this stereo plug be connected to on the circuit?

Headphone Jack.Would mean unplugging the headphones and then plugging in a TRS plug to RCA Plug adapter that is connected to the amp for preamp use



a bit of a clunky interface in that you need to constantly plug/unplug depending on if you are using it as a headphone amp or a preamp plus you would be limited to either a single input source or again plugging/unplugging.

I have/do at times use a "headphone amp" stage as a preamplifier (more like a line driver due to the output stage) so I whipped up an add-on accesory box to eliminate all that plugging in.Mine cost a frikkin' fortune just in parts considering it is a simple SWITCH BOX because it uses high quality rotary switches for input and output switching,uses high quality RCA jacks for the line inpouts and outputs,has extensive chassis damping plus uses a locking Neutrik for the headphone out but if you want simple and cheap you have a couple of DIY options



Input selector box with RCA inputs and RCA outputs-can be as simple as a DPDT toggle switch for "input 1/input 2" switching to a multiple position rotary that chooses 1-of-6 inputs

Output selector box with RCA input,an RCA line output (preamp use) and a TRS hadphone output jack with a DPDT toggle switch to select between the two.


Combine the two into a single box and add a "break" between the two where you insert the X-Cans

I read the same review where AM from MF was interviewed and he said that you could use the X-CanV3 as a pre-amp if you had the right lead. I have tried this out briefly. I normally use a passive 'pre-amp' based around the 50k log Alps blue I bought from here. So compared to my passive 'pre' the X-CanV3 sounds a bit 'darker', with a less-tight bass. I didn't find it offered a better sound, just different. However, if you use an active pre-amp and you need an upgrade then you may well find that the X-CanV3 does the job well. You will need to sort out some sort of phono socket switching, though, if you have more than one source and don't like swapping plugs. The X-CanV3 works just fine into a normal power amp input without additional attenuation.. the loading seems fine and there is plenty of control range on the pot.

As I said, I only did a brief test and couldn't see any advanatge in my particular system.

Futher, having just added the X-DacV3 to my system... and seeing the similarity between the X-CanV3 and X-10dV3 circuits, I tried putting the X-can between the X-Dac and pre-amp; using the X-Can as an X10 substitute - the result was as above; a diferent, darker quality - but not necessarily better. That's my few cents worth on the topic anyway.

Thanks,

Derek

[skydog]

Derek,

Have you tested as a preamp your X-Can v3 modified? with Russian 6H23P or6H1P tubes? To my mind these mods make real change in sound quality to better (thanks to RockGrotto).

I've tried X-can v3 as you suggested, rickcr42. It works OK (in the simple variant - to integral's inns), the sound has become wider, deeper but a bit messy. And it is clear - the signal goes via preamp of the integral. Well, I still use Sony Ta FA 50 es, and it's his last chance. But there're no power amp inns in it. My friend and I try to make these inns bit cant's find the circuit of this sony or alike seria. If Sony doesn't pass these tests it will go away from my system...

The system also include B&W P-5 speakers, everybody says they need valves. And X-can v3 is really a good start here at this money level I think. Knowing from some experience as a musician and thanks to Cyruss dAD7 CD player + X-CAN v3 + Senns 650 how the music should sound in a system, still in search of improving...

[rickcr42]

My friend and I try to make these inns bit cant's find the circuit of this sony or alike seria. If Sony doesn't pass these tests it will go away from my system...

Can't find the schematic for the amp anywhere and every page that comes up is in German making me guess it is not a model available here in the U.S. butr my best guess is the output stage is most likely a "chip amp" stage.That is monolithic amplifier modules instead of a discretre output though I could be way off base.

If modules then you need to create a break right before the DC Blocking cap at the module input.If a discrete amplifier section then you need to be knowledgeable enough to reverse engineer the signal path flow to find where the output stage driver stage begins.With either the jacks for "preamp section out" and "amplifier section in" could be mounted anywhere on the rear panel where there is both room (looks to be plenty) AND where you will not be introducing hum (away from any AC mains lines) and could either use an RCA plug to RCA plug "jumper" cable to connect the two sections for normal use or even better a DPDT switch that chooses either the original mode (reconnects the front end) or taps the input signal from the new "amplifier inut" jack.

I am not recommending you attempt the mod just posting how one would go about it.voiding warrantees or possibly destroying perfectly good amps is not something i would recommend

[uofmtiger]

Would mean unplugging the headphones and then plugging in a TRS plug to RCA Plug adapter that is connected to the amp for preamp use

Why not use a 1/4" Male Stereo to Two 1/4" Female Stereo Adapter and leave them both plugged in at the same time?

[rickcr42]

Why not use a 1/4" Male Stereo to Two 1/4" Female Stereo Adapter and leave them both plugged in at the same time?

SQ,signal purity.Anything connected in parallel will interact with the primary output which could go from inconsequential to very nasty so not a really good idea unless the only option

[medved]

Hello there! I use X-CANS V3 as a preamp for over half a year already and it is an OK preamp. I mean I heard MUCH better preamps (but good preamps cost no less than 1.5k), and I got it used for 250 bucks, and there is nothing around twice the price that bests it.
Converting it to a preamp is really easy! I cut the pre-out RCA jacks from the board, and soldered to them Kimber PBJ (left-ground-right) which goes to the back of the board and is soldered to the SK7 socket contacts. No need to unplug the front phones socket. No need to drill the chassis. Thats all, really.
But you might need all the tweaks, however - as a preamp it responds dramatically to better components. If feelin' lasy about it, at least change the output caps to non-polar Black Gate, pull out 10uf input caps and short their board connections, and do some tube rolling.
If you want REAL convenience with it, go to Welborne labs and consider gettin' their Remote Controlled Stepped Attenuator boards with source swithing. It will make X-CANS V3 a normal remote controlled linestage, and it's much better than ALPS volume pot.

[gurra1980]

This thread caught my interest, I have actually used my x-can v3 as preamp to my integrated rotel ra-06 with very good results I get the tube sound and I haven't heard anything getting worse, the reason I'm surprised that nothing sounds worse is because I just use it from the headphone jack to RCA through integrated.

Now I wonder if someone know why everyone are talking about all these mods, just use headphone out? I think it sounds great. There isn't any risks to do this?

[gurra1980]

The money, a tube buffer is quite expensive I guess. I just tryed to put the x-can in the signalpath for fun and noticed that the sound got smoother and with a wider soundstage and better bass, so now I use my x-can both for headphones and for speakers