Relative Value of XCAN v3 Mods

[bassdude]

PinkFloyd has suggested I ask you all about the relative value of the mods to the XCAN v3.

I would like to know what the relative level of performance is of the moded XCAN v3 - do the mods take it to a level equivalent to the PPX3 Slam, WooAudio 2, or Raptor, or does it take it to a lower level such as that of the MAD Purist+ HD, or Laconic EC-01, or WooAudio 3.

And... I guess the related question is... if my total investment in the moded XCAN v3 is say... $500 - is it likely (or even possible) to resell it for that price?

Can anyone offer any perspective to how these mods compare to more expensive amps?

Thanks for your help,
Bassdude

[rickcr42]

This is a totally valid question that I wish I could answer but having zero time with any of the X-Cans amps.......

Generally I see a boatload of very expensive mods in audio products that not only do not add anything other than the "PC" look,that is where all the lemmings use the same parts in every product then proclaim all "improved" when the reality is they would have made as much progress pissing on the money then tossing it to the trash.

Pretty does not always mean "sounds" good since one is visual and the other an audible medium but that does not seem to matter much on balance.

If by "improved/modded" you mean the mods described on this site then I would defer to Mike who's ears I trust on such things.
He has been the single biggest enthusiast of UK based "budget" amps on the planet and has over the years reported results of his personal tests with nothing to gain at the end other than sharing his findings.Findings that to my knowledge have been universally agreed with across the board.And these usually not being the FOTM (flavor of the month) amps,the results posted just to do it because he wanted to share his findings and get some feedback from others doing similiar work

Knowing a bit about what is and is not actual improvement in a general fashion I would go out on a limb and say Mike improves the areas where a major manufacturer must cut corners in order to remain at a certain price point in the market place.A price point the precludes $500 in chassis work,$300 in designer caps,$200 in just the right color matchups on the baord to satisfy the "ooh looks good bet it sounds good" crowd who NEED to see the insides and NEED to see certain parts or no matter what the sonics will have no interest.

Those areas are generic capacitor upgrades to lower ESR parts,totally valid upgrade path,adding bypasses where needed in his opinion but not arbitrary "throw a cap at it" rather after listening to what is worth adding and what is worth discarding,improving the "weak link" found in almost all amps of reasonable prices,the coupling caps and all at more than reasonable in price for parts based solely on performance (not ugly,just not BEEEEEEUTIFUL part )

www.rock-grotto.co.uk/v3upgradekit.html


common sense budget upgrade of a budget amp that I beleive even never having heard the amp would be hard to beat at the total price of and either not be a kit amp or be priced in the same range BUT still require an upgrade path to shitcan the generic parts and replace them with sound audio choices.

Two of the amps on your list go WAY off the ranch in price range and you are on your own there also man.There are reviews at Head-fi for these amps but be aware there is a fanboy network there with zero crossover from the RSA to SP camps the likes of which is not seen anywhere else in the audio world so read everything,weigh against reality and other reads then decide what you beleive is true or a true value.It is personal with both sides and it IS warfare so forewarned dude.

also don't be fooled by popularity contest selections from a group that changes amps as fast as some change their underwhere where last months "you gotta have this amp" becomes a oice of shit once the novelty wears off and there is a "new thing" taking the crown of "super amp" or where the rest have zero idea what it even is that sounds good and will tell you in so manyb words they have no idea then argue with you for a month on why you are wrong

[bassdude]

Yes... the predispositions and biases of the various "camps" on Headfi are readily apparent - and I do discount them heavily - as is clearly warranted.

And... those folks do resemble "lemings." or "penguins" in their mass migrations from one product of the moment to the next... "thrashing and trashing" whatever is "out of favor" at the moment. And there is a veritable abundance of "self-appointed experts" in about any topic you might want to approach.

I'm sure some enterprising "socioligist" could do a facinating "study" of the group interaction if they were so inclined. No doubt it would make a great doctoral thesis.

But... I'm really only interested in whether the cost of PinkFloyd's XCAN v3 upgrades is likely to result in an amp that will perform equivalent (or close) to those generally considered to be the current "standards of excellence" on Headfi (which have maintained such status now for at least the last couple of years).

I'm satisfied that the upgrades, will improve the XCAN's SQ by a substantial margin, I just want to have some comfort that the improvement is well beyond the investment, and close enough to those competitors I mentioned that I would not likely feel compelled to eventually sell the XCAN and buy those much more expensive competitors. If I'm going to find there is still a great disparity, then I should probably avoid the investment in the upgrades, and just opt for one of those competitors.

Surely someone has some idea of how the moded XCAN v3 compares to those expensive competitors; and whether in this context it makes sense to upgrade the XCAN.

Thanks,
Bassdude

[rickcr42]

All understandable concerns.Doing a "quickie" search I came to this page that is to me a nice review done by what is obviously a regular Joe so worded in a manner understandable by the non techno-geek audio enthusiast

www.camerahobby.com/Misc_Xcan.htm

another from a price concious audio enthusiast

202.186.86.35/audio/story.asp?file=/2005/6/2/audiofile/02xcan&sec=audiofile


This one is a professional review but Wes has been around for a while and my take is he is no audio snob who dismisses everything below $10k as beneath notice and has over the years pointed out various sleepers,that is value/performance products so worthy of a read at least

www.onhifi.com/product/musicalfidelity_xcan_v3.htm

As far as resale value goes that is iffy at best and relies not on quality as much as what is in demand at the time.what makes large scale mass market audio products a bargain is the very thing that keeps the price down on the resale value many times so it si always a balance between how many are out there,the demand and if the price is slashed regularly for brand new in the box amps.The cominbinations sets the market value and there is never any way to know what will increase in value later,what will remain close to even and what products can't be given away for free though I doubt a product as well conceived would fall into the latter.

I always thought the "Can" chassis to be an exceptionally cool one but at the same time not one I would have in my home system.The round face just seems to rub me the wrong way when it is placed with other devices that are more wide than tall though squat shaped componants would work well in combination.

the new box keeps the classic silver & black look but in a more universal,to me easier to integrate style that would fit any system and not be out of place yet if all alone on a shelf would make its own statement without going to "gaudy" as some of the recent "look at me" headphone amps seem to aspire to (and with a price tag to match this casing ! ).

I like my stuff to look good but do not feel a simple headphone amplifier should outclass and outshine everything else so I am more of a clean lines/form follows function type and maybe why I am kind of fond of the Brit amps over the recent offerings from Asia or the "bloatware" amps of the U.S.
I realise trying to get SE Triodes into a small package is a bitch but considering most use a SS rectifier there is NO reason for the huge footprint of many except for wanting to be the center of the universe.


I would love to see the definitive schemo of this amp so I could make more than generalised comments.Maybe I can track one down and let fly my thoughts.Thoughts that do not need to know "make and model" to have an idea how a thing will sound just by the topology choices.

my gut says this amp would be hard to better at the price point,is an easy upgrade and especially so with the increased chassis area which allows for larger film caps (a major point considering higher voltage caps SOUND better than lower voltage film caps and that means big) though maybe not the best choice for very low impedance cans like Grados or the Sony V-6 due to the high voltage gain

wish I could be more help

[PinkFloyd]

As to the resale value, well....... I sold a modded V3 on ebay a while ago with a starting bid of 99p and it ended up going for £350 (£100 over and above the retail price) If the mods are done professionally then, sure, of course it will add value as the mods improve the SQ quite considerably.

As discussed in email I don't blow my own trumpet which is why I suggested you ask here, I know there are a few guys here who have modded theirs / had them modded so it's only a matter of time before they chip in with their impressions.

My ethos has always been "Maximum sound for your pound" and you can be assured that I'm not in the habit of flogging dead horses. The reason I am so passionate about the X-Series of headphone amps is they are so good and represent excellent value for money, they also respond VERY well when you fit lower ESR caps and the improvement in SQ (not "difference" but "improvement") is very noticeable and not like an interconnect upgrade where the law of diminishing returns kick in big time.

These amps keep their value, just have a look on ebay and you'll see £129 rrp V2's fetching £150 and stock V3's also going for very close to their new price. The reason? They're good amps and good always holds it value irrespective of fads and fashions.

I never used to charge for these mods and did them for people @ parts cost, that's how passionate I was about these amps. I enjoy working with them because they are so responsive to tweaking..... not placebo "oooh look at the fancy big black gate caps" improvements but "real world" improvements that are so noticeable your jaw will drop to the floor and goose pimples will appear on the back of your neck.

I can't put a "value" on this but can say that the mods are well worth doing, you certainly won't be taking a backwards step and the price is such that you certainly won't have to take out a second mortgage to perform the mods. If you're good with a soldering iron then these mods are guaranteed to bring out the best in your V3 for very little cost, plus you get the satisfaction that you've done it yourself!

I wish I could be of more help but I haven't heard those amps you refer to in your opening post.

All the best.

Mike.

[bassdude]

Thanks for your perspectives and guidance re: PinkFloyd's XCAN mods.

Just so you know - I am an MF X Series believer. I've got the XCAN v3, the XPSU v3, the X10 v3, and the XDAC v3 - and this combo produces truly exceptional SQ into my HD650/Cardas combo, or my RS-1's.

I'm just wanting to confirm the upgrades are the right investment - and... I'm pretty well there.

I'm thinking I'm just going to "do it" and try my hand at "fitting caps." I'm a novice DIY guy, but it looks easy enough, if I'm careful in handling a soldering iron. Thought I'd get a low power unit - so as not to risk burning anything accidently, and just take care to "do it right." Maybe I'll practice a bit on some Radio Shack circuit boards and pieces before I touch the real thing.

We'll see.

Thanks,
Roger

[bassdude]

Well... you guys have convinced me to try it!

I'm now waiting for the "goose bumps on the back of my neck."

Actually - I'm awaiting receipt of Mike's kit, which I'll attempt to install without screwing it up, as soon as it arrives.

And... I'll let you know... how it all turns out.

Hoping for the best. It sounds great in it's stock form - and... I trust it will soon sound "greater."

Why can't I just "leave well enough alone?"

Bassdude

[PinkFloyd]

Hi Bassdude, your kit was shipped this afternoon so will be with you in 3 to 5 days. I'm off for a few days tomorrow but will catch up with you when I get back next week.

All the best,

Mike.

[thegreatroberto]

FWIW,I've just modded an X-10D.............Changed all caps,new quad socket and poped ina spare set of Russian valves.
The transformation was "night and day".
I used to have an X-10D (in stock form) was was quite unimpressed,so sold it.However, I bought one cheapish on Ebay (from HK would you believe) and gave it the Mike treatment ( FM caps and new polys as well) The improvement was immediate and over the first week got better..............

I'm so impressed , I'm going to get 2 more to mod for my other 2 sources (tuner and turntable).......

[bassdude]

Sounds interesting!

Forgive my ignorance... but what is the MF X-10D?

I assume it is the older version of the "tube buffer" - prior to the X-10 v3 with the soldered Nu-Vistor tubes?

I guess I could mod the caps, etc. in the X-10 v3, but I'd likely have to remove the Nu-Vistor tubes, and install tube sockets to roll the tubes.

Anyway, it does seem to provide a slight improvement in the SQ - a bit more detail, warmth and atmosphere.

We'll see how it goes with my XCAN v3, before I "tinker" any more.

Bassdude

[manic]

Could not get to this thread any earlier. PinkFloyd modded my x-can 3; the details with pictures are on an associated thread attached to this part of the forum, together with my comments. The modding did make a significant difference to the sound at what I believe was a reasonable price when you consider the cost of pricer pieces of kit. I know this is very subjective and I have not owned any of the other amps you list. My various components range from more than 10 years (plus) so a different/enhanced piece of kit will stand out. Friends with a (reconditioned) GS Solo, Naim, and vintage Earmax have tried my recapped V3 and consider that it comes very close in many respects to amps at twice the price. The best recommendation I can make is that the sound enhancement has encouraged me to delve into my CD and record collection and listen more frequently. I don't think you will be disappointed. I will be interested to hear your comments.

X-cans sell well in any condition. I sold my 5 year old V1 for £10 less than I paid for it. Reconditioned versions sell well and like PinkFloyd I have seen kit selling for more than the new price. Like you I researched the options before I took the plunge and was persuaded by the strong feedback on this forum.

[bassdude]

Well it's done... and...

Wow!

You all were so right - as you already know!

The new caps make a huge improvement - much deeper, bigger, tighter bass with more impact; warmer, fuller, more organic, textured mids; and more extended, detailed, clear, highs - and that's just initial impressions prior to burn in, and with the stock JAN Phillips tubes (which I like with the Senns because of their detail and brilliance). The HD650's sound very much like the Grados with this amp now, except they have a bigger sound, and bigger bass - but, they're approaching the detail and clarity of the Grados.

And... the Russian 6H23N-EB's provide an even greater improvement in the SQ.

And... it really is a very simple and easy mod... even for a CPA/MBA with no electronic experience.

I may even be able to abandon my search for much better equipment now. I'm certainly not inclined to pay the big bucks for more "high-end" stuff - when I likely have 90%+ of their SQ now.

If the folks out there realized how great this amp is, especially with these mods, and how much it improves the sound of the Senns - they'd all have them.

This is certainly a no-brainer mod!

Thanks for your encouragement and help.

Bassdude

[PinkFloyd]

bassdude said:

The new caps make a huge improvement - much deeper, bigger, tighter bass with more impact; warmer, fuller, more organic, textured mids; and more extended, detailed, clear, highs - and that's just initial impressions prior to burn in, and with the stock JAN Phillips tubes (which I like with the Senns because of their detail and brilliance). The HD650's sound very much like the Grados with this amp now, except they have a bigger sound, and bigger bass - but, they're approaching the detail and clarity of the Grados.

Nice

And... the Russian 6H23N-EB's provide an even greater improvement in the SQ.

I thought you couldn't detect much difference with them over the JAN philips 6922?

And... it really is a very simple and easy mod... even for a CPA/MBA with no electronic experience.

Did the instructions help / could they be simplified or are they about right?

I may even be able to abandon my search for much better equipment now. I'm certainly not inclined to pay the big bucks for more "high-end" stuff - when I likely have 90%+ of their SQ now.

If truth be told you probably have 99.9% of the sound now. The big BEASTS may sway you on the placebo front but if you go in blindfolded I think you may find the V3 fares VERY well

If the folks out there realized how great this amp is, especially with these mods, and how much it improves the sound of the Senns - they'd all have them.

I have to agree and which is why I have spent years championing these great amps with no other reason other than pure passion for good music reproduction. I'm glad the kit has helped you get more out of your music

Thanks for your encouragement and help.

It was a pleasure

[bassdude]

Hi, Mike... et al...

To answer your questions:

1. While I do like the stock tubes, the Reflector/Saratov 6H23N-EB's do improve the sound a bit over the stock JAN Phillips 6922's - seems to have a bit deeper bass, and maybe less harsh highs. But... I'm not sure it's enough better to justify the $50 price. The caps make the big improvement in the XCAN v3, and the tubes are a bit of "icing on the cake."

2. The instructions are fine. I had no problem following them, and the mod is a breeze... even for a "non-techy." It took me about 3 hours to complete the mods - and that's for someone who has never touched a soldering iron, and "doesn't have a clue" about what he's doing. The only suggestion... I might offer... is to take all the questions I had, and include them with the answers, either on your web site, or with your hardcopy instructions. I'm sure, they're the same FAQ's you get from eveyone contemplating the mod - so you might as well answer them once, rather than having to repeat the answers.

The mod is well worth it. It takes the XCAN v3 to a level that makes it unnecessary to keep upgrading amps. And... it performs equally well with both the Senns (high impedence) and Grados (low impedence) - but, it really improves the sound of the Senns, bringing them to life, much more like the Grados, without their formerly laid-back sound.

Thanks again,
Roger