First Vinyl Setup

[senj]

I'm becoming increasingly aware of music being extreamly undynamic. I was listening to some Coheed and Cambria last night, and it just lacked any sort of impact, which is a real shame because i love their 1st two albums.

I guess i began to notice it more when i brought my Ergos and started to listen to music more critically. I love minimalistic music purely because it hardly suffers from compression and can give me the impact i want, but there are a fair few artists which i would love to hear in Vinyl. Radiohead for example, i'd love to hear without the compression, and Sigur Ros to name a few.

Can Vinyl give me this? And what setup would be best for me? I'd like it to be comparable with my current setup if thats possible.

I've got(or will have soon):

(old)California Audio Labs DX-1 CD Player--->QED MB45--->Ergos 2

So basically something that is as good as the DX-1 or that would be good enough for the rest of my setup.

I've done a little research and have decided i'm probably going to get a second hand turntable off ebay. Something fairly cheap, and vintage. I'm looking at a Sansui SR-222 and a GOLDRING GL75 currently,

Cheers for any advice.

Senj

[bullpup]

I would suggest you consider a Thorens td 150/160. Read the following article then buy one from ebay. I did.

www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/thorenstd150.html

[senj]

Cheers! Looks like spare parts are easy to come by too. Whats a fair price for a 150/160? What arm do you suggest and what about a phono stage?

[bullpup]

Hi there I think I paid around £40 a couple of years ago so I would say £50 -£60 should get you a nice one with standard arm, cartridge and cover.

Once you have finished setting it up then think about tweeking. It does sound very good as standard. This is also worth reading about further tweeks:
www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm

I don't know about phonostages I use a dpa one but you could also ask here. Also worth bearing in mind that a number of older integrated amps e.g. Audiolab 8000a had reasonable phono stages...

Have fun

[XTRProf]

Hi there,

Although the td150 n 160 are very good, imvho, the td125 is better. The later deck is more stable in the suspension. There is also a 126 which is supposed to be improved and can play 78 shellac records as well. However, spare parts availability I'm not too sure.

[senj]

Cheers. I was considering going round charity shops to find myself a table to fix up just to get a taste but...

I found an old turntable in my attic, along with around 50 records. I remember messing around with this one 15 years ago but i thought it was long gone. Nope it's been following my family around for the last 12 years and hasn't been used. I'm surprise and delighted it's not been thrown away:)

It's a National Panasonic F.G.SERVO SL-18 and I'll post some pics when some SD memory arrives for my new camera. I know next to nothing about it and a google search brings up only a few threads. I assume it's similar to the Technics SL-18 just under different name.

It needs a belt, and i might need to lubricate the motor, which seems to be running ok from what i can tell at this point. Don't know what belt to get, shall i get a technic one from ebay and hope for the best?

I still need to get a phono preamp too, something around £50 i guess would be good.

[XTRProf]

senj said:

I still need to get a phono preamp too, something around £50 i guess would be good.

For that kind of money, Nad, Clearaudio basic, Project and even a Thorens can be considered. If can stretch a bit the mm only Bellari VP129 that I own will also be a good choice. Just listen and see what u like best for ur taste.

[fanboi]

Be aware that just changing to a vinyl source will not necessarily give you the dynamics you seek.
A lack of dynamics due to compression (provided we are not talking of compressed PC files like mp3 etc) is a function of the mastering and production and can be damaged just as easily at that stage on either vinyl or CD - if the engineer pushes for too much loudness (which is common) then dynamics will suffer. No recording media is immune to this.
Maximum dynamic range on vinyl can also be affected by the engineer trying to cram too much playtime on one LP - which is why most "hot" DJ mixes are on 12" singles though they are often 45 rpm also which is a whole nother thing (although related)
There have been some discussions and some demo tracks on youtube with regard to the effects of the "loudness war" and compression at the mastering stage affecting dynamic range but the basics are greater overall loudness means less range from high to low and so peaks lose their impact.

[Deleted]

if the engineer pushes for too much loudness (which is common) then dynamics will suffer. No recording media is immune to this.

I have quite a few 48KHZ LPCM Promo Music Videos that sound sensational initially, but the record companies have unfortunately gone the loudness route to sell the subsequent releases. I am still trying to work out a way in Soundforge 9 to undo some of the damage , and make them more listenable.

SandyK

[canjunkie]

senj said:

I still need to get a phono preamp too, something around £50 i guess would be good.

The Cambridge Audio Phono stages are also pretty highly thought of at between GBP40 & GBP60.

A friend of mine uses the 640 with a Rega P3 & it sounds pretty good, we both prefer it to his Project.

Getting decent flat vinyl, decent pressing and a decently engineered recording is another matter - I've just about given up

[XTRProf]

canjunkie said:

senj said:

I still need to get a phono preamp too, something around £50 i guess would be good.

The Cambridge Audio Phono stages are also pretty highly thought of at between GBP40 & GBP60.

A friend of mine uses the 640 with a Rega P3 & it sounds pretty good, we both prefer it to his Project.

Getting decent flat vinyl, decent pressing and a decently engineered recording is another matter - I've just about given up

Ya, another good choice there in the Cambridge 640P. However, getting good vinyl and good sound is still available when u get the audiophile version of the same vinyl. Flatness is either a hit or miss affair and depends on how the boody vinyls are transported to the retail shops as all vinyls when leaving the factory are basically flat to pass QC. Only downside is the $$$$$$.

[fanboi]

For my preference I believe the TCC 754 from www.phonopreamps.com (they have cheaper models - this one is also a line-level passive pre with 3 inputs using relay switching) to be better than the Cambridge 640 or the NAD or Project.
At a higher price point it is very hard to go past the Gram Amp 2 or 2 SE from GSPaudio.

[senj]

fanboi said:

Be aware that just changing to a vinyl source will not necessarily give you the dynamics you seek.

Cheers for the advice. I've got a few nice old LPs that may play if i'm lucky and give them a good clean, they are from the 70s, so it will be interesting to hear them. Quite a few of the bands i like release limited edition Vinyl, which if nothing else have amazing art covers. So even if they are still compressed, i'd still like the ability to collect and play records. Doesn't the format limit compression though? Thats what a load of people are saying.

I just picked up a Harman-Kardon receiver model 930 off ebay so i might pick up a more expensive separte phone preamp later, or now if the receiver doesn't have a working/decent one. I'm setting the 930 as a kinda holiday project, wish me luck!

[lini]

senj said:

(...) It's a National Panasonic F.G.SERVO SL-18 and I'll post some pics when some SD memory arrives for my new camera. I know next to nothing about it and a google search brings up only a few threads. I assume it's similar to the Technics SL-18 just under different name. (...)

Yup, that's the semi-automatic (iirc) brother of the fully manual Technics SL-20 - so, if you can't find a belt for your National Panasonic/Technics SL-18, just get a belt for an SL-20...

Oh, and there also were other Matsushita models which appeared under both labels, btw - e.g. the SL-110. Should have been mainly around 1974, when Matsushita had come up with the new Technics brand name for hifi stuff... On some of their products you can also find the Technics brand name preceded by the National Panasonic logo or with "by Panasonic" written beneath in smaller lettering...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[senj]

There are few places that stock SL-18 and SL-20 belts but a quick google search brings up this seller in the US plus a few others:
members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=bob31411
who says a 23.6 inch belt will fit a large number of turntables, i wonder if it won't be cheaper and easier to grap a generic 23.6 inch flat belt?

[fanboi]

Might like to check this info and price v what you else you can find.
www.turntableneedles.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=10050

[senj]

Thanks.

Seems a good site. Free worldwide shipping on belts and needles and advice on setting up. Just brought a couple of belts for a tenner.

[senj]

We all like pics:











Looks the part:

[Deleted]

Importance of correct alignment.

The attached comment may be of interest. It is from a reply to a DiyAudio thread :
www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119207&perpage=25&pagenumber=2


"Also, records, because of the very mechanical nature of the medium, tends to have more phase issues than digital, and I have found creates more sound stage illusions. Slightly misaligned needles can massivly change the percieved depth and width of the soundstage. I find changes in both VTA and azimuth can even move the performers front and back. Also keep in mind that a brighter presentation, with more presence, will sound more upfront, while the opposite is true of the opposite. If a recording has reduced presence, it can sound very deep.
One example I show people is an old, MONO!!!!, louis armstrong record I have which has a drum solo that somehow suddenly moves far stage right, and not just right, to the back and right. It was a mistake in the cutting process that wouldn't effect mono needles much, but for whatever reason throws off stereo needles. It is easily repeatable, and is true of both of my copies of this record. While listening, it sounds very cool, the effect, one might even think its supposed to be there, but when you realize that this is an old mono recording, you realize its an accidental artifact. My point is not that records are a bad flawed format which give false impressions of the soundstage, just that it can very easily from very small changes."

[lini]

senj: Looks like its still in pretty good condition - nice...

Oh, and it might be good for you to know that the Hitachi VM cartridge on it in fact is an Audio Technica. I don't know for sure whether that Hitachi rebadged version complies to the colour scheme AT used for this cartridge family, though - but if yes, then the red one is the basic concial needle ATS10 which would make the cartridge an AT10.

NOS needles for this series are still available at quite a few places and comparatively inexpensive, so you can pretty easily upgrade and turn your (supposed) AT10 to an AT11E or AT12E using the elliptical needles ATS11E and ATS12 or even into an AT12S using the Shibata needle ATS12S.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[senj]

Your right.



I didn't even think to replace the stylus, that didn't occur to me.

Brought a AT-95E which i assume will be ok.

[lini]

Oh, then - in that case I'd suggest to buy another headshell and mount the AT95E on that one, while leaving the AT10 on the original headshell, as I'd deem it nicer to to have a genuine late-70s-cartridge on the original headshell of a genuine late 70s turntable...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[Deleted]

Hi,
Thought I'd throw my pennies worth in.
Just to give substance to my opinion I'll reveal now that I spent nearly twenty years working, mostly, in the specialist hifi arena in the UK. Some time was spent retailing total #@*P! and a bit more with Sony.
I've always been an analogueholic, but after too many years with CD and a poor (wife freindly) turntable I finally rebelled.
I returned to a similar set up I had in the past.....
Manticore mantra, Alphason XenonMCS, ATOC9. Only the cartridge is brand new, the others were purchased dirt cheap, serviced and, and as someone else mentioned, VERY carefully set up.
I firmly beleive this setup, even at retail prices, performs way beyond its price tag(s) and recommend it very highly.
If you can't get the dynamics your after from a combo. like this, then I don't think you ever will.

[senj]

cgi.ebay.co.uk/manticore-mantra-turntable-no-arm_W0QQitemZ260223073894QQihZ016QQcategoryZ3283QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Theres a Manticore turntable going in Edinburgh, which is where i live. If it's going cheap then why not eh? What kind of price would be wise?

It's a beautiful piece of kit.

[Deleted]

Just had a peak at the one you spotted. Looks good in the photo, it's also the later model as given away by the brass platter support ring (older version had 3 brass studs). Newer is marginally better sound-wise.

It's sporting a "Rega cut" armboard, meaning you can fit any arm from Rega, Manticore, Roksan, some Origin Live and any re-badged Rega RB250 or 300 (Michell, Manticore M8, Nad etc.). These last mentioned arms are also upgradable if you so wish later.

If you need a different fit an appropriate replacement is VERY easy to make yourself, as I did for my Alphason arm (arm fitting template is essential).

Cartridge? start with the incredible Audio Technica 95 at about £20. You'll be spending over £100 to substantially beat it!

Price for the deck can vary from £30 to £200 depending on if/what arm is fitted and who's looking. Do not settle for a shabby one. You just missed a tasty teak finish one, but don't rush, they pop up with reasonble frequency, if lucky you could bag a bargain.

Hope that helps.