Vinyl pressing shortcomings ?

[Deleted]

An interesting discussion on why the inner tracks of a vinyl pressing may sound duller than the outer tracks.
SandyK

www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1441862#post1441862

[rickcr42]

I'll take 'em over digital any day and if that was a wrry point for me would go to the already addressed forty years ago "fix" nd get a linear tracking tonearm or one with a good ant-skating mechanism,

seems to me way too many folks are anal about something that just SOUNDS GOOD and has a large amount of humans who enjoy it so set out as a personal mission (vendetta ? Misery loving company ?) to tell others why it sounds like crap even IF their ears tell them another story entirely.The worst part is they ALWAYS back up their side with "the facts" but never just listening and evaluating and for me it is the spec whoes who will be the death of good sounding gear yet ;D

[rickcr42]

oh yeah.

compression.Also used with digital because you can NOT go over digital 0dB.

digital does not gradually distort or gradually run out of steam/headroom/dynamic range like analog but is instead a "Go/No go" medium.That is the top end.

the bottom ? The low level; details analog is famous for reproducing (and wqhy digital has always seemed "unfinihed" to me) ?

Loses bit to the point thwy need to ADD NOISE to decorrelate the signal or you would hear it CLEARLY.

I personally would rather have small sounds fall back into the noise as they do in the real world (ambient noise) rather than just go away because there are not enough "bits" to sample it accurately.TRUE dynamics are not an on/off switch but a living breathing creature that ones and zeroes just don't get because they have no understanding of 1.5,1.0023,3.6.......

humans are analog creatures,robots are digital beings and as we all know need a HUMAN to do anything worth a shit

[Deleted]

Rick
I didn't pass judgement, only passed it on to let others decide for themselves. You may have noticed that little phono preamp circuit that I posted, and Allan's comments about how good a CD
made while using it sounded. Yes, vinyl transferred to CD/DVD using appropiate methods, even without resorting to 24 bit 96KHZ mastering can often surpass the majority of commercial CD pressings.
However, vinyl can also sound bloody woeful on discs with too many tracks crammed on to it.
Alex

[rickcr42]

sandyk said:

Rick
I didn't pass judgement, only passed it on to let others decide for themselves. You may have noticed that little phono preamp circuit that I posted, and Allan's comments about how good a CD
made while using it sounded. Yes, vinyl transferred to CD/DVD using appropiate methods, even without resorting to 24 bit 96KHZ mastering can often surpass the majority of commercial CD pressings.
However, vinyl can also sound bloody woeful on discs with too many tracks crammed on to it.
Alex

SLOW DOWN BRO !

was a general observation and not directed at any actual known "humans"......especially you my love

[Deleted]

Rick
What do you know about Realtime Digital L.P. ?
Years ago, I had an L.P that was supposedly recorded to the master, digitally. I can't remember the process used , but it sounded damn good ! It was right near the end of the mainstream LP era.
SandyK

[XTRProf]

Ha, ha, I'm a vinyl and digital loving guy. So no need force shield on here.

Actually, both medium have their merits n digital is getting better and better everyday. Now with the HD DVD out of the way, there will even be higher resolution digital to follow thru Dolby True HD and DTS Master Sound. At this stage, the vinyl still has that slight edge in the "third dimension". I will let u guys figure what that is.

[Deleted]

At this stage, the vinyl still has that slight edge in the "third dimension". I will let u guys figure what that is.

XTRProf
I presume you mean the "Twilight Zone " ?
You are having yourself on if you really believe that Vinyl can outperform ANY area of a genuine high resolution format if properly recorded. BTW, anyone who thinks Dolby Digital (at it's highest bitrate) fits into that area is deluding themselves. ;D
However a good Vinyl recording, even with it's inferior dynamic range, mediocre channel separation, and poor signal to noise ratio, can usually sound better than many commercially recorded CDs. A good half speed mastered LP may have a frequency response to >30KHZ.
SandyK

[XTRProf]

sandyk said:

At this stage, the vinyl still has that slight edge in the "third dimension". I will let u guys figure what that is.

XTRProf
I presume you mean the "Twilight Zone " ?
You are having yourself on if you really believe that Vinyl can outperform ANY area of a genuine high resolution format if properly recorded. BTW, anyone who thinks Dolby Digital (at it's highest bitrate) fits into that area is deluding themselves. ;D
However a good Vinyl recording, even with it's inferior dynamic range, mediocre channel separation, and poor signal to noise ratio, can usually sound better than many commercially recorded CDs. A good half speed mastered LP may have a frequency response to >30KHZ.
SandyK

No, the newer Dolby True HD and DTS Master sound uncompressed hirez tracks as used in the hidef dvds.

Yup, provided the analog master tapes are at 30 ips. There are some at 15 ips. The Mofi, Nautilus and some CBS LPs at half speed mastering are just wonderful when played back on a hiend TT like the Clearaudio Statement, SME, Walker and the Ausie Continuum with Cobra tonenarm. No digital comes close except probably the DCS at 192 24 bits or DSD. I have not heard a DCS yet, btw, although someone had an Edgar Plus Dac b4.

[Deleted]

No digital comes close except probably the DCS at 192 24 bits or DSD.

XTRProf
You must be listening with the wrong kind of gear. Perhaps you just prefer the smooth sound of vinyl through full range speakers ?
The majority of LPs have a dynamic range around 50dB. Very few cartridges would have a channel separation much more than 40dB. As for signal to noise ratio.... Yes, the latest versions of DTS, and even DD, when used on BluRay have potential, but still are inferior to LPCM. As for judging the SQ of DVD-A and SACD, very few affordable players are able to do them justice. DVD-A and SACD is most often added to a DVD player as a marketing gimmick, and a good CD player and DAC combination can often rival, or better, the sound of universal players if playing a CD recorded from the same master as the SACD/DVD-A was.

SandyK

[XTRProf]

sandyk said:

No digital comes close except probably the DCS at 192 24 bits or DSD.

You must be listening with the wrong kind of gear. Perhaps you just prefer the smooth sound of vinyl through full range speakers ?

I dun think so as many masters are still 48 or 96khz 24 bits. I juz dunno why the studios still process at this rezs? For some peanut saving? Monkees, where r u?

[rickcr42]

sandyk said:

Rick
What do you know about Realtime Digital L.P. ?
Years ago, I had an L.P that was supposedly recorded to the master, digitally. I can't remember the process used , but it sounded damn good ! It was right near the end of the mainstream LP era.
SandyK

I remember the discs and also the sound which was explosive with a very deep and tight bottom end (which tells me the vinyl disc itself is more than capable because it WAS the recorded medium) but there was a lack of "air" around small notes so while great for pissing off the neighbors and showing off your system at volume and would give your system a real workout,not as "natural" as an all analog signal path using tape masters

Also,if I am not mistaken the digital interface was 12 bits/2-channels and used video tape as the recording medium

[rickcr42]

Actually, both medium have their merits n digital is getting better and better everyday

And that from a medium touted as "perfect" right out of the gate ;D

here we are thirty years later still trying to make this perfect medium sound more analog instead of admitting it may have its place alongside but should never have pre-empted analog totally.

Zero OS DACS,Tube Buffers,fancy filtering techniques,gimme a GD break

Now with the HD DVD out of the way, there will even be higher resolution digital to follow thru Dolby True HD and DTS Master Sound

Yup.Now we can have 5.1 or 7.1 channels of special effects instead of good music.It is a "gimmick" to get the audiophile to buy into multichannel audio and is NO different than earlier attempts from Quadraphonics to audio delay lines to hafler dynaquad (the most natural bTW being that it ADDS NOTHING)

plus do we REALLY want the guys that are currently mucking up two channel sound having even MORE knobs under their control ?

We are headed more to music as "FX" thn music "live" and that is a damn shame

However a good Vinyl recording, even with it's inferior dynamic range, mediocre channel separation, and poor signal to noise ratio, can usually sound better than many commercially recorded CDs. A good half speed mastered LP may have a frequency response to >30KHZ

Dynamic range is not the be all end all feature of music for several reason.

for one we don't really WANT to go from sounds so small they fall back into the ambient noise of the world at large,sounds so small we strain to hear them then the next moment be rocked back in our seats from the loud peak event.How many here wish they had a damn COMPRESSOR on their DVD player to equalize the soft and loud sounds and so they don't have to jump for the damn remote volume control (BTW I HAVE and USE a compressor in my AV rig ) ?

how many feel going to the movies is an ear splitting experience BECAUSE of the dynamic range ? Wishing they would just bring up the bottom and bang down the top a bit so you could enjoy the damn event ?

As for upper octave extension the only way digital even gets close is by using "tricks" like oversampling/upsampling and even then you still need a brick wall filter if your system has the capability to pass the ultrasonic signals on to your tweeters


Analog is a natural progresssion so any distortions or any frequency response rolloffs are of the gradual variety hence less obtrusive.Digital is more abrupt being a "go/no go" one or zero condition thus again our ears tell us something is not right even IF we can't exactly say what it is in words (or on the bench usually)

does this mean I dislike digital ?

HELL NO !

I use digital recorded mediums WAY more than analog but I just like the ability to make the choice and the industry is not about that.They are more a "take it or leave it jerkoff" industry and so rather than offer recording in all mediums just decided it was time to KILL the LP and only offer the Cd which is gradually moving to "download only" and you can suck ass or warm up the printer if you want any cover art.

all about econics and selling the product for the same or more loot while lowering production cost thus more profit and worse more profit for a seriously lacking medium if after thirty years of the CD we are still working on trying to make it sound "more analog" which is what each new thing always touts in the ad copy

[Deleted]

As for upper octave extension the only way digital even gets close is by using "tricks" like oversampling/upsampling and even then you still need a brick wall filter if your system has the capability to pass the ultrasonic signals on to your tweeters

Not necessarily. Silicon Chip magazine recently tested the Denon DCD-700AE CD player, and not only did it have superb performance, it had absolutely NO measureable digital artifacts or any digital noise whatsoever,regardless of the noise bandwidth used to make the measurement.The only noise was very low level hiss. It uses 24 bit processing and 8 x oversampling. (AU$699 RRP)

SandyK

[rickcr42]

Not necessarily. Silicon Chip magazine recently tested the Denon DCD-700AE CD player, and not only did it have superb performance, it had absolutely NO measureable digital artifacts or any digital noise whatsoever,regardless of the noise bandwidth used to make the measurement.The only noise was very low level hiss. It uses 24 bit processing and 8 x oversampling. (AU$699 RRP)

SandyK

EXACTLY !

You make my point for me dude without even realising it.It "tested" perfect but how does it SOUND ?

I am fairly sure the average portable specs would whip the hell out of any of my amps in SPECS but side by side listening ?

The spec whores WILL be the death of true high fidelity music in the home because all they care about is vanishingly low levels of MEASURABLE distortion artifacts rather than a simple "does it sound good ?"

;D

[rickcr42]

BTW-the word "Mastering" is usually anything but these days where evereything is compressed to fit just under 0dB so it sounds LOUD which many confuse with dynamic but there are a few gems out there and this is spot on

www.digido.com/misc-content/honor-roll.html

digital and analog can and should co-exist but alas that is not meant to be so all we can do is look for the recordings that are done right and play them back on a system that plays music instead of just looking good passing a square wave.......not that digital CAN pass a square wave without some tricks

[Deleted]

EXACTLY !

You make my point for me dude without even realising it.It "tested" perfect but how does it SOUND ?

Rick
In the previous post I stated that it sounded superb, as was to be expected of a top of the line CD player from Denon. You aren't too easily convinced, so I will quote a paragraph from the reviewer (SC Editor)

"Ultimately, sound quality is every bit as good as you would expect. Interestingly,I think that this player has more definition of low level bass signals than I have heard with my existing CD players.That could be a direct result of the very good low level linearity of this player......The Denon DCD-700AE CD player is also utterly quiet and does not inject any hum and buzz into the companion amplifier.So if you have the very best amplifier in your system, you can expect the Denon not to add any noise apart from a teeny amount of hiss which you might hear if you put your ear right up to the tweeter"
But you don't have any Tweeters , do you Rick ?
Alex

[rickcr42]

hate to burst your bubble man but specs don't do @##$$%% for me because in my humble opinion and what experience i have they can only tell you if something has gone wrong but rarely if it is right.

for instance.Take an amp,measure it in every parameter you would normally see in a product manual,then swap out ALL the resistors and capacitors in the signal path for better sounding parts,improve the power supply-maybe add bypasses whewre there are none,maybe increase or decrease the joules or maybe just swap out the filter caps with low ESR types with proper bypasses-say 2.2uF Film and foil/0.1uF stacked film types,look at the layout to see if the routing of the wires (if any ),maybe swap out the consumer grade connectors for proper silver or heavy gold plating types then possibly add some selective damping to the chassis/cabinet,close 'er up.

I would be willing to bet if you perform the same exact measurements you will come out with the same specs but if you compared the sonics,the sound of the device with actual music playing you should hear a day and night difference unless the design was already well designed and using optimal parts or the design so piss poor nothing can help it.

THAT is where dwelling on specs gets you-zero clue on if a thing actually sounds good or is crap

As for reviewers ?

Mixed bag there also.Far too many come at a thing with preconceptions or personal prejudice which if known and are compared against OTHER reviews of gear you know well ypourself are still usable because then you can read between the lines but if a reviewer is one you are not familiar with or who only reviews gear you have never heard in your life or has a propensity to always give a great review of every single piece of audio equipment that crosses his/her desk then the value is no more than passing time reading about a topic you find interesting but as a guide to buy ?

Not me bud.

Been burned way too many times when I was young and dumb enough to be "conned" into selling a system off I KNEW sounded good but that once the pieces of equipment fell out of favor/fashion with the audio press and were crapped on as being "yesterdays news" at which time the reviewer would laud the "latest and greatest most fantabulous have to have it NOW" gear that to be honest was more often than not a step back in SQ but being an asshole thought there was something wrong with ME and so would try very damn hard to like the gear so praised even though deep down I KNEW it sucked !

Took me becoming a confident human,better put "a full grown comfortable in my own skin man" before i learned to make my OWN decisions instead of following the pack to whatever was that days best of the best soon to be discarded in favor of the next days best.

The deck may be a real gem,can't say,but I WILL say watch out for getting hung up on the specs (you KNOW you can't hear the difference between 0.01 % and 0.005 5 distortion so why do so many base a purchase on such differences ?) and beleiving every review you read


Gonna quit now before I piss someone off so will say

G'night honey,sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite

[Deleted]

you KNOW you can't hear the difference between 0.01 % and 0.005 5 distortion

Rick
BULLSHIT !!!

My 15W/Ch. Class A amplifier is close to .0000x distortion ! The original design was measured around .0006% using techniques developed by Douglas Self. The original design was regarded as one of the cleanest sounding amplifiers around, and that was without semi matching and better components. I have a front end modification that noticeably further improves the noise floor, and some claim allows them to hear the actual CDs noise floor.
The soundstage is also markedly improved at the same time, as is the naturalness of the sound. You won't find this mod in any textbooks either.
You are correct though, in that specs alone, can't tell you what something will sound like, but they can be a good starting point.
Alex
BTW, I trust this particular reviwer (The Editor/owner of Silicon Chip magazine, as I have been building (and modding!) many of his designs for quite a few years.

[rickcr42]

My 15W/Ch. Class A amplifier is close to .0000x distortion ! The original design was measured around .0006% using techniques developed by Douglas Self. The original design was regarded as one of the cleanest sounding amplifiers around, and that was without semi matching and better components. I have a front end modification that noticeably further improves the noise floor, and some claim allows them to hear the actual CDs noise floor.

BULLSHIT BACK AT YA !

you need to explain to me,maybe I am retarded and can't see the tree through the forest,how lowering THD has anything to do with the noise floor ?

And to be honest ?

I doubt you or anyone else can here the diffrence between .0006 and ANY lower number.I know some whjo are pitch sensitive in the extreme and others who can tell you if there is a system cutoff above 30kHz (not me,stone deaf after 15k I think) but few who can even tell the difference between a full percent and half that (0.5%) and once past the 0.1% threshold nothing.

noise yes.Wandering images yes.Peaks straing because the power supply ran out of steam yes but THD ?

New one for me man and thankfully I am not sensitive to it because I would be FUBARed considering every system I have used over the last twenty or so years hovers around the 0.1-0.05 mark and to be honest without the test gear couldn't tell you which was which but change out a single signal path cap and you would be busted 'cause I would know immediately even though the measurements would not change

[Deleted]

I doubt you or anyone else can here the diffrence between .0006 and ANY lower number.

Rick
I doubt that too ! But we can hear the difference that the lower level of distortion makes to very low level ambience. A lot of the graininess of the low level ambience is removed, and it is particularly noticeable with DTV 's audio, which starts off being around 25dB or so down. Some people claim that noise just below the CDs noise floor does affect low level ambience. As the low level ambience is raised clear of the residual noise and distortion, there is also an improvement in
"sweetness/naturalness" and a marked improvement in Soundstage depth AND in some cases , HEIGHT !
Believe it, or not !

but change out a single signal path cap and you would be busted 'cause I would know immediately even though the measurements would not change

On this we are in agreement!
SandyK

[rickcr42]

But we can hear the difference that the lower level of distortion makes to very low level ambience. A lot of the graininess of the low level ambience is removed, and it is particularly noticeable with DTV 's audio, which starts off being around 25dB or so down. Some people claim that noise just below the CDs noise floor does affect low level ambience. As the low level ambience is raised clear of the residual noise and distortion, there is also an improvement in
"sweetness/naturalness" and a marked improvement in Soundstage depth AND in some cases , HEIGHT !
Believe it, or not !

First off the CD noise floor is a misnomer because the CD does not do "noise" in the classic sense but rather runs out of bits at the low so noise is actually ADDED to decorelate the digital artifacts.Humans are analog creatures so we have no trouble dealing with progressive noise or distortion-where it comes in gradually during peak events at the top end where the overall SPL masks the majority of it and at the bottom end where room ambient noise in general is louder than the electronic noise.

digital is all or nothing.It either works or it does not aso the ditortion more aggravating and why digital recordings are almost NEVER at the stated dynamic range of the mediums capabilities and the bottom never at the stated bits (24 bit recordings having 12 at the bottom)

toss in the brick wall filters that wipe out ALL upper octave air and it is a wonder we even get as good a sound as we do,especially in a world where most consumers would be totally happy with lossy compression for all music and the manufacturers/labels KNOW IT

As to your findings I think they are more related to power supply improvements allowing the music to stay pure rather than it is any distortion artifacts or lack of

[rickcr42]

...for the spec whores out there I defer to this guy :

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein.

[Deleted]

As to your findings I think they are more related to power supply improvements allowing the music to stay pure rather than it is any distortion artifacts or lack of

Rick
Please explain to me how ensuring that BOTH of the differential pair transistors in the input pair, being kept within the most linear part of their characteristics can lead to a power supply improvement ? Surely that must lead to lower distortion than previously ? Most likely better power supply rejection ratio as well. (PSRR)
To be fair, though, you have never seen a mod like this before, as it is something that several of us in Sydney have been using with differential pairs since 1989 ! Leo can also verify that the mod really does work.
Alex

[PinkFloyd]

As Merton would say..... I'm watching you two