Upgrading MM Cartridge and Phono Preamp

[noddyisking]

I have recently bought a Musical Fidelity X-Can V3 and Senn HD650's to improve the quality and allow increased use of a setup I have in a small room/office off our bedroom. I now want to upgrade the vinyl source. Currently I have a Dunlop Systemdek II with a Linn Basik Plus tonearm and a Linn K9 cartridge going through a Nad PP1 preamp to a Nad C340 integrated amp. I need to change cartridge as you can no longer get a replacement stylus for the K9 and will also upgrade the preamp at the same time. Budget is around £150/€200. Considering the Ortofon 510 and Pro-ject Phono Box.

Musical taste is mainly indie rock. My vinyl collection dates from the early 70's to the mid 80's with a few recent editions like Wilco's Sky Blue Sky.


Any views and alternative suggestions welcome!!

[Nigel]

I think if you do a an internet search you'll find that the Audio Technica AT-95E stylus replacement will fit into a Linn K9 cartridge. This costs about £12. You could always mod the Nad as well to obtain better performance.


www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20777&highlight=AT95

[noddyisking]

Thanks for the quick reply, Nigel.

I had picked up the info on the AT-95E but I spoke to a guy in A1 Sound in Sheffield, who seemed to know his stuff and he said that it fitted in but didn't work well.

Has anyone actually done this successfully?

What is the mod on the PP1. It's a long time since I had a soldering iron in my hand!!

Joe

[Nigel]

www.audioxpress.com/reviews/media/AE300GG.pdf

I see this includes the circuit diagram.

Hopefully, some of the brains on this site will be able to offer some suggestions.

I was thinking Joe, £150 doesn't buy you much in terms of major vinyl upgrades so it might be better improving what you already have. If I was in your situation I'd still consider buying the AT95E cartridge (forget about the stylus replacement then) & maybe something like the Rega
Fono used.
www.rega.co.uk/html/fono_2001.htm

www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/PhonoStages.html

I see there's one on ebay here ,

cgi.ebay.co.uk/rega-fono-diskstage-mm-phono-pre-amplifier_W0QQitemZ320210393064QQihZ011QQcategoryZ12050QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Obviously I have no connection with the seller etc.

[noddyisking]

Thanks Nigel,

How would the Rega compare to a Gram Amp 1 or 2?

[Sol]

nigel said:

I think if you do a an internet search you'll find that the Audio Technica AT-95E stylus replacement will fit into a Linn K9 cartridge. This costs about £12. You could always mod the Nad as well to obtain better performance.

Graham Slee has non-badged AT95Es at around 20 quid plus P&P ... why replace the stylus on the K9 - go for a whole new cartridge.

That said .. if you have budget .. it's probably best spent on the cartridge before you head downstream .. there's lots to choose from sub 100 quid ...

[XTRProf]

My suggestion, just mode the PP1, if it can take mc cart, as the Project Phono (not the tube one) will sound no better than the PP1 for the price. Get a good value for money mc cart like a Denon 103R or Benz 20E or ATOC9 or Sumiko Blue Point Special. The AT95 mm is good but not as good as the mc.

[Sol]

xtrprof said:

My suggestion, just mode the PP1, if it can take mc cart, as the Project Phono (not the tube one) will sound no better than the PP1 for the price. Get a good value for money mc cart like a Denon 103R or Benz 20E or ATOC9 or Sumiko Blue Point Special. The AT95 mm is good but not as good as the mc.

Good suggestion .... AT95E is cheap ... decent .. but not as good as the denon (or so I hear - pun intended!)

[Nigel]

If £150 is your max & I was in your situation. I'd buy the Rega Fono at a ton, Audio Technica at £25. New oil for the turntable bearing from Audio Origami.
www.audioorigami.co.uk/F_Sale/ForSale.htm
New belt for the Systemdek, probably £15. I'd defo get an original belt I bought an ebay copy for for my LP12 & it was so poor I ended up forking out for the real item.
Junk the felt mat, especially if your listening through headphones. Look for a second hand Ringmat or go to your nearest Asda superstore & buy a specially made up 10 " pizza. While the assistant is making up your pizza ask them for another piece of the paper they place the place the pizza on. It's made from cardboard, not the box, it makes a fine free turntable mat as well.

Does your turntable have a power supply? If not this would be my next acquisition.

<Magazines used to highlight the importance of front end hierarchy by setting up two identical Linn turntables - one with a £400 Ittok tonearm and £20 AT95E cartridge. The other with a £150 Basik tonearm and £500 cartridge. Which sounded better? It may be a surprise, but the £20 cartridge in the better arm outperformed the expensive cartridge in the lesser arm.>

[fanboi]

Cannot vouch for the Rega phono stage - have not heard it, but I think Nigel is pretty much on target with his balance of outlay per item to get max "bang for the buck".
I do suspect the PP1 -> Project phono would be a sideways move rather than an upgrade.
One cheapie phono I have used is the TC-754 from www.phonopreamps.com/ - the folk at tnt-audio thought it pretty good www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-preamp_e.html where Lucio states "Now, in order to evaluate its performance as a pure phono preamp, I've hooked up to my system a NAD PP-1 phono stage, already reviewed for TNT-Audio. The nAD PP-1 is a basic unit, which costs more or less the same (± 100$). The comparison is ethically fair, since even the NAD is built in China.
Oh well, the comparison has been of the no game kind. In every audio parameter the T-Preamp phono stage is so vastly superior that it seems a component which belongs to a totally different price league. The bass is punchier, more extendend and articulated (for example, on "Never as good as the first time" by Sade) while the mids are fuller and possess a far better sense of presence. In the high range the difference is even greater. While the PP-1 fails to reproduce the full harmonic content of the signal, the T-Preamp sounds rich and natural." - read the full review for yourself, there is also a review by Geoff Husband who states "In fact under the microscope of the Audionotes/Polaris I've heard nothing else I could live with below the Gramamp 2. The TCC is no Gramamp, it lacks that designs flow, openness and sheer all-round ability, but at 1/4 the price it was close enough that in a lesser system you'd be pushed to split them."
That is a pretty fair wrap from 2 guys who have heard a lot more gear than me.

This was my first (recent) standalone phono stage and I went to the Era Gold V when I upgraded from it.

[noddyisking]

Thanks for all of the help/advise/suggestions. I put this out on a few other forums and this one wins again, as usual, on quality and "genuiness" of response. Will do a bit of thinking and internet research over the next day or so and come back for more advise.

Thanks to all again,

Joe

[noddyisking]

Thanks for the help and advise folks. At this stage I don't really want to upgrade the TT or the arm, mainly because I can't see myself spending enough time listening to vinyl to justify it, much as I am tempted to acquire an LP12, now that I can afford one!! The budget of £150 is not absolute. What I am really after is a new cartridge that will improve on the K9. If a new preamp will give me a noticeable improvement with a MM cartridge and the basic plus arm, the I will invest here also. So from this forum and the guys at Head-Fi and Shaun at A1 Sound in Sheffield, I have got the cartridges down to the AT-110, Ortofon 510, Ortofon 2M Red or Blue, Goldring 1012, 1022, 1042 and trying to pick up a second hand Shure V15 series IV. I now believe that I have to go better than Pro-ject Phono Box to get a true upgrade and am considering the Gram Amp 1 and 2, second hand Rega Fono and the T-Preamp model TC-754.

So the question is: with the Basik Plus and Systemdek II and a Nad C340 integrated amp feeding Mordaunt-Short 902i's or MF X-Can V3/ Senn HD650's, is it worth splashing out £250 to £350? If it is would the Goldring 1042 and the Gram Amp 2 be the best option?

And then when I rediscover all the forgotten gems in my vinyl collection I can get an LP12 .......................... Someone stop me NOW!!

[Nigel]

What condition is the Systemdek in? £350 puts you in the Technics dj deck everyone seems to be raving about ........

www.djdeals.co.uk/prod-details.asp?AID=560

this is another possible option.

Personally, I wouldn't splash out that kinda money, at the end of the day the Linn Basik plus wasn't a bad tonearm but it would still be a limiting factor. I used a Goldring 1042 on a Linn Akito for a couple of years & didn't think it was as good as people say.

[noddyisking]

Thanks again to everyone for the advice and help. I know that I should really be looking at a tonearm upgrade, but, from what I can determine, there is no one in Ireland, North or South who would do the work for me and I would prefer to have it professionally fitted. So, I am 99% decided on a Graham Slee/Goldring combination - probably the Gram Amp 2 SE and Goldring 1042. I will then upgrade the tone arm when I get the opportunity to get the Systedek to the UK and back safely.

Currently listening to "Feats Don't Fail Me Now" on the current set - sublime - digital just can't sound like this!!

Views on the decision??

[Nigel]

Well, you've made your decision. Go for it. I guess your spending a little more than your original intention?

[noddyisking]

A guy on Head-fi.org put me onto a retailer in Dublin who knows his stuff on turntables. So I am going to let him have a look at the Systemdek and see what he thinks. I have to get a cartridge, so I will get him to fit one. Having read a bit more, I am now considering the Ortofon 2M. Depending on what he thinks about the TT, I will then decide on further upgrades. Has anyone got any views on the 2M. Is the Blue version worth the extra cash over the Red model?

[Nigel]

Not heard them, they both received excellent reviews in a recent edition of Hi-Fi World.

[noddyisking]

Yes, I read the reviews. A lot of the comments on forums are very positive. Think I will get the Red up front and then go for the Blue stylus when I change the arm and preamp

[Deleted]

Nigel
Re the NAD PP-1
Either there are very few decent phono preamps available today (other than perhaps boutique manufacturers such as GSP ?) or present day reviewers are easily satisfied.
That circuitry is like something from a semi manufacturer's old application notes. YUK !
I heard a better implementation recently from a Silicon Chip kit, but still found it lacking .
The Rock grotto member concerned is now considering other options. I had a far more natural sounding DIY discrete MM phono preamp years ago ! Opamp rolling in the NAD may possibly improve matters though.
Alex

[fanboi]

Sandy,
note the remarks from Lucio of tnt-audio that I quoted above re the PP-1
"In every audio parameter the T-Preamp phono stage is so vastly superior that it seems a component which belongs to a totally different price league." - and -
"While the PP-1 fails to reproduce the full harmonic content of the signal, the T-Preamp sounds rich and natural."
Does not sound like praise to me.

noddyis, I recently loaned a DL 110 to someone who had previously owned a Shure V15VMxR
and was looking for a replacement cartridge, after a week of trial he has purchased one for himself.

[Deleted]

I do suspect the PP1 -> Project phono would be a sideways move rather than an upgrade.

Tony
I did take note of that,and would have actually used a word a little stronger than sideways. You are much more diplomatic than I am ! But I was referring only to the review and schematic in the link that Nigel posted at the top.I don't know enough about the others to comment. I bow to your superior, up to date knowledge in this area. I only commented because of Nigel's invitation to the more technical types.
Unfortunately, IMHO,the PP1 has achieved a much higher profile than it deserves, mainly because of it's pricing and promotion.
Kind Regards
Alex

[lini]

noddyisking said:

(...) Any views and alternative suggestions welcome!!

Hmmm, if the K9 can take the stylus inserts for the AT95E, going for LPGear's hyperelliptical (ca. US$ 50) or Shibata (ca. US$ 65) upgrade stylus for the AT95E might be worth a try...

And concerning the phono stage: I don't know about the availability for your location, but over here one can find plenty of recent vintage (late 70s to early 90s) pre-amps (i.e. complete ones, not just phono stages) on the used market for fairly low prices. Those thingies often enough have very decent integrated phono stages, usually at least switchable for mm/mc, not seldom also with different capacity/impedance load options and usually also with some possibly helpful extra features like switchable rumble and high-cut filters, which can come in very handy in some situations. And a lot of 'em also have fairly fine headphone outs...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[noddyisking]

Okay - little update. The last remaining turntable guy in Ireland (or at least the last one I can find within a few hours drive) has a look at the Systemdek and tells me that it is in fairly good condition, fits an Ortofon 2M Red, plays about with the settings on the Linn Basik Plus for a few minutes and advises that I should see go home and listen to some LP's, think about if I really want to spend a lot of cash to improve the sound, and come back to him in a few months. I go home and listen to some of my fav LP's with the new cartridge. Definite improvement - more definition and clarity.

And now what??

From what everyone here and on Head-fi.org is telling me, the next step is a big one and I am still not confident that the NAD C340 will effectively process any improvements. So I am going to listen to what I have for a few months and come back to this later in the year.