Nigel
Been here a while!
Watching over Gotham City keeping us safe
Posts: 2,064
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Post by Nigel on Apr 28, 2016 10:11:33 GMT
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Apr 28, 2016 18:40:24 GMT
I expect that Hillsborough was a consequence of everyday people caught in a situation in which they made a number of poor decisions just like we all do, occasionally, in our lifes; they conincided, connected, escalated, and a disaster occurred. The problem is those in charge then lie, people take sides, and then there is a lengthy search for 'justice', whatever that is now. It is now so long that a 'truth and reconsilitation' approach is required otherwise a scapegoat will be found and strung up to satisfy those wanting more.
Many people loose friends, relatives and loved ones to accidents and mistakes. They don't get the truth or justice because a single life is often forgotten or accepted as an everyday occurrance; nothing changes. With Hillsborough there have been many positive consequences and now there is an inquest verdict I do wonder that if 'justice' is pushed further it will only have negative results.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 28, 2016 19:50:40 GMT
I can't believe they are still going on about it after all these years.... as you say Freddy, mistakes / accidents happen in life and attempting to apportion "blame" on a person / people for 29 years is doing nobody any favours. What happened 29 years ago happened and a lot of lessons were learnt from it. If the same thing happened TODAY then it would be fair to ask "why?" and "how?"..... Venues, these days, have CCTV cameras / strict no smoking policies etc. but, 29 years ago a football match was pretty much a free for all with no crowd safety measures in force.
Jesus, I remember going to see Pink Floyd at Wembley stadium in 1998 and it was a "first come first in" free for all..... My mate and I were about 400 back from the front of the queue (we queued from about 9am in the MORNING!!) and the capacity inside the stadium must have been 100,000...... one end was the stage and the rest of the seats AND pitch were for the audience. The moment we got into the stadium people were going crazy running like mad to get the front of the stage, it was absolute MADNESS! I didn't want to go to the front and took one of the seats because I knew there was going to be a gigantic bed crashing into the stage (and exploding) I wanted to see that!
Anyhoo...... I have NEVER seen a stadium fill up so fast in my life, EVERYBODY was running about like headless chickens. I also want to point out that you could take your own alcohol and earlier in the day (in the queue) there were beer can fights (good humour) with people throwing their empty cans at each other..... let's just say that half the stadium was absolutely PISSED by the time the gig kicked off (8pm if memory serves)..... well..... they started off with Shine on you crazy diamond and within minutes the entire "inside" of wembley stadium was just a thick cloud of marijuana / hash smoke....... I don't normally partake but had no option, you couldn't avoid breathing it in.... anyone that was there will confirm this!
Now........ you possibly had a half and half mix in there...... half were pissed and half were stoned...... by the end of the gig all of the drinkers were DOUBLY pissed thanks to the hash smokers...... I would guesstimate that 70% of the crowd were tobacco smokers.
IF, and it's a big "IF", something had caught fire in there it would have been utter MAYHEM..... as I say, it was an utter free for all "sit where you want to sit / stand where you want to stand"....... the crowd, as it turned out, all behaved perfectly (as your typical Floyd lover does) it was a big party and one of the best experiences I have EVER been a part of...... not a policeman in sight, they were all waiting outside (HUNDREDS of them / loads of them mounted) to perform crowd control when the gig was over...... that was typical back then, especially at Wembley stadium, (I lived 2 miles from Wembley back in the day and saw lots of bands there...... My dad also took me to Every England / Scotland football international match from 1967 - 1981 (He died in 1981) so I knew Wembley VERY well.
It was always pretty much a free for all "first in the queue gets in first" type of venue and it worked. People smoked, they took in bottles / cans of booze and had a good time. As I say, the only time you saw a policeman was AFTER the match / GIG and they would be outside en masse waiting to "disperse" the crowd in an orderly fashion..... that would sometimes mean that a copper on a HORSE would smash the living daylights out of somebodies head with a truncheon but on the whole it was a long "well policed" wait to be allowed onto the tube.
What I am trying to say is this....... everything was free and easy back in the day.... true freedom. Since Hillsborough, lessons "have" been learnt but it's no fun going to a live gig these days...... it's more like going into a controlled "ZONE" and I'm surprised the audience are not required to wear ear defenders and hard hats. That ONE, most unfortunate, incident at Hillsborough was most definitely a catalyst to introduce safety measures "within" a venue and some may argue that these safety measures are a good thing...... me personally?...... I will never forget the freedom and unity of the crowd in the old school venues, that will never happen again...... to be in a stadium with nigh on 100,000 fellow music lovers all doing their own thing but coming together as one was one magical experience.
Let's just hope that something like Hillsborough doesn't happen again because, if it does, you can rest assured that even more of our freedom will be eroded and the audience will be so tightly monitored that it will suck all the fun out of the event....... a politically correct audience wearing hard hats and safety boots is not a gig I want to be involved in, any time soon.
Those of you who "kind of get me" may wonder why I like the "tune" Safety Dance so much? I don't quite know myself but "is it safe to dance?" is a question that may seem stupid now but in a few years time dancing may be deemed "unsafe".......... when we stop dancing we are totally under big brothers thumb.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 28, 2016 21:38:34 GMT
The best I could find.......
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Post by mrpharmacist on Apr 29, 2016 19:58:28 GMT
Sport was a fairly grim, glum affair through the 80s-even in lil'ol' New Zealand, rugby tests were being played in front of barbed wire and more www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZMIySG75c
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 29, 2016 20:47:04 GMT
Sport was a fairly grim, glum affair through the 80s-even in lil'ol' New Zealand, rugby tests were being played in front of barbed wire and more www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZMIySG75cJesus....... fenced off (caged) crowd having to resort to flour bombs on parachutes? I remember (showing my age now) when a PITCH INVASION was the done thing (If your team won) and the goal scorer was "hoisted up" and passed across the crowd like a god!....... barbed wire? what has this world come to? Sad days indeed.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 29, 2016 20:54:18 GMT
You can probably apportion blame to the Scottish "louts" who dared to invade the Wembley pitch in 1977....... Old school and I loved every SECOND of it! Disclaimer: At no time did "I" or anybody commit a crime..... we were keen gardeners Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 29, 2016 21:04:36 GMT
Even the "old match" England V Scotland has been banned........ They'll ban smiling in a public place next.
We are living in a shithole controlled by children who were "bullied" at school....... what other reason would they have to turn every pleasure into a "verbotten" and spend their time making our life's as miserable as possible?
Tosspot wankers.
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Post by mrpharmacist on Apr 30, 2016 17:42:32 GMT
Even the "old match" England V Scotland has been banned........ They'll ban smiling in a public place next. We are living in a shithole controlled by children who were "bullied" at school....... what other reason would they have to turn every pleasure into a "verbotten" and spend their time making our life's as miserable as possible? Tosspot wankers. Stuff the stuffiness, I need a nescafe www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEbdNvdhpUA
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 30, 2016 20:19:20 GMT
Even the "old match" England V Scotland has been banned........ They'll ban smiling in a public place next. We are living in a shithole controlled by children who were "bullied" at school....... what other reason would they have to turn every pleasure into a "verbotten" and spend their time making our life's as miserable as possible? Tosspot wankers. Stuff the stuffiness, I need a nescafe www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEbdNvdhpUANailed it right on the head mate! One of my most favourite films of all time. Mike.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Apr 30, 2016 20:29:17 GMT
SALO also says a lot........
Worth watching the original.
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Post by mrpharmacist on May 1, 2016 0:49:56 GMT
SALO also says a lot........ Worth watching the original. I never got what the fuss was to be honest by Scorcese. There are moments of Theatre of Cruelty in Bertolucci's 1900, and if the cinematography isn't by Vittorio Storraro it 'may as well be'
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Nigel
Been here a while!
Watching over Gotham City keeping us safe
Posts: 2,064
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Post by Nigel on May 10, 2016 7:07:29 GMT
The disaster happened because of the incompetent way the crowd was managed on that sad afternoon. Because of lies and cover up it's taken this long to establish the truth.
Question six: Determination on unlawful killing issue
Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the Disaster were unlawfully killed?
Answer: Yes
(By a 7-2 majority verdict)
Question seven: Behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Answer: No
If your answer to the question above is “no”, please answer the following question. Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Answer : No
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Nigel
Been here a while!
Watching over Gotham City keeping us safe
Posts: 2,064
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Post by Nigel on May 11, 2016 10:11:03 GMT
The police chief responsible for giving the order to open the gates, David Duckenfield, medically retired on a full police pension according to wikipedia. Also, I recently read that the CCTV recordings from the control room he was responsible for, my understanding is there was only him and one other senior police officer inside the control box, went missing! 96 people dead and the video tapes go missing. Destroyed do you think?
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 11, 2016 19:54:29 GMT
The police chief responsible for giving the order to open the gates, David Duckenfield, medically retired on a full police pension according to wikipedia. Also, I recently read that the CCTV recordings from the control room he was responsible for, my understanding is there was only him and one other senior police officer inside the control box, went missing! 96 people dead and the video tapes go missing. Destroyed do you think? Back in the day the police were as corrupt as you could get Nigel. A few miles away from where I lived in London there was a place called Harlesden which had a predominantly black population...... over a period of time THREE black guys were hanged to death in the cells. At the time the coppers reckoned they had hanged themselves but most of the black community were pretty sure that the coppers had hanged these men. I had a mate, Colin, who was a black dude and we were both arrested (after a punch up outside a disco) and taken to Willesden police station (2 miles from Harlseden)..... the coppers treated me ok but they were really OTT with Colin.... He said something (can't remember what it was, maybe a question) and the desk sergeant shouted out "shut up you F*ckin' jam jar razor if I hear another word out of your marmalade mouth you'll get a kicking!" Translated into English (from cockney) he was was essentially saying "shut up you F*ckin' golliwog spade if I hear another word out of your spade mouth you'll get a kicking!" Jam jar = Golliwog (remember the golliwog on the robertson's jam jars?) Marmalade = Spade Razor = Spade (razor blade / spade) I'll never forget that Nigel..... Colin took an asthma attack he was so frightened after that threat (which would have been a REAL event if he had uttered another word)....... I told the desk sergeant that he was having an asthma attack and needed his "spinhaler" (which had been taken from him when he was booked into the police station)..... the desk sergeant basically replied with something along the lines of "oh dear the poor little silver is having problems breathing, that makes it a lot easier for us... saves on paperwork" Nigel, I was only about 19 at the time but will NEVER forget that!! Remember, back in the day, the police were called the "Police Force"..... there were no cameras, no recorders..... essentially, what went down in the police station stayed in the police station...... I know for a FACT that they would give people a damned good kicking (and possibly a hanging) from another personal experience. I was arrested (on another occasion) for fighting outside the Purple Pussycat night club in Finchley road...... I'd basically decked a wanker (who looked like Quentin Crisp) because he offered me £50 (a lot of money at the time) to have sex with him....... I told him three times to eff off and made it clear that I wasn't a woofter...... anyhoo, he kept pestering me so I took him out with a right hook straight to the temple. Stupid me, stayed there thinking I'd killed him (I'd knocked him out) and guess what? A damned filth wagon happens to be passing and the next thing I know I'm cuffed and transported to Marylebone police station (they used to hold the IRA guys in the cells in that joint). I told them what had happened and kept saying "that woofter was trying to buy my arsehole for the night what the hell have you arrested ME for?!"....... I was banged up in a cell and told to "shut up"...... I kept banging on the door shouting "you effin' bastards, let me out" in my usual diplomatic fashion (back then)........... They opened the door and EIGHT of them came in and beat the living daylights out of me....... it was all boots into the stomach, nothing to the face. IIRC I received four broken ribs...... not a biggie but quite painful for a few months. They opened the cell door in the morning and told me I was free to go now I had "slept it off". It was the way it was back then Nigel, they were a totally unaccountable Police "force"...... today's "Police SERVICE" are not able to apply unaccounted force like they did back in the day...... everything is now recorded and accounted for and it's most definitely better for a "suspect" who is held in custody....... the "suspect" is essentially guaranteed that he won't get the crap kicked out of him and will be treated with respect whilst in custody. The downside? sometimes a good kicking will save on paperwork and will ensure the "suspect" doesn't re-offend. Bottom line, for sure, the coppers in charge of the Hillsborough disaster were way out of order, covering their own backs, but that is what it was like back then. Have a look at the "suss" deaths that ethnic people died from whilst in police custody (back in the day)........... the Police were a bunch of unaccountable thugs, simple as that! www.irr.org.uk/news/black-deaths-in-custody/
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Post by PinkFloyd on May 11, 2016 20:15:46 GMT
I meant to add that a "silver" (back in the day) meant a "coon" (silver spoon = coon).
At no point am I a racist Alex, before you recommend I tidy this up, I am simply reporting on the way it was back in the day and to do so requires recounting it as it was with the Police forces I happened to be involved with.
ATB
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 21:04:59 GMT
I meant to add that a "silver" (back in the day) meant a "coon" (silver spoon = coon). At no point am I a racist Alex, before you recommend I tidy this up, I am simply reporting on the way it was back in the day and to do so requires recounting it as it was with the Police forces I happened to be involved with. ATB Mike. Mike I am well aware of what it was like back then, with quite a few black deaths here while in Police custody. These days it's much harder for them to get away with things like this due to cameras almost everywhere , and bystanders filming brawls etc., with their mobile phones.
Alex
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 0:32:21 GMT
We come from an olde English culture, most of which was dictated by the King James bible and its predecessors, and so our collective cultural sense is for "punishment" for criminals. Since most of the criminals are too hardened to respond to punishment (unless it's severely physical), the system doesn't work.
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