Copper V's Silver

[manic]

I read a recent article on two commentators arguing the toss on the benefits between pure copper V's pure silver interconnects and cables. Interested in what the readership think about this debate- does the type of metal matter or the purity of the material?.

[rickcr42]

an argument/discussion that rages daily everywhere you get audiophile types together.

Is there a difference ? Yes.

Is on a clear winner over the other ? Nope.Not even close.

Is about as system /personal taste dependant as it gets and why this is not a topic i personally feel will ever have a conclusion.

Silver-tends to favor the mid to upper registers.Can sound articulate and "fast" in some systems,bass shy or bright in others

Copper-tends to favor the low to mid range area and is more relaxed sounding than the above.In some systems this comes across as slow and ponderous while in others smooth and detailed.

The above are my personal observations using solid core wire (all I will use) and while the descriptions use defined sounds the actuality is these differences are tiny and in many systems or in very small amounts (internal wiring) would not even be distinctly heard.

any time you want to listen for an A/B difference between any two items it is always good to set the parmameters in advance and I personally find it is the human voice and natural instruments that work best for evaluation with solo brass (a sax for instance should sound rough and raspy not smooth)instruments best of all combined with the female voice (should give you the willies.a female voice is sexy ).

[thegreatroberto]

I've just made some IC's (bought 3M of QED silver spiral on EBay)............Checking my factory made versions,there are 2 co-ax'd conductors.The 2 cores are commoned and soldered to the central pin , with the 2 co-axed/shielded conductors commoned and earthed to the body of the RCA/phono plug.Sound right to you Rick ? This is how the QED factory do it on my 2 sets of QED silver spiral.

Biggest problems I have is a decent set(4) of RCA /Phono plugs for a decent price.The QED silver spiral cable is quite thick and needs plugs that can take 8-9mm cable.Most plugs only do 6mm.Those that do take 9mm are silly prices ,i.e. £15 for 4.............


Starts to make "rolling your own" expensive !

I'm looking to make my own IC's for say £30/metre/pair ! Any more and I may as well buy SH on the 'bay

Don't worry Officer......these are for my own consumption

[rickcr42]

Sound right to you Rick ?

Sounds like the description of double balanced but i have to wonder a bit at the "why" of it.Cross coupled geometry maybe ?

having a hard time wrapping my head around it and may have to read the info to understand ;D

Most plugs only do 6mm.Those that do take 9mm are silly prices ,i.e. £15 for 4.............

well there is also the total polar opposite in plugs,the nickel plated generics which mostly do have larger openings though a bit hard to justify using with silver cables

I actually use cheap radio shack RCS plugs more than I like to admit in public and find they sound no worse than the expensive ones and way better in the "comfort level" area than cheap gold plugs with both very thin and questionable quality gold plating.

[manic]

Interesting reading.

How would you guys terminate silver cable like QED- with silver solder? Any particular tips for a rusty DIY'er. I have heard some awful sounding cables, originally factory terminated and later DIY'ed by manic tweakers with what looked like suspect soldering. I can't talk - not exactly an expert with a soldering iron.

[rickcr42]

I use solder with a really low silver content (off hand can't think of the percentage) because if there is anything that is a serious pain in the ass to solder it is high melting point silver bearing solder combined with a connector having a large area which sucks the heat right from the connection.

the trick with doing RCA connections is HIGH heat and a big ass chisel tip and enough recovery time between joints to allow the iron to re-heat to full levels.

Trying to solder Jacks or Plugs with an underpowered iron usually means melted wires and deformed jack/plug dielectrics from having the iron on the joint too long and as the heat "whicks" away from the tip it without fail goes to the most heat sensitive part of the project.

[rickcr42]

BTW:

I use these babies 'cause I like to be able to take a circuit asembly right out of the chassis without de-soldering anything.By having every single 'through the chassis" part mount from the rear it is a simple matter of undo all hardware and pop out the assembly.

But man,these bastards need almost a damn blow torch to solder

[xerxes]

I read somewhere that one should always use silver loaded solder with either solid or silver plated wire and with gold plated connectors etc.

In any case, the two silver loaded solders I've tried are WBT silver solder and Wonder solder, both are 4% silver. I use a fairly cheap 15w Antex soldering iron and I've found both the WBT and the Wonder solder very easy to use.

[Captain Scarlett]

:)Another reason for copper and silver to sound different is due to the thermocouple effect at the point the wire terminates to the plug.

With copper you have: Copper (wire)/Tin (solder)/Gold (plug)
With Silver you have: Silver (wire)/Tin (solder)/Gold (plug)

Electrode potentials are:-

Copper (Cu) +0.34
Silver (Ag) +0.8
Gold (Au) +1.36
Tin (Sn) -0.14

These are standardized against 1 volt in the laboratory, but in our interconnect application the contact area is only small and resembles what you get with a thermocouple - a small micro-volt DC voltage that changes with temperature.

It is not however, the DC voltage we are concerned with (unless connecting two DC coupled stages perhaps...), but the AC voltage or current, so the Thermocouple voltage is of little consequence, but the NOISE it generates IS!!!

The noise can be at all frequencies but RF and mains hum pick-up are the culprits. The bigger the electrode potential difference, the larger the RF and hum.

However, the RF goes largely unrectified, so you usually don't get radio breakthrough (although it is possible), but the RF modulates the signal (or vice-versa) producing undertones inside the audio spectrum - a bit like a flanger (phaser) turned right down.

In some systems this very subtle flanging can be nice sounding - in others it can be horrid.

Similarly, the hum is that small you hardly hear it (unless you are into vinyl...), but that produces overtones where it beats with the music producing another subtle flanging effect.

Therefore Silver (because of the greater potentials of the dissimilar metals over Copper) gives you a more "excitable" sound which can sweeten-up some systems and sound crap on others.

There is a way that you can use Copper OR Silver without such a marked result. It has been known in the world of RF for years. You crimp the connector instead of soldering or welding. Take a look at BNC plugs! Try finding a "solder bucket" version - you may be lucky - but mainly they're the crimp-on variety so that the thermocouple effect is much less (fewer dissimilar metal junctions by cutting out solder at -0.14), leading to a cleaner signal, because with RF you can easily re-transmit another frequency, even from a receiver!!!!

Now if you could get crimp-on phono plugs, I reckon you'd get a better signal with either metal, than you would mucking about soldering plugs on.

True, you can get "Silver" solder, but it is just normal solder with a trace of Silver (For real Silver solder you need a brazing hearth!!!), and that may bring the Electrode Potential a little more in-line, but nowhere near the match you need.

Happy soldering!

G

[PinkFloyd]

Excellent stuff Captain S! I have always believed that silver gives a brighter sound and you have now explained why that it the case. I have also believed that soldering say a copper wire onto a gold plated socket (or silver onto a gold plated socket) isn't a good thing, it just doesn't "seem" right to mix those different metals with solder. Obviously, due to the customer "demand" for everything "gold plated" they probably would look down their noses at nickle phono sockets as something inferior even though most of the recording studios use them!

It's the "plated" bit I'm not too keen on, again this is two different metals...... the body of the part and then the "plating" and then the solder and then the wire.. so we could end up with 3 or four (or more) different metals bonded at the termination.

I much prefer keeping all the metals the same but that's a pretty hard feat to achieve due to the dissimilar metals that are available from the component manufacturers (gold plated, copper, tin, blah blah) anyways, nice post Captain S!

[rickcr42]

Excellent stuff Captain S!

seconded.Very well thought out response with some actual MEAT on the bones.

Obviously, due to the customer "demand" for everything "gold plated" they probably would look down their noses at nickle phono sockets as something inferior even though most of the recording studios use them!

And a damn shame too.I am trying to bring a passive control center to market and at the same time keep the cost down but because the high end "press" and "ad copy" have made it so that there are certain expectations I am totally screwed on even thinking about hitting my original price point since best I can do is $150 for the connectors alone !!!!!!!

I am not talking about high end "named" designer parts but just good quality isolated heavy gold plated jacks (don't want to hear no shit about how they scratched up,can't have scratched RCA jacks ;D ).Three stinkin' rotaries costing me $60 because they MUST be sealed even though we all mostly know just working the switch breaks any surface crap (and why preamps made in the fifties still work fine with open frame switches) so already at $210 for fkn jacks and not even all the switching.No chassis,no lettering,no wiring,no labor,no design work just three damn rotary switches and twenty RCA plus 2 TRS jacks !

Toss in the two isiolation transformers at $60 per (up to $350 uncased/unassembled/minus hardware,three toggles,wire,wire management......) and it kinda cuts out my thoughts on offering something within reach of everyone unless I plan to be a benefactor and give shit away

A quality "pro style" jacks group with silver contact open frame switching and less "ad copy freindly" toggle switches would slice that price in half but then I would have the self proclaimed experts/critics saying "If with there was a better XXX or the XXX was a higher end part........" and that is what is ruining the market every bit as much as the new rules.


What to do ? Play the damn game by the rules set by ignorant consumers who WANT to overpay,who WANT to drool over things they will never have then while everyone says how nice the device is sell nothing."yeah it is nice but way out of my price range.Nice though"


BTW-I am a copper type myself and minimalist copper at that preferring high purity copper magnet wire for internals AND externals.To me unshielded "skinny" cables sound best but even here the market shows that unless you cover everything with a thick outter shell and use "connectors as art" you are screwed if you want in to the cable market even though the apparently flimsy interconnects would wipe the floor with the over designed high end crap running in the K$ range be it silver OR copper.
At that point you are hearing the plugs and not the thin wire anyway which if you think about it is the dominant part in the path.

Just my personal experience/opinion though

[manic]

I like your style Rickmonster, I kneel to your expertise Captain S and your undoubted skill with an iron PinkFlyod. I have often thought about running up a pair of home made cables for the shear fun of it, using good solid materials to pitch against the pretty packaged versions. Like members I am interested in sound rather than looks. Any additional suggestions for 'raw' cable to tinker with?

[PinkFloyd]

manic said:

I like your style Rickmonster, I kneel to your expertise Captain S and your undoubted skill with an iron PinkFlyod.

Is that all I get?? "skill with an iron" hmpfh! makes me sound like I sit at home all day ironing fckin' shirts

I have often thought about running up a pair of home made cables for the shear fun of it

The sheer fun of it? This isn't about "fun", where do you think you are?? Butlins??

using good solid materials to pitch against the pretty packaged versions.

As opposed to "soft and flimsy" materials like marshmallows and candy floss?

Like members I am interested in sound rather than looks.

I prefer my women to shut the fck up when I'm ramming one home and prefer looks over moaning any day..... oh, you meant audio?

Any additional suggestions for 'raw' cable to tinker with?

Maplin (http:://www.maplin.co.uk) do some good raw cables @ a good price you can make one of these up for pennies www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-silver.htm Maplin codes should be there. Actually Maplin do some very good raw cables, worth looking at all of them.

[manic]

Didn't realise you are such a sensitive sole. What I will say in your defense - you know which parts to stick on a broad - sorry board!!!

[PinkFloyd]

manic said:

Didn't realise you are such a sensitive sole. What I will say in your defense - you know which parts to stick on a broad - sorry board!!!

[Captain Scarlett]

Hi Manic,

Pinky is really a nice guy. I think he is trying to ram home a point here and please do not feel offended by what he says. Mike (Pinky) is a great tweaker as well as being rather nifty with a soldering iron - he has also worked professionally in this industry!!! I don't have the time to get to know everybody here, but I've known Mike for a few years and he knows his stuff (not half!). I only know Rick from this forum, but I can tell he also knows a thing or two, nudge, nudge (and that sounds like an understatement, sorry Rick).

I too have been guilty of an emotional response from time to time, and we do it because we know there are many (too many) in this industry who are "leg-lifters" and in general, the magazine reviewers have fallen for their dark side too. As such, the customer and beginner in this world are already brainwashed by Satan himself, and although not their fault, talk a load of bollocks which can at some times screw the brains in of any good and true professional. However, we must forgive all lost sheep, as does our lord.

Guys! We somehow have to educate people in the good old ways. I know this is what you're saying because I'm at your level, but the beginner (or even someone who considers himself further on than that) really doesn't understand us in the way we understand us.

I can see it's going to be a bigger job than any of us expected. Stick with us Manic!

G

[Captain Scarlett]

OOOps, Fogot!

Try CT100 - satellite downlead - all copper - v. f(kn). thick copper! Plug entry too small? Try a step drill in a rechargeable drill - great for opening it up a bit (risky saying!!!)

Let us pray.

Heavenly father - please lead Manic and all our friends out of temptation and in to the light that is truly yours. Amen

In other words, please can we go back to the old ways, Fkn PLEASE!!!

See you on the music review pages in the next few light years, something has got to be said about this Fkn world!

G

[rickcr42]

Mike was likely trying to be ironic and it came about as a bit edgy or maybe he is having a "mike moment" but all good.I have been known to go off the ranch every once in a while and those that know me or my ways allow me a bit of slack sooo anywayyyy........


Back OT which as many know can be dangerous to your health,wallet or both

Like members I am interested in sound rather than looks. Any additional suggestions for 'raw' cable to tinker with?

well yeah but you will likely be laughed off the planet if anyone sees the cables in a middling high end system unless you use some deception (LIE)


first the ingredients:

The RCA jacks.Two choices here and they are either the "crimp on" style (4 for the high price of $4 U.S. !)



www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062472&cp=&origkw=rca+plug&kw=rca+plug&parentPage=search

or the "solder on" type (8 for the price of the same ridiculously expensive $4,the ones I use a LOT )



www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103424&cp=&pg=6&origkw=rca+plug&kw=rca+plug&parentPage=search

or if you have a fully DIY system and RCA connectors are not a must the superior in all ways Redel plastic connectors in the two contact package.these babies are used as inputs to medical equipement,in aerospace,laboratory equipment and RF test equipment so have great contact integrity combined with very little metal area



www.lemousa.com/browse.do?page=0&groupCollectionID=P

and finally for a good no nonsense "traditional" RCA plug with good performance try the Nuetrik PRO-Fi RCA's or the Kimber "Ultra-Plate" plugs.A bit pricy in comparison to the others but not so very when you compare to the typical "audiophile" types



Get yourself some magnet wire in either #20 or #22 guage.i use this stuff and buy gobs of it because it is cheap and it is local.Five smackers for a serious supply that I can use for anything audio up to and including speaker connections



www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2036277&cp=&origkw=magnet+wire&kw=magnet+wire&parentPage=search


Then following this thread make a set of cables that will whip the hell out of many very expensive and very highly regarded designs

rockgrotto.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=658&action=display&thread=1146610883


cover the whole deal with cotton piping or not,add heat shrink from the cable to the plug.....or not,play music

A variant could be a simple three wire Kimber PBJ style braid or even a two wire twist.At these prices it is painless to make up a few pair of each type for comparing the sonics.

In the natural state the above cables sound great but are about as flimsy as it gets so an overall COTTON cover or even better individual conductor cotton covers would be best but even so if you do not futz with the cables once inserted even the naked wires are fine.


another "el cheapo" experiment can be done with Kynar silver plated copper wire wrapping wire.comes in a boalod of colors and is the same stuff some after market cable makers shamelessly will sell you for $$$$ but never tell you what the wire actually is.

Sturdier than the magnet wire having a real covering (and a good thing being #30) and not too shabby sounding in either of the above methods or in a litz braid (no easy task).Around $5 for 50ft in small quantities



finally for a dirt cheap but usable performer,not quite as good as the above but better than many is a simple two wire pair pulled from a CAT-6 (better than CAT-5 wire) cover and connected directly to the RCA jacks

[rickcr42]

I only know Rick from this forum, but I can tell he also knows a thing or two, nudge, nudge (and that sounds like an understatement, sorry Rick).

about the nicest damn compliment I have ever received in a forum though methinks I still have MUCH to learn......or is that unlearn !

I too had once fallen for all the hype that high end audio has become and went from having a very tidy system that sounded GREAT with any kind of music to having a shitload of "correct" yet dismal sounding systems because i was young enough and dumb enough to buy into the ad copy backed up with not only lucid arguments,very persuasive if deceptive,but then when the reviewers agreed I thought maybe there was something wrong with me !

Here I am full circle thirty + years later just entering the reality zone where a reviewer stating "amp A sounds pleasing with music but I have a feeling amp B is more accurate as the test results show so that is the one I would choose as the better amp" is to be pitied instead of blindly followed down the path to audio hell.
A hell where test results and graphs are more important than how a thing sounds or worse yet no matter how good it sounds AND measures considered crap if there is not a $500 chassis wrapped around the $3 ciruitry and another $300 worth of designer jacks on the back.
A hell where audio cables would be better worn as jewelry instead of connected to a pice of high resolution audio gear.Hell they cost enough to drape around your significant others neck anyway !
a hell were style points means more in cables and where rather than make a great product and sell it for a reasonable price you MUST dress it up and quadruple the baseline cost or it will not even be reviewed being considered garbage strictly on the looks/cost merits.


Friggin' sad when you can pull the guts out of the average all-in-one TV/Radio/Phonograph console with built in speakers,put it in a simple chassis,add some knobs and maybe an on/off switch then have an amp that will kick the hell out of a good 60% of what is considered high end and THAT before any cap updates !

Or when my 1960's era AR XA turntable with 1980's Shure V15 phono cartridge or my Revox open reel deck whips every single digital source I own (my Nakimichi 600 "wedge" is damn close !) I have to wonder just WTF is going on ?

and why does it cost so much loot to meet the same SQ that was once expected at the "average consumer level" of home equipment ?

AND JUST WHERE THE HELL DID THE FKN BALANCE CONTROL GO ?!?!?

Is this such a sonic butcher we must all suffer a bad stereo image just because of some knuckleheads idea of sonic purity ?

I AM NOT IN BALANCE so how can I expect everything from source to final transducer to be ?

Those fancy stepped attenuators may be fine for someone with perfect left/right hearing (and i do not) and a dead on left to right balanced system from source to output but so far I have neither met the person OR the system and think it is not too much to ask for me to have a fkn balance control in something other than one of my home brews !
I mean jeeze ! what would it add in cost ? Another $5 or so ?
sonic purity my ass.I will take a dead nuts image over that any day of the week and that includes weekends

Whew !

I feel better now.You may now go back on topic folks with my blessing


what WAs the question anyway ? ;D

[PinkFloyd]

manic said:

Didn't realise you are such a sensitive sole. What I will say in your defense - you know which parts to stick on a broad - sorry board!!!

My "diverse" sense of humour at play Alan.. those that know me from Head-Fi will understand I can come across as a bit "wayward" from time to time but that's just me mate..... far from sensistive just a pretty strange sense of humour ;D

[manic]

No offense meant and none taken. You guys are an excellent source of information - my comments were a poor attempt at humor but they do reflect the encouragement in your threads to give DIY a go. I just have to motivate myself to begin with some basic tasks and I often though about putting together a home made pair of cables to see how good they could be.