pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 20, 2012 1:14:10 GMT
Shaun So your using the USB-i2s next to the pc/source into the teleporter for the long transmition distance? Nothing wrong with that.
There should be sound card able to 384/32 by now, I havn't searched
Javier Usb3? Therietically it should be lower noise and better power supply. Have you tried a usb3 data lead yet? It should have better shielding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 1:25:18 GMT
Shaun So your using the USB-i2s next to the pc/source into the teleporter for the long transmition distance? Nothing wrong with that. There should be sound card able to 384/32 by now, I havn't searched Javier Usb3? Therietically it should be lower noise and better power supply. Have you tried a usb3 data lead yet? It should have better shielding. Allan Seeing that HFC found audible differences between even Cat.5e and Cat.6 in networks, what makes you think that the Teleporter doesn't also cause minor degradation due to PSU issues etc.in comparison with direct USB output like you guys are doing in this thread ? Agreed that Russ White is a smart cookie, but most of his designs get markedly improved by old bodgers like Leo, yourself and many others.You are welcome to demo it here sometime to see how transparent it really is. Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 20, 2012 6:50:05 GMT
Shaun So your using the USB-i2s next to the pc/source into the teleporter for the long transmition distance? Nothing wrong with that. There should be sound card able to 384/32 by now, I havn't searched Javier Usb3? Therietically it should be lower noise and better power supply. Have you tried a usb3 data lead yet? It should have better shielding. Allan Seeing that HFC found audible differences between even Cat.5e and Cat.6 in networks, what makes you think that the Teleporter doesn't also cause minor degradation due to PSU issues etc.in comparison with direct USB output like you guys are doing in this thread ? Agreed that Russ White is a smart cookie, but most of his designs get markedly improved by old bodgers like Leo, yourself and many others.You are welcome to demo it here sometime to see how transparent it really is. Alex Differences between cat5e and cat6 in on a network My head hurts just thinking bout dat. As for the teleporters,,,, well anything/everything can be detrimental, one can only try. And take the least detrimental way or commercially, take the cheapest option. ;D IMPV On most dac's, you need i2s input, Problem is on a pc, you'll have a choice of either spdif or usb or having the dac onboard in a soundcard or motherboard. Usb up to now has been so so, motherboard audio is (make your own statement), spdif from motherboard same, soundcards, analogue can be quite good and improving, spdif out on soundcard generally better. Problem is, with soundcard spdif, is i2s is converted to spdif, and this has it's issues, same as decoding it. So why not take i2s direct out??? because it's only good for a distance of 4 to 6 inches, then it can fall out of sync between lines. i2s was originally designed for on-board data transmission between components. spdif was designed for transmission of his data to the outside world, If the LVDS's can keep the signals in sync with each other then a major part of the problem is solved for i2s. Whether it is better is yet to be seen/heard. Allan ps while on pc's there's a driver for everything on the motherboard, driver for add on cards and devices, some generic, some manufacturer specific, different versions of each. Just to add some more variables ;D
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 20, 2012 7:24:14 GMT
The USB signal is not comming from the soundcard so there is njo "conversion to USB". They are alternative routes. The decoded signal from the player can go to either a PCI/PCIe soundcard OR to an USB one, not first to the former and from there to the latter. Hi Allan ''So you use the Amanero nest to the pc and then transmit i2s over the longer distance via teleporter to the dac'' if you are asking if I'm using the Teleporters the way that Russ intended (he designed them to use with his up coming USB/I2S board). then the answer is yes maybe I'm missing something but i thought that it's ability to work into long cables (up to 100ft) was his whole reason to use LVDS in the first place. but i may be wrong on that. Your not missing anything. if you are saying that the PCI route is better then you may be right on that. but that's why I'm using a PCI/USB card in my PC.(just a cheap one) I'd be interested in being pointed in the right direction for I2S direct from a sound card. sounds good take care Javier I do understand that. Either way uses a driver, which is better?? good question, one day we may find out. Then the next day it may change. Shaun PCI/PCIe or usb? Both have issues, both use drivers. who knows? Have you tried different network cable for LVDS transmission? Or different lenghts? It's just a thought..... If usb has differences with cable lenghts/quality then I wonder about the LVDS system. Allan
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 8:41:04 GMT
''Shaun PCI/PCIe or usb? Both have issues, both use drivers. who knows? Have you tried different network cable for LVDS transmission? Or different lenghts? It's just a thought..... If usb has differences with cable lenghts/quality then I wonder about the LVDS system.'' Allan Hi Allan good questions and points raised Agreed both PCI/USB do have issues but maybe it's more about trying to find ways to minimize them. yup tried CAT5 and 6 but to be honest i can't really hear the difference between them. i use CAT6 ATM but that's just really because it happens to be the right length 8M. I've also tried different lengths of CAT5 6 cable from 1m to 10m and likewise i can't tell the difference. I'm not saying that there are no differences but to my ears they seem to be pretty small (undetectable) and certainly not the GROSS differences i hear comparing long 5M and short 0.6M USB cables. i did plenty of experimenting when i first used the Teleporters as i had lock issues with the Buffalo. that later turned out to be Ground potential problems between the transport and DAC which is why i mentioned that to you earlier. SQ differences between short USB direct (Via WAVEIO) to DAC and Teleprters + CAT well i can't hear any difference and if there are any they must be small or my hearing is getting bad in my old age (IMOA). I've found that one of the big advantages of using the Teleporters is the isolation that it gives the DAC from the PC's ground. so no tweeting bird sounds or any other unpleasantness just silence. my money SQ wise is on short USB and long CAT because that is the best combination that i can fine at the moment. short USB and long CAT seem to have much less effect on the sound IMHO than Mr long USB. but we all know that can change. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 9:46:44 GMT
Hi Allan ''Usb up to now has been so so, motherboard audio is (make your own statement), spdif from motherboard same, soundcards, analogue can be quite good and improving, spdif out on soundcard generally better. Problem is, with soundcard spdif, is i2s is converted to spdif, and this has it's issues, same as decoding it. So why not take i2s direct out??? because it's only good for a distance of 4 to 6 inches, then it can fall out of sync between lines. i2s was originally designed for on-board data transmission between components. spdif was designed for transmission of his data to the outside world, If the LVDS's can keep the signals in sync with each other then a major part of the problem is solved for i2s. Whether it is better is yet to be seen/heard.'' sorry i missed these points. my teleporters have been a little lonely so it's nice to have some company for them. I'll just drop this part in again as i find it interesting. ''Problem is, with soundcard spdif, is i2s is converted to spdif, and this has it's issues, same as decoding it. So why not take i2s direct out??? because it's only good for a distance of 4 to 6 inches, then it can fall out of sync between lines. i2s was originally designed for on-board data transmission between components. spdif was designed for transmission of his data to the outside world,'' once i had decided to go down the USB output route which was really hastened when i had a listen to Johns Hiface. i started to think on it a little more. a USB SPDIF converter goes USB/I2S/SPDIF mmmmmmmmmm seems like i could loose the I2S to SPDIF part of the conversion process and just go USB/I2S. so in a way i ended up with USB/I2S just as a way of reducing the number of processes. then as luck would have it the Teleporter came out just as i was about to shoe horn my PC into Hifi rack. now that got me interested. ''If the LVDS's can keep the signals in sync with each other then a major part of the problem is solved for i2s. Whether it is better is yet to be seen/heard''. yes i totally agree with the above. i remember reading that the propagation delay measured on the teleporters was said to be pretty low ( I'll find the measurement for that and post back). which may go a little way to answer the question of I2S SYNC issues. the Teleporters do seem to have a few issues (grounding and sensitivity to DC on the mains) but nothing that can't be overcome with a little work. are they perfect? no but what is. however they are the best solution to my needs/wants that I've found so far and stretch the usability of I2S a little further IMHO. the thing is to keep trying different things with an open mind until the right solution for each individual comes along. I don't know Russ so no advertising but I'm pretty happy with his Teleporters. sorry for going on a little but I've been using Teleporters for a while now. so anyone fancy a ramble take care
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 20, 2012 10:12:57 GMT
Shaun Actually that's quite interesting hearing that the length of cable on the LVDS doesn't make that much difference. My concern was about the sync of the signals over a long length of cable. So it seems to achieve what it was suppose to do.
You can also get cat5e/6 in solid core cable too.... Mainly used in fixed installs.
Allan
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 10:21:47 GMT
Shaun Actually that's quite interesting hearing that the length of cable on the LVDS doesn't make that much difference. My concern was about the sync of the signals over a long length of cable. So it seems to achieve what it was suppose to do. You can also get cat5e/6 in solid core cable too.... Mainly used in fixed installs. Allan Hi Allan the longest CAT I've tried was 10M and as i say if there where differences they where small enough to be undetectable to my ears. CAT5/6 is pretty cheap so you may want to have a play with length. start with 1M and then try the length that you require. I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on that as the more we have the more we know. just out of interest how are you planing to power the Teleporters? especially the PC end solid core mmm I've not tried that but it's worth thinking on. yup Teleporters seem to do what it says on the tin IMHO take care
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 20, 2012 11:31:35 GMT
Shaun Actually that's quite interesting hearing that the length of cable on the LVDS doesn't make that much difference. My concern was about the sync of the signals over a long length of cable. So it seems to achieve what it was suppose to do. You can also get cat5e/6 in solid core cable too.... Mainly used in fixed installs. Allan Hi Allan the longest CAT I've tried was 10M and as i say if there where differences they where small enough to be undetectable to my ears. CAT5/6 is pretty cheap so you may want to have a play with length. start with 1M and then try the length that you require. I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on that as the more we have the more we know. just out of interest how are you planing to power the Teleporters? especially the PC end solid core mmm I've not tried that but it's worth thinking on. yup Teleporters seem to do what it says on the tin IMHO take care Hi Shaun Cat5e is very usefull for me.... Pre-twisted decent quality cable good for signal hookups, and low power too. Dirt cheap for me, I use old failed patch cables. Beware cat5e/6 solid core, as, it's not very flexible, being you bend it a few time it will break.... Anything in audio line I power with low noise low impedance power supplies. Have done for a while now. Although I do test ideas with normal psu's
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Post by gommer on Nov 20, 2012 12:18:18 GMT
One more about the Teleporters (had to google it, lucky i could link it to LVDS, which helped).
Russ spec'ed them at 55ps jitter. This would be far more than reclocked signals (discrete reclock, with clock directly taken from Amanero XO's).
Cheers, Marc
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 12:54:51 GMT
One more about the Teleporters (had to google it, lucky i could link it to LVDS, which helped). Russ spec'ed them at 55ps jitter. This would be far more than reclocked signals (discrete reclock, with clock directly taken from Amanero XO's). Cheers, Marc Hi Marc good point and why I'm so interested in trying to re clock after the Teleporters at the DAC end of the chain. just waiting for a good way to do that. TBH the ESS9018 has it's own way of dealing with jitter and 55ps should not be much of a problem. I'm interested in reclocking just to hear what it does. with other DAC's it may be different though. yes i agree let's move the Teleporter stuff to another thread. i only raised it because I'm using one with the Amanero. take care
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Post by gommer on Nov 20, 2012 21:57:54 GMT
This thread starts with all relevant posts from the Amanero thread and will probably lead it's own life afterwards.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 22:10:05 GMT
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 21, 2012 8:35:59 GMT
One more about the Teleporters (had to google it, lucky i could link it to LVDS, which helped). Russ spec'ed them at 55ps jitter. This would be far more than reclocked signals (discrete reclock, with clock directly taken from Amanero XO's). Cheers, Marc Hi Marc 1-, thanks for moving the posts. 2,- 55ps jitter hmmm DIR9001 receiver has 50ps jitter but only 24/96 capable, WM8804 similar but 24/192, CS receivers forget them ;D. But these being spdif receivers, they are recovering the i2s from spdif, how well it the question. Or is some damage done converting the data to spdif in the first place? I had thought about using the WM8804 to transmit spdif from a cdplayer or pc sound card, ie i2s in spdif out. Allan
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Post by gommer on Nov 21, 2012 12:38:32 GMT
Hi Alan,
S/PDIF has always been more jittery than direct I2S or ASYNC USB.
Especially with Async USB, the USB to I2S converter can generate it's own pace and a very good local clock can then really shine, if this is also the source for the DAC.
In the case of the Amanero board, the XO is still processed through the CPLD. That's why a reclock, clocked directly from the master XO could be benificial. A discrete flipflop , close to the DAC, would only add a few ps of jitter and you would end with total jitter (at DAC master clock input) in the 10-20ps range, possibly even lower, all depending on the quality of the master XO.
Marc
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 14:59:19 GMT
Connecting a Teleporter to a Xonar ST would be a piece of cake thanks to its H6 daughter card connector (inside red rectangle): The pin out is as follows: 01) op amp -ve 02) 03) op amp +ve 04) analog/digital ground 05) digital power supply (Vdd) 06) 07) 08) MC (pcm1976) 09) MDO (pcm1976) 10) 11) 12) 13) RST (pcm1976) 14) 15) 16) SCK (pcm1976) 17) BCK (pcm1976) 18) LRCK (pcm1976) 19) 20) DATA (pcm1976 right dac) 21) DATA (pcm1976 left dac) 22) DATA (pcm1976 middle dac) 23) 24) 25) Addenda:-"Pin 19 (as originally labelled in the initial post - as opposed to the real pin configuration) is the all-important LR data stream If you additionally ground pins 10 and 12 (again, based on the pin assignment in the original post) then, voila!, the Xonar will think the daughterboard is attached and give you unadulterated 7.1 Surround I2S out of the 25 pin header on the motherboard. Hook up a few Buffalo DACs and you're in surround sound heaven!"- (source: www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/138585-xonar-deluxe-pin-outs.html )
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Nov 21, 2012 23:23:42 GMT
Hi marc There is a azuentech x-meridian that has i2s pinouts to IIRC But trying get relevant info out of them is hopeless..
Asus use rebadged cmedia chipsets, and there's a lot of cheap Cmedia based sound cards out there, but for i2s available as pinouts, except on the all singing all dancing whiz bang expensive ones, isn't available.
One other thing I just noticed about soundcards, is the frequencies available. They all seem to do 44k1, 48k, 96k, 192k. No mention of 88k2, 176k4..
Seem's usb might still be the most versatile
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