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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 12:44:49 GMT
Hi Leo Here’s the state of play so far Hi Leo Here’s the state of play so far I borrowed the case and Salas just to have a quick listen. My wife gets a little nervous of my bread board efforts so it keeps her on side. I keep telling hear that it’s actually safer and easier in the open but well hay ho. After giving the 5102 a good run out I noticed a distinct improvement in treble quality. It’s still smooth but much more open and I’m wondering if it could be the caps running in especially those Oscon which I’ve read can take a little time to form. Anyhow I gave the DAC the wife test this morning with a track that she knows and likes AIR – MOON SAFARI-YOU MAKE IT EASY. As soon as she sat in the listening chair she said ‘’sounds different to the other one''. ''The vocals are a little more recessed but it sounds really nice and smooth''. ''The vocals sound real and I could listen to that all day without a headache''. The other one is my Buffalo3 BTW She was even more impressed when I told her how little it cost and how quick it was to build. I’m going to do a PSU re visit just to make sure I’ve dot missed something with the caps If I was new to DIY and built this DAC I’d be pretty chuffed with the performance level and the low cost of this unit. Outstanding. Take care
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Will
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Post by Will on Nov 24, 2012 13:49:14 GMT
Hi Shaun, Javier,
The B32s is an all in one effort, so the IV stage is built in, which has a balanced output. You can use this for SE by taking +ve and GND from each channel, but you get better S/N (apparently) by using the little circuit which I posted. That circuit, incidentally, is just the TP ballsie lite re-done the way I want it, so I can use one LME49710 per channel, rather than using a dual opamp as per the current ballsie.
The layout is quite old (started in 2011) and not finished yet, so still a bit of work to do. As for supply, +/-15V would be best. That does complicate things in but you can start with a cheap supply, and improve in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 14:45:41 GMT
Hi Shaun, Javier, The B32s is an all in one effort, so the IV stage is built in, which has a balanced output. You can use this for SE by taking +ve and GND from each channel, but you get better S/N (apparently) by using the little circuit which I posted. That circuit, incidentally, is just the TP ballsie lite re-done the way I want it, so I can use one LME49710 per channel, rather than using a dual opamp as per the current ballsie. The layout is quite old (started in 2011) and not finished yet, so still a bit of work to do. As for supply, +/-15V would be best. That does complicate things in but you can start with a cheap supply, and improve in the future. Hi Will yes i do seem to remember reading that the B32 was all in one as you say. as you've noted taking just one half of the balance OP may not be as good as converting to SE with the Ballsie. yup agreed start with the cheapest option and work up. saves tears if anything should go wrong. do you have a circuit design for the the above board? I'd like to have a try at etching one for a future project? yes i could pick through the traces but that can lead to mistakes. I'm going to investigate some cheap circuit board design software but not eagle as the lack of competence on my part just made my head spin. any suggestions for simple one sided and maybe two sided max board design software? take care
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Will
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Post by Will on Nov 24, 2012 17:02:48 GMT
Hi Shaun, I've just emailed you the circuit. On pcb software, I've only looked at designspark, which is RS's pcb software. I'd already gotten used to Eagle by then, so didn't persevere. It's worth giving Eagle a try. Just try and do something dead simple first, like a 78xx based reg pcb. There are loads of resources on the net, and also at the end of an email
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 20:45:58 GMT
Shaun, I've been told the new version of DiyLayoutCreator is quite good. I've only used the original version as the new requires Java and I can't get the two talk to each other on my laptop. Apparently Java 7 is a no go anyway but 6 should work....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2012 0:03:20 GMT
Hi Will/Chris
thanks for the info it's much appreciated.
Will I'm sure that eagle is good software but I'm looking for something as simple as possible to sort out some etch artwork.
i'm a little way behind on PC work and take time to learn new skills.
I'll have a poke around the net and see what i can find.
thanks again
take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 16:12:33 GMT
Hi Leo I've been using the ''Marmite'' for a few days now and must say it seems to have improved with age. can't help wondering how good the PPL mode is and how much effect it's having on the SQ. i think that it may be time to add a clock to see what that does. sounding pretty good take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 26, 2012 22:19:57 GMT
Hi Shaun, Nice build Interesting regarding the comparison against your BIII. Theres a few XO's on ebay including those Vanguard jobs, not sure if those are any good or not. For the dac caps I'm tempted by the gnats poo if I have any left, its a little more awkward getting them close to the pins with the type of socket used . Cheers, Leo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 22:32:12 GMT
Hi Leo I don't know about that frequency or the application they are used in, but I got great results in the X-DAC V3 using a Vanguard 1PPM TCXO, and even better results with the .3PPM version powered by a Cricket. The 1PPM version is now in another Sydney member's similarly modified X-DAC V3 and he reported similar gains, but not quite as good in a direct comparison with the .3PPM TCXO where hi res benefitted more. Regards Alex
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 26, 2012 22:45:23 GMT
Thanks Alex, they are pretty cheap so I may give them a go, the tighter tol ones are only a little more expensive The forums running like s**t for me my end again
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 23:07:05 GMT
Thanks Alex, they are pretty cheap so I may give them a go, the tighter tol ones are only a little more expensive The forums running like s**t for me my end again Leo In the case of the X-DAC V3, it uses a DIR1703E which may have an advantage over the replacement DIR9001 in that it can use the XO in combination with the PLL section, not just as a simple reference, so with closer tolerance caps in the filter circuit and a highly accurate XO, this may well outperform the later 9001 ? . Regards Alex
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 26, 2012 23:40:15 GMT
Alex, Once optimized I'd say it would be quite a step up over the dir9001 . The 1703e is a nice device ,better potential than the 9001
Leo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 0:04:54 GMT
Hi Shaun, Nice build Interesting regarding the comparison against your BIII. Theres a few XO's on ebay including those Vanguard jobs, not sure if those are any good or not. For the dac caps I'm tempted by the gnats poo if I have any left, its a little more awkward getting them close to the pins with the type of socket used . Cheers, Leo Hi Leo/Alex yes i did have a look round on Ebay and noticed the Vanguard one you mentioned. for the PSU I'm planning to use that little Birthday 3V3 Tent shunt so i just thought what the heck and ordered a Tent XO. I had a quick look at the 5102 DATA sheet and ordered the following. www.tentlabs.com/Components/XO/index.htmlXO Module XO Module Freq. 49.1520MHz which looks about optimum and the price is only a little more than the eBay jobbies once postage comes into it. at least the quality should be good and it avoids some of the are they genuine pitfalls of eBay orders. should work quite well with the shunt and may be useful for other projects later(the shunt sure will be) so now as usual I'm pretty much in the dark as to implementation. MR Tent provides ferrite beads and i know that they go in between shunt OP and XO. but on Will's PK i notice that a resistor was used between XO OP and DAC Mclk IP. if that makes sense.(it has a name which i can't remember ATM) the Shunt has a pre soldered cap on the OP so no worries on that front. the example circuit provided by Guido on his web site uses a 47R but that seems a little low to me. on the gnats poo patric seems to use on the following DVDD-DGND and DGND-LDOO he looks like he is using an 805 between CPVDD - CPGND just for size to bridge CAPP. It looks like a 805 but i may be wrong. most likely all 2U2 i suspect. if you have non left then maybe we can share an order to Farnell. let me know as I'm up for trying them. tight getting them on the pins as you say but I'm pretty sure i can get close. on the clock I'll have a read around but any help greatly appreciated. take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 27, 2012 0:17:01 GMT
Currently on the android pad so excuse rushing. Those tent xo's are very good indeed, used with the shunt reg should be hard to better. Just make sure you use the right frequencies to match your setup.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 0:26:47 GMT
Shaun I have used as high as 100R with the TCXO for the X-DAC V3. I don't think it is normally that critical. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 1:01:35 GMT
Currently on the android pad so excuse rushing. Those tent xo's are very good indeed, used with the shunt reg should be hard to better. Just make sure you use the right frequencies to match your setup. OK so now I'm a little confused. after another look at the DATA sheet i think i may need the 45MHz clock. but it's all new to me and after a little more reading I'm less confused for example if i just want to play 44.1 88.2 176.4 then i can use one clock 45.1584MHz if i want to play 48 96 192 384 i need two clocks 45.1584MHz and 49.1520MHz hey looks like there is a relationship between sampling frequency and clock frequency. i did know the above already but putting it into practice is a whole new world to me. I've read about dividing down to the correct frequency but now it becomes a little clearer. trouble is i have 96KHz files that I'd love to try. the Tent clocks are plug in DIL types so i may end up ordering two and just swapping as and when. i have plans for the 49.1520 PK wise later so it wont be wasted i tend to learn more by doing so excuse the ignorance. just getting started. take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 27, 2012 8:12:39 GMT
Hi Shaun, I also first typed the wrong one so deleted I want to try 45.1584MHz XO with the dac and use a divider to give 11.2896MHz for the QA550. (thanks to patric for sharing what he tried) The QA550 is limited to 44.1 so i'll try other stuff later. Im mainly interested to see if a decent external xo makes a worthwhile improvement. If not it keeps things more simple for others cheers leo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 10:26:26 GMT
Hi Shaun, I also first typed the wrong one so deleted I want to try 45.1584MHz XO with the dac and use a divider to give 11.2896MHz for the QA550. (thanks to patric for sharing what he tried) The QA550 is limited to 44.1 so I'll try other stuff later. Im mainly interested to see if a decent external xo makes a worthwhile improvement. If not it keeps things more simple for others cheers leo Hi Leo Yup agreed but for me it makes no real difference if the new clock improves the sound or not.(it would be a bonus if it did) when i first looked at those clock frequencies on the chart i just went for the max F. ::)wrong takes a while for Mr brain to engage sometimes unsurprisingly i found the Buffalo so much easier to build but then someone else had done all of the work for me on that. just to be clear IMHO the Buf is waaaaay better than this little DAC but I'd expect it to be given the price difference. as a first time project for a novice like me the 5102 is a great project with a nice sound at the end of it. I'm pretty green with digital so having the chance to build a decent clock unit which i can easily change F's for other projects is the thing. if it works without smoke then that will be great TBH the DATA sheets are a bit of a mystery in some parts so reading through that who bunch of numbers on a chart actually has some meaning to me now. I've learned something new and that is the real result and as i said i learn by doing. i think that the 5102 sounds pretty decent as is so I'm not expecting the earth to move with the new clock but it will be interesting to hear what gives. thanks to Alex's superb Class A pre/PA I'm not planning on changing that any time soon so time to learn some new basic skills. I'm really having fun doing something new and as a first time prototyping exercise the Marmite is top of the class. i slept through Digital at college because at the time i held no interest for me. boy do i wish that I'd listened a little more now but i was a little younger then (35) so it's never to late. thanks for the guidance it's appreciated. I've ordered up both clocks (happy Birthday to err me ) to get the basics working and then by adding more as required I'll have a good quality stand alone module to use in the future. it's a win, win. sure it's a little expensive but so is trying a few cheaper ones and then wondering what the tent sounds like. Birthdays are good like that the 5102 is a pretty impressive DAC especially for the little cash involved so all good. the big spends are all re usable with other projects so nothing wasted. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 11:25:25 GMT
Hi All just a quick snap shot of where I am now Hope it helps please note that the above refers to pin connections and does not reflect the true position of the pins on the chip. hope that makes sense but a quick reference to the DATA sheet should help in that regard. just a way of drawing without the spaghetti Take care
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Post by levent81 on Nov 28, 2012 16:37:45 GMT
Hi shaun,
Did you make the circuit and all things in the picture???
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 23:05:33 GMT
Hi shaun, Did you make the circuit and all things in the picture??? Not sure what you mean but the circuit is pretty much as published in the 5102 DATA sheet with some changes in cap values. the layout was one that i found on the net in the public domain and just re drew it to suit my needs. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 15:00:10 GMT
Hi All So I’ve just fitted the Tent clock and shunt reg to Leo's 5102 Marmite DAC. Interesting. The Tent XO and shunt are plug in so plenty of room to try other PSU arrangements and XO frequencies without tooo much stress. The XO board is self-etched and I used PCB Wizard to produce the artwork. Oh PC Wizard is a cool piece of software. Nice and easy to used (just as well) and good for quick results with basic circuits. People may notice that just in front of the shunt there is a component gap. I put that in just in case I wanted to get further decoupling nearer the clock which I may need with other PSU. Made a few boards up for generic use and I have one planed for Will’s PK which could be interesting. And yes I can hear an obvious difference. It sounds much more top to bottom clarity which allows more fine detail to come through. Soundstage is a little bigger but with more front to back depth and better focus. Top end seems to be more extended but without any sign of harshness and the bass is a little more tuneful without losing depth or slam. To me before the clock went in the bass could sound a little one note but after the XO it’s much more tuneful. So It has the same velvet sound balance but more in the way of PRAT. The Tent Clock and shunt may be a little overkill compared to the inexpensive nature of the DAC but its all modular and can be used for other projects So no big deal on that (Chong it’s a little cheaper than the Burston that you are looking at). The Tent XO/shunt seems like a good unit and has worked wonders in Leo’s nice little DAC. In context I think that the 5102 Marmite could live in the company of much, much more expensive kit so all gravy. A great little DAC and a nice contrast to Will’s superb PK which I’m intending to treat to a 49 MHz unit with a trident shunt (Waiting for that to arrive so I’ll keep you all posted on that). So now I have some cap fiddling to do but TBH I’m in no rush on that front. I like it a lot and I’ve had a great time learning something new. Thanks Leo take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2012 23:05:30 GMT
Hi Shaun A suggestion. Try making a slightly extended version of the PCB that can take both the smaller Xtal Oscillators and the larger TCXO's Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 0:57:28 GMT
Hi Shaun A suggestion. Try making a slightly extended version of the PCB that can take both the smaller Xtal Oscillators and the larger TCXO's Kind Regards Alex Hi Alex good thinking and one i will be looking into i may also just re work the PCB and make a few more boards. a couple for each type which would not be too much work. i was also thinking on the merits of moving the reg a little closer to the clock but I'd need to mount any clock bypass cap under the board. I have some rather large nice box Polly's left in my parts box but they do use up space a little. I'm going to try a 3v3 Trident next just to compare the regs which ATM are on 3 pin female headers. I'd like to try one of the Vanguard clocks just to make a comparison so I'll have a look into that also. one question are they 3V3 or 5V units? so right now I'm still in the ''bloody hell it works stage''but i did have fun with the PCB software and etch. so dead chuffed. take care
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 1:44:38 GMT
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