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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:23:37 GMT
Maybe if you lay out the ingredients and method some of the peeps may be able and willing to tell us lesser mortals know how to go about it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 18:40:12 GMT
you could have a snoop on the net and find some DIY version of the TI DSD1793 IC and post any interesting results here. Boy have I searched!! there is absolutely nothing. The cheapest DSD DAC there is available is the TPA Opus at $75. The problem with it is that it needs a BAL->SE stage and the IVY plus PS increase the cost a further $169 plus 15V traffo. The beauty of the DSD1793 is, like the PCM5102 or the ES9023, it is a full SE voltage chip like the PCM5102 or the ES9023 so no need for I/V and/or BAL->SE stages, it outputs full 2.1Vrms. Designing a DAC based on it is a little more complicated than a PCM only obe due to the need of software mode, grounding unused pins and external opamp based low pass filter. The software mode can be easily adressed connecting the SDA and SDL pins of the DSD1793 to the Amanero's I2C pins and the commands programmed using the GUI of the I2C tools. The grounding of unused pins would be solved by using to 8 legged swtiches triggered by the Amanero's DSDOE pin. When in I2S mode the unused DSD pins will be grounded and the other way around when in DSD mode. Low pass filter needs a little circuit with a 2 channel opamp but if a low voltage part is used (OPA2227) no additional PS will be necessary. As to power, it would need 3.3V for digital and 5V for analogue. the 3.3V output pin on the Amanero board header could provide the digital power (a dedicated PS would of course be better SQ wise) so it could work with only a 5V PS. This could be a basic approximation: [/IMG]
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 23:39:14 GMT
Hi Javier take a look at the DATA sheet for the DSD1793 and see what circuits they have published. if it's a one stop chip like the 5102 or ess9023 then maybe the circuit will be simple. what's with the low pass filter is it recommended (needed) or optional? testing time coming up on the Marmite. now where did i leave those asbestos gloves? take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 9:01:02 GMT
The data sheet doesn't say if the LPF/Buffer is optional or mandatory, it just shows an example and says how to calculate the values of the resistors and caps. All DACs I know based on the PCM1793 (my Musiland 02 or Aune's T1 for example) have an opamp as LPF/Buffer so probably is safer bet to use one.
Contrary to the ES9023 or PCM5102, the PCM is designed for having separate power supplies for digital and analogue though there is an example with the chip working on a single PS. The need for the I2S/DSD switches further complicates it a little more.
On the plus side, using MCLK from the Amanero (sync mode) would have simplified the design and reduced the cost as no local XO would have been needed.
Unfortunately, even using the DSD1793 getting DSD isn't as easy as PCM only, this project is way beyond what I can do. There are many very important areas like ground planes, line routing, etc. about which I don't have the slightest clue. It was more of a pipe dream than anything else, though I still believe it would have been a great idea as no one else is offering a universal cheap DAC.
Good luck with the Marmite!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 15:39:00 GMT
Hi ALL well is the Marmite on toast or not? drum roll it works yep i know after 25 years of bodging it should all be a piece of cake but for me i still have the pre switch on nerves and post switch on relief (or panic). TBH it was a 3 hour build as i had a spare I2S board (tenor based) and 317 reg board to hand. that work we did with Will on his PK really paid of with this and the chip went on nicely using the flood and suck method. the experience gained with the PK made this sooo much easier so thanks Will for giving me the chance to have a go with SMD. OK some quick thoughts on the sound with stunt HP through Neco portable. OK the top end has a slightly scratchy, grainy sound at the moment but I'm suspecting that the basic PSU may have something to do with that and also the stunts. the mids oooooooooh that was a surprise. really nice and fluid with a decent amount of detail and very smooth. vocal especially nice and well separated from the mix. musical in a word the Bass well not quite as deep as the PK but still pretty good and nice and tuneful. Leo i see what you mean about the presentation. very NOS but better than most that I've heard. the mid especially has a nice smooth richness to it that I'm sure going to like.(hot chocolate with whipped cream) i have played around with the filter settings and much prefer the low latency one at the moment with t'other sounding a little flat, lifeless and Grey by comparison. so tomorrow I'll try using a JLH to see what that does SQ wise and of course post some pickies. it will be interesting to see how much more this DAC is capable of but for a first time project it's a great learning tool. if i can do it then believe me anyone can. @ £10 it's a steal and way better than the price tag suggests. thanks Leo (BTW i see that RG have beaten those AOS sloths again ) Ian deserves a mention for his great posts on JK DAC32 which kept me interested. thanks Ian take care
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Will
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Post by Will on Nov 22, 2012 20:37:54 GMT
The beauty of the DSD1793 is, like the PCM5102 or the ES9023, it is a full SE voltage chip like the PCM5102 or the ES9023 so no need for I/V and/or BAL->SE stages, it outputs full 2.1Vrms. Designing a DAC based on it is a little more complicated than a PCM only obe due to the need of software mode, grounding unused pins and external opamp based low pass filter. The software mode can be easily adressed connecting the SDA and SDL pins of the DSD1793 to the Amanero's I2C pins and the commands programmed using the GUI of the I2C tools. The grounding of unused pins would be solved by using to 8 legged swtiches triggered by the Amanero's DSDOE pin. When in I2S mode the unused DSD pins will be grounded and the other way around when in DSD mode. Low pass filter needs a little circuit with a 2 channel opamp but if a low voltage part is used (OPA2227) no additional PS will be necessary. As to power, it would need 3.3V for digital and 5V for analogue. the 3.3V output pin on the Amanero board header could provide the digital power (a dedicated PS would of course be better SQ wise) so it could work with only a 5V PS. This could be a basic approximation: [/IMG] [/quote] Hi Javier, The next step for me is understanding software control, and how to setup up dacs at power in this fashion. The amanero is a good stepping stone in understanding it, I think. Looking at your post, I'd approach this idea as follows. First, ditch thoughts about switching between dsd/i2s, reclocking, output filters, etc and concentrate on getting the dsd9173 working with a dsd input. Use something like Leo and Shaun have used with their TI dac, and solder a dsd1973 to it. Use a LM7805 for the 5V supply, and tag a LE33 reg on the ouptut from that for the 3v3 supply (feed these from a 9V battery for ease). Use appropriate caps for decoupling, connect the I2C, and power up. See how that goes, and then add a stage at a time. Try the output filter, then dsd/i2s switching. Once all this works, then it's time for worrying about ground planes and traces By doing the small steps, it'll be easier to figure out what's wrong. It won't look perfect, but you'll end up with a working circuit that could then be transferred to a pcb. I really wish I had more time to look into this, as it'd be really interesting to do
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 23:28:34 GMT
Hi Javier Will's dead right if you strip it back to the bare minimum and add things in once you have it working it will be a simpler process. it also makes it much easier find errors in the build if there are any. breaking things down and building modules which then add up to what you want is cool also easier on the pocket otherwise it's like trying to eat the whole cake at once when just a slice will give you an idea of the flavor. I've had a look at the DATA sheet for the 1793 and it looks like the ''OP filter'' is a pretty standard Buffer/LP. the buffer is just there to help the DAC drive longer cables and the LP filter well everyone seems to add those. you may not need either. but i may be wrong so other opinions welcome Will has it spot on KISS (''keep it simple stupid'' just to avoid and translational miss understanding ) i use the above rule whenever i can. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 9:16:49 GMT
I've Googled for supplier but it seems only Mouser stocks them and the shipping cost are crazy unless the order is >65€, plus they don't ship by USMS, only courrier so 100% sure it'll go through customs and pay import dutties plus VAT. Unless anyone qualifies for TI's free samples program and is willing to ask for some samples on my behalf it is "no way Jose" for this project. Last time I asked for free samples I was told they don't send to public mail services accounts, It looks like they will only send to domains with company names or at least something that is not gmail type.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 9:31:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 9:59:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 10:02:50 GMT
Javier It looks like it would be very hard to make it do both DSD and PCM. Have you considered just doing DSD ? Alex
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 10:42:54 GMT
Hi All Here is my ‘’Marmite or I Marmite not’’ build.quick and dirty style. ;D I just could not resist popping a JLH in last night and the resulting sound was more fluid and musical. I also plugged in my K701 which helped me get a better idea of the SQ and the course top end vanished. This DAC really does seem to major on music first and last. True it does not go all the way down the detail mine but goes far enough to be satisfying. It does seem present the music in a natural and unforced way which is pretty unusual in a world of Ultra detail and the expense of musical integrity. I like it so far and still have some things to play with. When I was listening one word kept popping into my head. TUBES I’m not saying that this sounds like a tube DAC no far from it but the Tonal balance and presentation could be nice with bottles. It would be interesting to hear it through a nice SE amp just to see what gives. Mmm I have an Aikido pre which I could dig out for a listen which could be interesting. I also have some TJ mesh plate 45’s that I’ve been thinking of building something around which could be fun to do and something I’ve not done here before. The DAC is starting to sound pretty good How do they get that sort of performance out of such a small beast and at such a low price? So time to get it hooked up to the main system. Nice DAC Leo Good call. Hi Javier those adapter boards should be available from Ebay and not tooo expensive. the one i used for this DAC was less than £1. Alex is right you could just start with DSD and then add the bells and whistles after it's up and running. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 10:51:53 GMT
That would be exactly my intention if I gather the courage to go ahead. Doing both PCM and DSD requires two things: using software mode and finding a way to ground unused pins each time there is a format change. Software mode can be dealt with rather easily using the Amanero as a micro controller, it has a tool that saves to the cards flash memory I2C commands responding to events like "on start", "on DSD", "on 44.1", etc. so every time on of those events takes place the Amanero sends through the I2C bus the previously programmed commands to the chip to change its configuration like you would do with a PIC, it is even possible to chain this commands whcih is quite interesting for things like inserting a temporal mute state when chancging formats to avoid "pops" or DC on output. No one has tested it yet but Domenico is usually very helpful and I don't think there will be any problems in this area. This is how the tool looks like: The grounding unused pins is a little more complicated because two switches are required. I found a way to do it in a Japanese web, the pic shows a complicated twin mono configuration but should give an idea of how to do it: In the picture it shows how "DSD_H" (voltage present) is used to open one of the swtiches and close the other which are wired opposite, when no voltage is present in "DSD_H" the situation reverse. Interestingly, the DACs used in this example are the DSD1794A which is almost identical to the DSD1793 input wise.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 12:52:34 GMT
Hi Javier why not use the 1974A if you have something that may work circuit wise? if you go ahead with the 1793 in the above circuit then it could be wise to check each of the DATA sheets just to make sure you've not missed something. do have a go. you'll get plenty of help here. take care so I've plugged the 5102 into the main system and tried the AIkido. this DAC does seem to love tubes and gives a really pretty refined spacious and airy sound. the bass seems to have got a little better and the top end is now pretty smooth. but the Mid range is lovely velvet smooth especially with female vocals and well projected into a decently sized sound stage. height width and depth are all good pretty much a surprise for such a cheap little DAC. my original remarks still stand '' pretty NOS sounding'' but a good one rather than pants. OK time to hook up the Amanero. and then another reg i think. just one question Leo do you find that the 5102 takes a little longer than usual to warm up. I've found that it really hits it's stride after about half an hour or so. take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 13:08:41 GMT
The 1794 is a current output chip so it needs a I/V stage. It' ll complicate things further and increase the costs substantially. It is a much better performing part though.
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Post by pagan on Nov 23, 2012 13:15:08 GMT
[quote author=shaun but the Mid range is lovely velvet smooth especially with female vocals and well projected into a decently sized sound stage. height width and depth are all good pretty much a surprise for such a cheap little DAC. take care[/quote] Sounds like ideally suited for mp3 use... Allan
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 17:48:25 GMT
[quote author=shaun but the Mid range is lovely velvet smooth especially with female vocals and well projected into a decently sized sound stage. height width and depth are all good pretty much a surprise for such a cheap little DAC. take care Sounds like ideally suited for mp3 use... Allan[/quote] HA Allan you've obviously heard one then? ;D ;D cheap ain't always bad the ESS2093 demonstrated that quite well. I'm pretty new to all of this digital stuff so it's been fun and improved my SMD skills a little bit. ''Sounds like ideally suited for mp3 use...'' so is the Buffalo according to some so you may like it after all. ;D ;D ;D the 5102 based 32DAC that JK has produced is getting some pretty rave reviews (check out Ian's comments). Ok sure JK's implementation is most likely way better than my lash up but from Ian's description the flavor sounds the same. I'm sure that you will be interested to know that it sounds better still through the Amanero and may improve again with a Salas or the Tent Reg i have to try come my birthday. or have a play around with some of those caps which may improve things or not . i may even have the chance to learn a little about clocks and how to implement them nicely. so from such a small thing much learning can be had which is partly the point for me and all good for my future builds. yup this still needs work but it's getting to a place that i quite like and it's nice to have something on the go. shame it's just Leo and myself on this build. fancy joining me? ;D ;D please say yes take care
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leo
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Post by leo on Nov 23, 2012 23:08:41 GMT
Hi Shaun, I'm currently on the Galaxy tab which isn't fun to type on. Pleased to see you have the ole Marmite up and running, not bad for a cheapo is it Its certainly not perfect but must admit I've had fun with it. Not a bad sound at all. For i2s sources I lashed up a wm8804, CS8416 for SPDIF and then tried the modded QA550 SD players i2s out . For me the QA550 was easily the best. I do have a Hiface so may try i2s direct from that. don't think I have anything else suitable. BTW I also find it takes a while to sound its best, I thought it may be the caps I was using. Cheers, Leo
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Post by leo on Nov 23, 2012 23:22:13 GMT
The beauty of the DSD1793 is, like the PCM5102 or the ES9023, it is a full SE voltage chip like the PCM5102 or the ES9023 so no need for I/V and/or BAL->SE stages, it outputs full 2.1Vrms. Designing a DAC based on it is a little more complicated than a PCM only obe due to the need of software mode, grounding unused pins and external opamp based low pass filter. The software mode can be easily adressed connecting the SDA and SDL pins of the DSD1793 to the Amanero's I2C pins and the commands programmed using the GUI of the I2C tools. The grounding of unused pins would be solved by using to 8 legged swtiches triggered by the Amanero's DSDOE pin. When in I2S mode the unused DSD pins will be grounded and the other way around when in DSD mode. Low pass filter needs a little circuit with a 2 channel opamp but if a low voltage part is used (OPA2227) no additional PS will be necessary. As to power, it would need 3.3V for digital and 5V for analogue. the 3.3V output pin on the Amanero board header could provide the digital power (a dedicated PS would of course be better SQ wise) so it could work with only a 5V PS. This could be a basic approximation: [/IMG] [/quote] Hi Javier, The next step for me is understanding software control, and how to setup up dacs at power in this fashion. The amanero is a good stepping stone in understanding it, I think. Looking at your post, I'd approach this idea as follows. First, ditch thoughts about switching between dsd/i2s, reclocking, output filters, etc and concentrate on getting the dsd9173 working with a dsd input. Use something like Leo and Shaun have used with their TI dac, and solder a dsd1973 to it. Use a LM7805 for the 5V supply, and tag a LE33 reg on the ouptut from that for the 3v3 supply (feed these from a 9V battery for ease). Use appropriate caps for decoupling, connect the I2C, and power up. See how that goes, and then add a stage at a time. Try the output filter, then dsd/i2s switching. Once all this works, then it's time for worrying about ground planes and traces By doing the small steps, it'll be easier to figure out what's wrong. It won't look perfect, but you'll end up with a working circuit that could then be transferred to a pcb. I really wish I had more time to look into this, as it'd be really interesting to do [/quote] Top advice! I usually do this, it gives a good idea if the project has potential. Nothing worse than spending lots of time laying out boards if the thing doesn't perform as well as you'd hoped. Lash it up quick and dirty on vero/matrix and take it from there. Seems none of us have as much time for the old diy lately
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Post by leo on Nov 23, 2012 23:33:59 GMT
you could have a snoop on the net and find some DIY version of the TI DSD1793 IC and post any interesting results here. Boy have I searched!! there is absolutely nothing. The cheapest DSD DAC there is available is the TPA Opus at $75. The problem with it is that it needs a BAL->SE stage and the IVY plus PS increase the cost a further $169 plus 15V traffo. The beauty of the DSD1793 is, like the PCM5102 or the ES9023, it is a full SE voltage chip like the PCM5102 or the ES9023 so no need for I/V and/or BAL->SE stages, it outputs full 2.1Vrms. Designing a DAC based on it is a little more complicated than a PCM only obe due to the need of software mode, grounding unused pins and external opamp based low pass filter. The software mode can be easily adressed connecting the SDA and SDL pins of the DSD1793 to the Amanero's I2C pins and the commands programmed using the GUI of the I2C tools. The grounding of unused pins would be solved by using to 8 legged swtiches triggered by the Amanero's DSDOE pin. When in I2S mode the unused DSD pins will be grounded and the other way around when in DSD mode. Low pass filter needs a little circuit with a 2 channel opamp but if a low voltage part is used (OPA2227) no additional PS will be necessary. As to power, it would need 3.3V for digital and 5V for analogue. the 3.3V output pin on the Amanero board header could provide the digital power (a dedicated PS would of course be better SQ wise) so it could work with only a 5V PS. This could be a basic approximation: [/IMG] [/quote] The dac used in the opus is quite good, i knocked a full dac up on vero using the wm8741 . with the receiver,dac , output stages and psu it was quite complex on vero tbh but worked well enough. You could try the opus module and build the psu and output stage on vero so to keep costs down.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 23:57:51 GMT
Hi Shaun, I'm currently on the Galaxy tab which isn't fun to type on. Pleased to see you have the ole Marmite up and running, not bad for a cheapo is it Its certainly not perfect but must admit I've had fun with it. Not a bad sound at all. For i2s sources I lashed up a wm8804, CS8416 for SPDIF and then tried the modded QA550 SD players i2s out . For me the QA550 was easily the best. I do have a Hiface so may try i2s direct from that. don't think I have anything else suitable. BTW I also find it takes a while to sound its best, I thought it may be the caps I was using. Cheers, Leo Hi Leo not bad yes makes a nice change i found a good warm up is needed on my one also 1/2 hour to start singing. i had a play with it in SYNC mode to the Amanero but to me it lost a little of its magic that way so I'm back with ASYNC. had a play with my Glass House TVC which sounded pretty bad. not enough current from the DAC to drive them. the sound was pretty thin and anemic. The Hiface may be interesting if you can tap I2S from it then sounds like a plan to me. powered from battery with Mtec young DAC drivers that I've read are good for the hiface. i have one to break open but I'm letting my eyes recover a little from the chip squint. BTW i noticed a nice jump in clarity when i switched from the Teradac (i wonder if it works) unit to the Amanero. I've not tried the WAVEIO yet as I'm just playing with PSU. so the front end seems to matter. I've had some interesting results up-sampling to 24 and 32 (can't do that on a 1541A crown or no crown ;D). i had the Salas on it this evening and it's sounding pretty good. i bumped up the psu to 3.6V (maxed) and it seemed to tighten things up a little. with the Salas it has gained more than a little weight and definition in the Bass and a cleaner top end. I've also enjoyed the PRAT factor (for a better word) it's a little more dynamic than some NOS I've heard. (no not NOS but sounds a little like one) i ended up using the Low latency filter setting as it just sounded nicer that way. (the reason it sounds NOS?) more organic if you like with increased texture and body. did you notice that Patric is using the same 2u2 ceramic trick on his 5102 units? i may try that at some point but no rush on that front TBH I'm still surprised that it actually works. So all good stuff from a crazy cheap chip. how do they do it? are the AYA boards still available? i'll keep you posted take care
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 0:09:32 GMT
That is a tough decission Leo, on the one hand I'd like to play and learn the digital side playing with the DSD1793 and have the analogue taken care off by the chip but on the other hand the Opus is probably a safer bet though I'm afraid a vero board BAL->SE could seriously hamper performance of the WM8741. I'll give our Italian friend a little while, I believe he has something interesting up his sleeve at a very reasonable price. If it doesn't show up after a reasonable time then I'll take the DIY path. Thanks to both for your suggestions.
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Post by Will on Nov 24, 2012 10:01:40 GMT
You can use vero to prove and then use a 'proper' pcb if needed later. I'm doing a BAL->SE for my B32s that uses the 'metal jacket' LME49710HA. Should be able to build it up for £20 Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 10:59:23 GMT
WIll, isn't the B32 current output like the latest B2 or B3? Though I think I read somewhere had Ballsie but not sure if it was for your Buffalo or for another DAC? That board looks a fantastic and a great match also for the Opus, would it work and perform well with a 5V PS or it needs higher voltage to output 2Vrms? BTW, it looks you have an errata in the Right Bal input tag?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 11:00:29 GMT
Hi Will nice work and as you say not impossible on Var/Strip board. I'm a little unfamiliar with the workings of the B32 but i thought that Bal->se was built in. have you noticed the Zen-Cen circuit over on DIYA? source/195483-zen-cen-sen-evolution-minimalistic-iv-converter.html people have had some success with it but it appears a little PSU sensitive from what i read. take care
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