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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 10:22:42 GMT
That's me too Right now only 120gb on board with an old 50gb back up in a USB caddy. From monday, 500GB on board, 120 & 50 USB caddied back up.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 23, 2012 0:26:39 GMT
Yup, that will me too later. Now a 20GB 5400 rpm ATA IBM still working. I'm going to scoop up the 80GB 7200 rpm ATA WD from my spoilt Pentium 3 PC later. Btw, what dock you guys are using? Must be something not restricted to certain size HDD. Yup, all sizes forever will be best. I had looked around the computer mall and found most of them are up to a certain HDD size only and we have to "upgrade" again when game is over. Damn it! Game? I haven't install Diablo 3 yet although I bought it on launch day in Singapore! Damn X2! So any of you into PC games? Yup, while the boss is only away, btw!
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 23, 2012 0:31:44 GMT
Btw, Chris, you have the Win to install for your laptop with the higher cap 2.5"? I though laptop only can reinstall at the service centre? If can, I also want to try my luck when my laptop 2.5" goes as well. Wouldn't be so fast as it's Hitachi.
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 23, 2012 15:47:37 GMT
I found another American Buffalo NAS and External HDD brand locally today that's No. 1 in Japan. Have any of you guys have any experience with that brand? Goodnight as too sleepy to type any more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2012 12:53:48 GMT
Btw, Chris, you have the Win to install for your laptop with the higher cap 2.5"? I though laptop only can reinstall at the service centre? If can, I also want to try my luck when my laptop 2.5" goes as well. Wouldn't be so fast as it's Hitachi. Chong, To my limited knowledge the determining factor lies in the Bios. The original Bios on my lappy allowed up to 240GB. The most recent one that I installed goes far higher. I chose 500gb as my lappy is also limited to 5400 speed, so going up to 1TB or more may actually slow things down once it fills past 50%.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 1, 2012 4:01:48 GMT
Any idea what's the minumum REAL NAS CPU specs to have to run AV files wired without any jerk? Wifi still cannot do for hirez AV although hirez audio until 384-24 still can play. Full HD video file cannot thru Wifi without any freezing or jerkiness thru wirelss N.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 4:12:57 GMT
Perhaps Javier or Elysion can answer about the minimum technical requirements ? Just get SWMBO to play the files for you instead ! ;D
P.S. All in good fun!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 8:34:31 GMT
If you want real nice networking with low latency and high thoughput, provided you can, ditch Wifi and use cabled Gigabit, it costs peanuts and performance is orders of magnitude better, even if not optimized. When optimized they are just not comparable, like a bicycle against a F1. EDIT: As I know you are into extreme overkill, do a search for 10Gb Ethernet, that will surely give you peace of mind when it comes to streaming AV files though I warn you it comes at a price. Also you could build a storage role optimized quad Xeon E5-4600 server with a SAS2 Raid-0 array of SSD drives. This combined with 10Gb should be able to support close to 1GB (mind the capital "B" = 10xb) sustained transfer rate, in other words the full contents of an average BD in about 25 seconds or a DVD-A in less than 9.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 1, 2012 13:10:55 GMT
If you want real nice networking with low latency and high thoughput, provided you can, ditch Wifi and use cabled Gigabit, it costs peanuts and performance is orders of magnitude better, even if not optimized. When optimized they are just not comparable, like a bicycle against a F1. Oh, I'm really into that now (1 Gbs wired ethernet) as I discover that even Wireless N is just not good enough to avoid jerkiness and snail pace loading of 384-24 files before play. 48-24 loading is very fast though and feels just like normal loading. EDIT: As I know you are into extreme overkill, do a search for 10Gb Ethernet, that will surely give you peace of mind when it comes to streaming AV files though I warn you it comes at a price. Also you could build a storage role optimized quad Xeon E5-4600 server with a SAS2 Raid-0 array of SSD drives. This combined with 10Gb should be able to support close to 1GB (mind the capital "B" = 10xb) sustained transfer rate, in other words the full contents of an average BD in about 25 seconds or a DVD-A in less than 9. Can't do that now as out of job still and feeling super lazy. That's why I need to know the minimum requirement for a NAS CPU to perform the hirez AV tasks (384-24 and 4K at least for future proof) I have in mind. So I will just buy a bare minimum NAS CPU to do the job and to test until I'm richer for an all out assault on the SOTA AV computer network. So will a 500MHz Marvel Orion NAS CPU be enough for the stated? Yeah, I know most similar current NASs use an Intel Atom Duo Core 1.6GHz. Btw, I don't think RAID 0 is advisable as no mirroring or backup. My main reason for RAID is for the middle layer backup and uptime in mind. As Elysion had suggested, RAID1 or 5 or 10 will be more appropriate. I still need to investigate more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 17:18:59 GMT
Oh, I'm really into that now (1 Gbs wired ethernet) as I discover that even Wireless N is just not good enough to avoid jerkiness and snail pace loading of 384-24 files before play. 48-24 loading is very fast though and feels just like normal loading. To give you an idea, DVD tops at 9.8Mbps and Bluray at 1080p tops at 45Mbps with 6 24/96 PCM channels which is about as complicated as it gets. Fast Ethernet is 100Mbps so even considering TCP overhead so be aplenty. I have no idea about the bit rate of 4K as there is no commercial material available and have no idea of what kind of compression it'll use but Gigabit should accomodate it fine and still leave plenty of headroom. IMHO Wifi is fine for some tasks but it just doesn't cut it for some others like reliably streaming HQ video, the more Wifi devices in the network the worse. Can't do that now as out of job still and feeling super lazy. That's why I need to know the minimum requirement for a NAS CPU to perform the hirez AV tasks (384-24 and 4K at least for future proof) I have in mind. So I will just buy a bare minimum NAS CPU to do the job and to test until I'm richer for an all out assault on the SOTA AV computer network. So will a 500MHz Marvel Orion NAS CPU be enough for the stated? Yeah, I know most similar current NASs use an Intel Atom Duo Core 1.6GHz. Btw, I don't think RAID 0 is advisable as no mirroring or backup. My main reason for RAID is for the middle layer backup and uptime in mind. As Elysion had suggested, RAID1 or 5 or 10 will be more appropriate. I still need to investigate more. I was pulling your leg Chong, as an example, each E5-4650 CPU sales for around 4,000€ so in the system I mentioned you'd be facing 16,000€ only in processors, add to that some 128GB of RAM (a nice Supermicro board can take up to 1TB of registered RAM), the Mobo, a nice server chasis with good ventilation ans redundant PSs, a few fast SSD drives, a 10Gb network card and Switch and you'll be well north of 30,000€ for the complete system. As utterly pointless as it gets. I don't think you'll run into any speed trouble with any half decent wired Gigabit NAS. BTW, any RAID array will give you protection against disk failure but not against accidental erasing or overwriting. Bear in mind array rebuild times can be quite lenghty when using multiple Terabyte volumes, and I mean reall lenghty, as in many hours depending on disk and controller.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 2, 2012 2:56:33 GMT
Oh, I'm really into that now (1 Gbs wired ethernet) as I discover that even Wireless N is just not good enough to avoid jerkiness and snail pace loading of 384-24 files before play. 48-24 loading is very fast though and feels just like normal loading. To give you an idea, DVD tops at 9.8Mbps and Bluray at 1080p tops at 45Mbps with 6 24/96 PCM channels which is about as complicated as it gets. Fast Ethernet is 100Mbps so even considering TCP overhead so be aplenty. I have no idea about the bit rate of 4K as there is no commercial material available and have no idea of what kind of compression it'll use but Gigabit should accomodate it fine and still leave plenty of headroom. IMHO Wifi is fine for some tasks but it just doesn't cut it for some others like reliably streaming HQ video, the more Wifi devices in the network the worse. Can't do that now as out of job still and feeling super lazy. That's why I need to know the minimum requirement for a NAS CPU to perform the hirez AV tasks (384-24 and 4K at least for future proof) I have in mind. So I will just buy a bare minimum NAS CPU to do the job and to test until I'm richer for an all out assault on the SOTA AV computer network. So will a 500MHz Marvel Orion NAS CPU be enough for the stated? Yeah, I know most similar current NASs use an Intel Atom Duo Core 1.6GHz. Btw, I don't think RAID 0 is advisable as no mirroring or backup. My main reason for RAID is for the middle layer backup and uptime in mind. As Elysion had suggested, RAID1 or 5 or 10 will be more appropriate. I still need to investigate more. I was pulling your leg Chong, as an example, each E5-4650 CPU sales for around 4,000€ so in the system I mentioned you'd be facing 16,000€ only in processors, add to that some 128GB of RAM (a nice Supermicro board can take up to 1TB of registered RAM), the Mobo, a nice server chasis with good ventilation ans redundant PSs, a few fast SSD drives, a 10Gb network card and Switch and you'll be well north of 30,000€ for the complete system. As utterly pointless as it gets. I don't think you'll run into any speed trouble with any half decent wired Gigabit NAS. BTW, any RAID array will give you protection against disk failure but not against accidental erasing or overwriting. Bear in mind array rebuild times can be quite lenghty when using multiple Terabyte volumes, and I mean reall lenghty, as in many hours depending on disk and controller. Excellent dissertion there, Javier! With your assurance, I think now can safely go forward for a cheap lowend wired 1Gbs NIC NAS with just a Marvel Orion 500MHz CPU and 128MB (I think) cache on board. Yup, not iCore computer stuff but just enough to be 384-24 and 4k AV ready if needed later. Anyway, that's my objective. An AV server with mainly nothing else in mind. Hmm, maybe incorporate as FTP server into it to try and test later. But still mainly AV. So have to be cheap as still not working yet but just to ebb my OCD appetitie for computer AV now. So cannot do Synology NAS now as too expensive for my pocket. I will later when finance improves drastically as I always wanted one when those local hifi nuts write about it. Synology is the preferred choice here over Qnap for highend hifi. That is still Elysion choice too after trying quite many NAS in his previous jobs. Btw, what is the 3D Bluray max bit/s? 80 Mbs? Yeah, we must also not forget 3D files as well. With the excellent assistance of the expert computer members here, my computer audio is bit by bit taking place in their correct perspective.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 3, 2012 1:46:19 GMT
Going for a stroll down computer lane ............. Bye ..............
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 4, 2012 2:07:33 GMT
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 4, 2012 9:30:36 GMT
Question time ............ Are there any ethernet routers that support Jumbo packet? My Cisco E4200 internet Wireless N router seems doesn't have that feature. Also, there are a few Jumbo packet to select. Use the biggest at about 9000+ B? Thanks all for the reply. Elysion, where are you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 9:45:25 GMT
Jumbo packets are only available in Gigabit Ethernet, you need a router with a Gigabit LAN port or a Gigabit switch before the router. A cheap 5 port D-Link, Netgear switch will do fine and won't break the bank.
Edit:
I've just checked and it looks like the E4200 does have Gigabit but its firmware does not support Jumbo frames. You'll need to add a switch Jumbo frame capable before it or wait until they publish a firmware revision adding that feature (if they ever do).
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 4, 2012 11:52:02 GMT
Jumbo packets are only available in Gigabit Ethernet, you need a router with a Gigabit LAN port or a Gigabit switch before the router. A cheap 5 port D-Link, Netgear switch will do fine and won't break the bank. Edit:I've just checked and it looks like the E4200 does have Gigabit but its firmware does not support Jumbo frames. You'll need to add a switch Jumbo frame capable before it or wait until they publish a firmware revision adding that feature (if they ever do). Ah, thanks. This Cisco is supposed to be a highend wireless N router and with no jumbo packet support, damn it! I will write to them to ask whether they will have a firmware upgrade with jumbo in it later. I wouldn't be so loyal now. Only thing is Cisco nowadays is real nice and slim looking. The best look of all the wireless N routers. Btw, there is nowadays link aggregation too in NAS or client equiped with it. Is there any in switches with that feature as well for future proofing? Technically should be twice the speed but as we know specs wouldn't tell us all.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 5, 2012 6:22:03 GMT
Just had a support chat session with Cisco US call centre regarding Jumbo and Link Aggregation 1/2 an hour ago. Those reps really know nothing much about supporting us except for what were already written in black and white in their DB. I got more clear cut logical assistance here at RG then at Cisco Call Centre. Only consolation is being referred to Cisco business division Singapore for the switches with Jumbo and Link Aggregation. Wow, those Cisco switches will be expensive for sure. The home network series don't even have one switch that supports Jumbo and Link Aggregation and that's Cisco, btw! The only helpfull thing is that the rep did wrote Jumbo is NOT supported in the E4200 and there will be NO further firmware update to make it do at least Jumbo and I thought this is (or was ) a highend router. So Cisco you have my vote and I will be looking at other brands for those switches for sure!
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 6, 2012 2:53:15 GMT
How many ports switch will be more or less able to meet a home usage? Yeah, allow for some scalability too. I saw the Dell Powerconnect switches 2800 series on the web and they look tempting and able to meet all my requirements I need.
1) Jumbo up to 9K 2) Link Aggregation 3) Spanning Tree
Don't ask me why such a high demand as I'm planning for future proofing too, remember? Are there other brands that meet those demand too?
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2012 6:46:56 GMT
Spanning tree? what for? are you planning to pile several switches? do you really need critical high availability? remember that a chain is only as strong as it weakest link, true 24/7 availavility tends to be terribly expensive.
As to link aggregation, get a cheap one Jumbo packets ready and when they get cheaper, in a few years time, replace it with a 10Gb switch.
Don't know how many devices you plan to connect but for most people a 16 port switch will cover all their needs, you can get a nice one for less than 100€ (or 125USD)
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 6, 2012 7:30:05 GMT
Spanning tree? what for? are you planning to pile several switches? do you really need critical high availability? remember that a chain is only as strong as it weakest link, true 24/7 availavility tends to be terribly expensive. As to link aggregation, get a cheap one Jumbo packets ready and when they get cheaper, in a few years time, replace it with a 10Gb switch. Don't know how many devices you plan to connect but for most people a 16 port switch will cover all their needs, you can get a nice one for less than 100€ (or 125USD) Yes, your dissertion of the setup I need to be in mirrors what I have in mind too after some thoughts. In a few years time, change to a 10Gbs switch. Maybe don't need buy another switch any more as wifi router with switches may already have jumbo and link aggregation by then for the highend home series. Actually, I come to think of spanning tree after one of the hifi nuts was talking about that in the local hifi forum. I wanted my AV system to be completely crash, freeze and snail pace loading free as now there is computer crash now and then and I must have the minumum configuration to avoid all that blue screen crashes and slow loading. I think his needs must be pretty big in his home from what his was doing and from his writes he seems to be an IT guy. I don't need what he needs. So a 16 to 24 ports with jumbo and link aggragation will suffice. Forget about spanning tree. Thanks for this advice which surely is more logical then what those call centres can give ............
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 9, 2012 0:24:15 GMT
Question time again. For AV, what's the best MTU that I can push to? Ethernet calls for 1500. Can go any further than that over Wifi and wired? Or just Jumbo will be enough.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 9, 2012 6:39:14 GMT
Well, another optimising question for Wifi now. What SKU you guys use? Now to test again after WMM and forced 2by3.
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Post by XTRProf on Jul 12, 2012 10:52:41 GMT
I can't believe it. Finally some stability for HIREZ AUDIO files playback thru Wifi N after much tweaking. Not the most stable yet but can play all files without delay, freezing or Win 7 window of death blue screen from 44-16 to DSD to the worst case scenario of 352-24 wav. Here, testing picture with all those named files in. Yeah ................
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jul 13, 2012 0:47:47 GMT
If you rely on old crap like this 20GB drive, you don't have to wonder if your data gets lost. Time to get rid of that crap.
You are asking always about NAS/storage to play "AV" files without any glitches and then you use such crap?
There is NO 5400rpm speed limit. It's only a question of the controller, interface and the driver (for the size). Size limits are mostly a thing of the past. The ONLY current size limitation is for SATA storage with more than 2TB. SATA storage with more than 2TB NEEDS UEFI firmware to be bootable, but can also used without problems in BIOS mode (but you can't boot this media in BIOS mode). You can also use a 3 or 4TB disk to boot with a BIOS, BUT then you can only use a maximum of 2TB space on that disk/partition and depending on your OS/drivers/firmware you could also run into issues. In practice, you can't boot 2TB media without UEFI firmware on your PC.
Speed is only limited by the interface itself. The interface doesn't care at all if the platters are turning with 5400, 7200, 10000 or 15000rpm.
FORGET about any PATA/IDE media nowadays. This is crap from the past. No problem though to use a PATA interface if you have still working old PATA hardware and for optical drives the speed of the PATA interface doesn't matter at all. It's still fast enough for all optical media beside Bluray drives (which have been sold only with SATA interfaces IIRC).
SATA was released in 2003! That's almost ten years back and SATA has been improved already several times.
Chong, FORGET wireless if you want a really fast network. Most likely, the NAS won't be your problem. And what you mean with "AV" files exactly? Audio itself can't be the problem. The used bandwidth is neglible. And video? Decoding HD videos uses a lot of CPU and/or GPU power. If you don't have a fast computer, then a fast network and a fast NAS are senseless. You'll need to be a lot more specific with "AV" files and "Full HD video" to make an exact answer possible. If you want absolutely no jerks under any circumstances, then go for a really fast intel K-Series CPU, a good motherboard with fast RAM, a high-end GPU and a good and reliable SSD like one of the Crucial m4 series and play the stuff locally. Why use a NAS when you use only one computer?
For comparison: I have a couple of older Synology NAS around (a DS508 and a DS209+ for example, both with an 800MHz PowerPC CPU and 512MB RAM and some older Samsung F1 7200rpm harddrives): I can play easily ripped HD videos (in various formats in 720p or 1080p) over my fast Gigabit-Ethernet network (jumbo frames enabled and switching on a HP ProCurve switch) on a 2007 MacMini with GMA950 graphics that has got faster Kingston Hyper-X RAM. The GMA950 is quite slow, but the faster RAM makes it possible to decode even 1080p (although that's quite at the limit, depending on the video format some frames are dropped and framerate isn't perfect) although his should be only possible for 720p. This 2007 MacMini wouldn't be able to decode a Bluray disks, but it is able to decode some video formats in 720p and 1080p resolution.
My faster PC's can do things like HD video decoding and scaling with almost no CPU usage since most of the decoding is done by the GPU.
IIRC, I've never suggested using RAID 10. Since you don't have a lot of money now, why don't you go for a nice midrange Synology NAS with room for two drives and use them as RAID1 (mirrored). I'm almost sure that will do the job in most situations and you have still some money left for Gigabit Ethernet networking. Your PC specs would also be interesting. The fastest server and network are senseless if your client can't decode the stuff in time. A screwed up network config will also slow things down. RAID5 or RAID6 on a NAS is always a risk since these little boxes take often DAYS to recover a RAID set if one disk has failed. RAID6 allows two disks to fail but it takes just a long for the recovery of a RAID set. You'd need to keep also (preferably) at least one spare disk around (same type as in your RAID set), since disks types are changing quite often and compatability between different types of disks in a RAID set CAN be a problem with some NAS. It doesn't have to be a problem though, but you never know.
If you ask me, then go out an have a real-world look on a NAS system a make some tests. I don't understand why you are so picky about no glitches when using AV or HD video files over a network and then you are using crap like the 20GB PATA drive mentioned above.
You don't need a high-end NAS for your purposes (really!). Even a small Atom CPU is fast enough for most NAS systems since a NAS doesn't have to calculate a GUI and graphics output. The processor is only used for the tasks a NAS really has to do. That's why they can be built so small an energy efficient.
I guess your main problem is that you can't imagine the scales we have been talking about in this thread for a long time. You simply need some practice to give you a feeling about the scales we are talking about.
I can understand that very well. I'm still a total soldering noob, but I have started soldering myself recently. The reason why I was hesitating so long was because I had no practice and no one was explaining it to me in the real world and no one gave me the needed practical advice here in Switzerland. It's not enough to read books, review or the get hints over the internet by experts. You (and me and everyone) need some practice to understand really how it works or for example how fast or big a certain value is.
Since I've got some real advice for soldering, I don't see it as a problem. I think it's fun now. It was a long way though and if I'm looking back, I was stupid because I didn't get that advice before. But that's not always easy. I had no one around to show it to me.
Do you know some computer guys in Singapore or have you the possibility to join a computer user group there? I know there are very capable computer guys over there. It's probably only a matter of finding and getting in touch with them. I'm sure the answer will be much clearer for you with just a little bit practice.
Your are also in the same situation as I am at the moment. We are both jobless. Time isn't our problem. Use that time and search for the practice you need. It's not easy to find it (at first), but it's possible (I'm a good example for that).
I wish you a lot of luck with this and you can still always ask on RG if you have questions.
BTW: Pass me over your PC specs. I'll have a look on the specs and I can tell you if your PC is able to decode the HD videos you want to use.
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Post by elysion on Jul 13, 2012 0:55:57 GMT
I CAN believe it. Audio (even high-quality stuff) doesn't use much bandwidth. It's no problem for todays computers and networks. There's only one real drawback: Latency. Latency is always slower over a network than when you play something on your local PC. It's a very different questions, if you'll notice that at all.
I don't notice a problem with latency when I play streaming audio from Soma FM over the internet. In fact, it sounds great although it is a crappy audio stream with only a mediocre quality. But my Xonar Essence STX is upsampling that crap an it sounds awesome.
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