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Post by dalethorn on Jan 29, 2012 15:08:00 GMT
".... don't you all think it's time that new releases were put out in a stereo version and a binaural, given that so many now use headphones and DAPS? It would be interesting to see how many of each version sell ...."
I copied that from the amplifier topics - never read that question before. Seems important.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 15:24:17 GMT
Ah.. Ian's reply/remark is interesting indeed.
my best guess:
1: Making binaural recordings is a completely different method as studio work so each album would have to be recorded TWICE under different conditions.
2: How many audiophiles worldwide listen to headphones and actually care about recordings being binaural ? a very optimistic estimation would be a 1000 ... percentage wise perhaps 0.01% of the market ? Most listen to speakers OR listen to smartphones with their 'look at me' headphones and care nothing about quality.
I think it's a financial/market share decision... just like 'loudness'. Can bet many artists hate it too, but in general it's the producers/labels that decide how f#d-up they want to sell their 'merchandise'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 15:55:59 GMT
I've often wondered why there's a lack of binaural. Even Pink Floyd attempted it with quadrophonic reproduction on DSOTM thanks to Alan Parsons. Interesting that no-one wonders about the cover of that album. The prism and the rainbow. Maybe because it was first performed at the Rainbow theatre?
Anyway - binaural, as most people know involves the use of two mics and a dummy head which means that electronic musicians have a problem. They have to PLAY it. (oh no!!!)
I guess it could be attempted electronically but probably wouldn't be as good. Live concerts could be done I guess.
It would be nice to sit in the middle of the band and hear the guys around you in a headphone and could also bring a totally new set of ideas such as on some stuff, engineers pan left and right on some tracks to give the impression of spinning. With binaural, it could actually spin, but then so would the rest of the band!!
It has always seemed odd to me that we listen to music designed for speakers on headphones and apparently hear 3d. I don't though. I hear left right and centre. 3 blobs.
Orchestral music sounds a lot more natural in Binaural to me. That's live anyway since they are actually playing but in so much rock/pop, overdubs and electronic manipulation goes on so that often, they become impossible to perform live so a dummy head type recording can't be done.
It's a bit like when Queen did Bohemian Rhapsody live onstage and then walked off while the middle stuff was going on since it was pre-recorded and then they happily joined it for the rock section after the aaah, aaaaaaah, aaaaaaaaah and then the power chords/stabs were done live before the guitar solo.
How about a return to quadrophonic which could work on a headphone with a front and rear speaker? That way, it would be easy to remix a standard recording but we'd all need 'Quad' headphones.
I'd love to see more binaural stuff and it makes sense on headphones but Frans is right .... market forces. However, once we heard binaural properly, I have a feeling that the idea of imaging on a headphone would be non-existent since it's so much more life like when you hear sounds more naturally.
I reckon it may happen .... one day.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 16:37:31 GMT
It has always seemed odd to me that we listen to music designed for speakers on headphones and apparently hear 3d. I don't though. I hear left right and centre. 3 blobs. I also hear left right, everything between and most of it in the middle. On some occasions while listening for long on my orthos on the verge of falling asleep I sometimes get a less 2 dimensional impression. I think wether you hear 3D is mostly how the brain interprets the incoming 2D signals (nothing 3D there). For some it might be more 3D in their head so they experience that. When I was in photography (the analog age) I regularly saw a 3D shows where they projected medium format (and also some 35mm) stereo pictures... un...believable... the eyes are probably easier to fake into displaying a 3D picture than it is for hearing to do that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 16:51:10 GMT
Actually, Frans, 3d sight and 3d hearing are kind of similar. With images, you place two cameras the space of two eyes apart and get two images that you view through polarised lenses. The left image being projected vertically polarised and the left, horizontally so your eyes are seeing two pictures just like real life. (You probably know this anyway) With hearing, the ears hear their own sides, but unfortunately also hear a little bit of the other ear's domain so there is a complex mix. (ie: your right eye doesn't see any part of what the left eye sees!!) That mix also works differntly at different pitches so it's a difficult thing to reproduce but having two microphones is pretty close since each microphone hears part of the other microhone's domain so theoretically, it should be right!! Mind you ..... You know all this don't you? For me, binaural is much 'righter' than stereo in headphones. I do miss my old Jan Meier crossfeed box, where it was tried electronically by adding mix and delay into the signal and sending it to the opposite ear. That implementation was pretty good since the amount could be varied and it did relieve the 3 blob stereo effect to some extent for me. Mine was nicked!! If he still made them, I would have bought another. It lightened up the Senn HD650 sound a lot as well. Much more natural to my ears.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 17:15:39 GMT
The theory behind 3D is correct.
There are a lot of differences though. Those with good vision have brains wired for sight and hearing is less dominant. For eyes depth perception (if both eyes are working normally) is indeed because 2 eyes are seeing the same but only shifted in angle. Depth perception however is lighting dependant (as is distance dependant) even with 1 eye one can perceive depth though by either moving the head slightly or when you are in a moving object. eyesight also is easily fooled (just like hearing) and one can see things that actually do not exist.
The ears are more difficult because like the eyes don't point forward but to the sides and also have these strange looking things next to it that are formed differently in each person. To obtain a direction of a sound the shape of the ears is also important and 3D is derived from frequency spectrum and phase differences instead of only 2 similar pictures looked at from a different position.
Try locating something in a room (3D) by ears in a darkened room or blindfolded and it becomes painfully obvious sight is very important to obtain good sonic placement. With speakers the room is 'in the calculations' in the brain so it is easier to locate.
Make a recording in a room with 2 mics and play it back. It's defenitely not what one heard when standing there the echos/reverb is VERY confusing with a normal mic without using a Jecklin disc or head.. With a binaural head mimicing the ears/head and played back on headphones this is much easier.
fascinating stuff ... perception
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 21:12:01 GMT
Hi Ian Were you using headphones when you said this ? Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 21:29:18 GMT
They were strong Alex...... but I rarely pick it up tbh. I kind of don't listen for it really. With a good recording though, they are there. But there ain't many of them now, are there?
One CD I listened to once struck me as a bit scary - it was one by Bjork. Volta. There's a motorbike on it on one track and when I first heard it, I thought it was outside the window and actually got up to look.
Another that I remember vividly was Sting's 'Soul Cages'. On speakers, there were some sounds right out of the speakers' line and seeming to come from the room and not one particular speaker. On headphones - nothing. That one was electronically treated I think but it was designed to work on speakers.
Not often I can hear it on headphones.
It's much better on speakers and even then, I need to be on the top of the triangle to get it properly. I even find the window from speakers can be quite narrow.
I actually listened to your files on both. I sometimes find that if I get spacial clues on speakers, I can 'visualise' them on headphones. In the case of those files, they worked really well on speakers and also were good on the K701's. Other headphones I tried weren't as good but the the 701's are a bit better at separating sounds in comparison to a lot of others.
Generally, I get 3 blobs on headphones. (Unless I detect room reflections or delay) It's a bit easier with orchestral or acoustic stuff. I think speakers are better at it.
Binaural on a headphone though is amazingly focused. You could easily forget that you have a headphone on. It's also less fatiguing.
Frans put it very eloquently, I think;
I think wether you hear 3D is mostly how the brain interprets the incoming 2D signals (nothing 3D there). For some it might be more 3D in their head so they experience that.
If I hear clues from say, speakers, I do find it easier on a headphone, but on yer average CD, I get left, right and centre mostly.
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Post by rowuk on Jan 29, 2012 21:57:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 22:16:26 GMT
I liked the Spanish players!!
You know, on all of those, I had trouble detecting out of head forwards. Strongest for me was behind and to the sides.
Headphones don't place sounds forwards perhaps for me? I get middle and sides and behind, but not so much in front.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 22:23:56 GMT
Hi Ian I have seen a few record producers say that quite a few artists demand that their recordings sound loud in order to be noticed when played on air.They are probably in the minority though, with most recording engineers doing what the execs tell them to do ? Kind Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 22:33:38 GMT
Hi Ian I have seen a few record producers say that quite a few artists demand that their recordings sound loud in order to be noticed when played on air.They are probably in the minority though, with most recording engineers doing what the execs tell them to do ? Kind Regards Alex Yes, Alex. Pop/Rock especially is designed really for radio play and the compression used pushes spacial stuff all over the place. It's even worse on a headphone. The thinking is that if your record is louder than everyone elses, then you'll sell more because yer average kid thinks it's great. If you can take crap music, listen to Eminem's stuff. (It's offensive though) Big fat bloated bottom end and so loud that I get distortion virtually permanently there on the peaks. It's really moronic, but kids love it and think it's quality. Dr Dre headphones show that as well. Big fat bloated sound to match their price and they are selling!! Thing is, if you use sources that are done that way, it's a rescue job to get it sounding like clean music let alone the fineries of imaging. The files you did were really good quality source files; at least they sounded like it to me. Therefore some of the spacial stuff was there in quite a pronounced way. You don't get that with most recordings unfortunately. It's a shame, because now we have quieter electronics, there's plenty of scope for turning the volume down and stopping this damned compression so that we get the subtle clues more easily.
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Post by XTRProf on Jan 30, 2012 7:43:15 GMT
Actually is there such a thing as 3D in LIVE music? LIVE music is, as Ian had said earlier, a wall of sound. Yeah, a big FAT MONO. All those 3D effects we heard in our CDs and vinyls are studio generated effects that in the real LIVE music will not be there. So Linn and Naim are right in a way. Listen to the tune. Yeah, I want the true LIVE music reproduction. That's what the originals are.
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Post by Chris53 on Jan 30, 2012 7:51:06 GMT
Actually is there such a thing as 3D in LIVE music? LIVE music is, as Ian had said earlier, a wall of sound. Yeah, a big FAT MONO. All those 3D effects we heard in our CDs and vinyls are studio generated effects that in the real LIVE music will not be there. So Linn and Naim are right in a way. Listen to the tune. Yeah, I want the true LIVE music reproduction. That's what the originals are. Well that's certainly not true if you listen to live classical music. Everything is in its place.
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Post by XTRProf on Jan 30, 2012 7:55:43 GMT
Actually is there such a thing as 3D in LIVE music? LIVE music is, as Ian had said earlier, a wall of sound. Yeah, a big FAT MONO. All those 3D effects we heard in our CDs and vinyls are studio generated effects that in the real LIVE music will not be there. So Linn and Naim are right in a way. Listen to the tune. Yeah, I want the true LIVE music reproduction. That's what the originals are. Well that's certainly not true if you listen to live classical music. Everything is in its place. You've got me! I think I better rephrase. Not classical orchestra size but pop, rock, jazz, baroque, essemble, etc size. The usual suspects.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 8:12:22 GMT
you will ONLY get the true live music when you go to a live concert.
Any recording no matter how well it was made is merely a 'glimps' of what was played. mic positions (classic one-go recording) mixing/ tone control and room acoustics define HOW it was recorded. In a studio mic positions, DSP, mixing and those involved in the mix and the monitors used define the recording /placement. This cannot be altered (much) afterwards. certain DSP can improve certain aspects and make recordings sound better... but better for WHO ?
When you tune in to the essence of the music (music lovers do) the quality of the recording is not that important. For 'quality lovers' it's not the music that is important as long as it sounds good it gives them enjoyment. There is only a very small percentage of consumers that find both EQUALLY important.
Aim for the masses and get rich by selling lots of something with a small profit margin. If you aim at a niche AND you want to get rich you have to make EXHUBERANT profits on a low amount of devices. Hence the EXHUBERANT prices for some cables and equipment.
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Post by XTRProf on Jan 31, 2012 4:24:32 GMT
When you tune in to the essence of the music (music lovers do) the quality of the recording is not that important. For 'quality lovers' it's not the music that is important as long as it sounds good it gives them enjoyment. There is only a very small percentage of consumers that find both EQUALLY important. Actually, that's not very true. Both are important. When the quality is poor, how do the musicians convey the "ideas" of the music to the audience? So it must sound nice eventhough it's not what is actually like LIVE music. Also, when the music is "poor" like death metal, I will run out in a 100 m dash before long even if it's free. Anyway, there are theories and rules on how to make good sounding music thru the chords. Ian can testify to that as well being a pro keyboardist. I'm very sure those that have gone to concerts and even lounges with bands will testify that whether they enjoy the outing will very much be dependent on how good the sound engineers do their jobs. Just imagine the concert all the while sounded thin and shrill. Who will enjoy that? Also, boomy and muddy lounge music? Is this is not the case why have pro acousticians and sound engineers? Btw, there are courses on these. Yup, there is the science of good sound at technical institutes and you are science by action. So both do matter as there are people talking on this aspect of quality as you had seen from those that had attended concerts or even bar music here at RG.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 5:49:10 GMT
Actually is there such a thing as 3D in LIVE music? LIVE music is, as Ian had said earlier, a wall of sound. Yeah, a big FAT MONO. All those 3D effects we heard in our CDs and vinyls are studio generated effects that in the real LIVE music will not be there. So Linn and Naim are right in a way. Listen to the tune. Yeah, I want the true LIVE music reproduction. That's what the originals are. Well that's certainly not true if you listen to live classical music. Everything is in its place. Actually Chris, the audience perspective is mostly left/right because the orchestra is normally placed inside a rectangular box (stage) and the audience face it so it is kind of similar to speakers. Frans is right in that musos tend to get into the music rather than worry about the quality of reproduction so much. Many musicians have terrible systems and they seem quite happy with it!! I don't even mind listening on a digital tranny sometimes.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 31, 2012 10:36:50 GMT
For binaural think TILGNER
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 19:16:47 GMT
For binaural think TILGNER You're right there!! Terrific recordings. You get really immersed.
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Post by johnwillett on Feb 1, 2012 14:07:17 GMT
".... don't you all think it's time that new releases were put out in a stereo version and a binaural, given that so many now use headphones and DAPS? It would be interesting to see how many of each version sell ...." I copied that from the amplifier topics - never read that question before. Seems important. LOL Recording binaural is a *completely* different recording technique. Binaural is recorded with a single dummy-head microphone - IE: a microphone like a human head complese with artificial ears. Though you can get a good approximation by recording with a Schneider Disk.
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Post by pandapops on Feb 8, 2012 5:24:58 GMT
No one produced a system that the record companies found commercially worthwhile, they had a few decades to do so before crap MP3s became the norm, for example Zuccarelli still apparently in business 30 years on and apparently only 3 albums by name artists Pink Floyd, Roger Walters, Psychic TV, when Madonna and Wham were selling millions.
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