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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 15:38:39 GMT
HI Frans, Thanks for the link, - will have a read Thanks for the info. I did not find the HD681s too lifted in the treble, - more like there was a bit of a peak somewhere in the upper mid or something that was bothersome. And I agree not as sweet sounding as the HD600 range, and a little bit crude in the treble which I had a slight problem with. I have not tried the HD668B, - I understand this is more neutral than the HD681, but does not have as much bass, - how did you find that one? Cheers, Colin www.headphone.com/learning-center/about-headphone-measurements.phpThere is a good tutorial which adresses the basics b.t.w. The filter for Mike's HD681 was very subtle in filtering as he had stated it sounded good to him without the filter. The filter I used when comparing was more like the '2nd edition' filter which drops the excessive highs considerably almost down to HD650 levels. Because the highs have dropped the midrange becomes more prominent (less sucked out as the treble simply masks it) and becomes better. Not as sweet as the HD650 though or the SR850 HD668B even. I can only 'remember' the HD250-II, can't use them side by side for comparison anymore. I bet the LCD2 sounds good to a lot of K701/K501 owners as this is more their ideal can then hours. I am glad Mick likes it as he ordered one and got a sneak preview.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 15:57:49 GMT
I prefer the modded HD-681 (2nd filter) over the HD668B and SR850. The people who like K701 will like the HD668B and SR850 better.
There is a big peak between 3kHz and 10 kHz (peaked at 7 kHz) like most HP's have and the filter lowers this. I call this the treble region but you call it upper mids (which might be a more accurate description) Mike's external filter only drops it a few dB as he seemed to like it and only takes of the edge. My filter drops it considerably (levels it) by 10 dB.
Ofcoarse the peak is a resonance/break up thing and if lowered still makes itself known in having higher distortion (less 'clean' sounding perhaps).
There is little reason why you should try a 2nd filter modded HD681 as the HD250-II is already close to it and doesn't need a filter. The SR850 and HD668B are a nice listen but probably not your thing.
the tutorial is pretty basic and doesn't cover the relation between the things you see in the squarewaves and the impedance graph together which do have a relation.
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 17:02:51 GMT
Thanks Frans, AHHH thats the confusion, - I call it the upper mids and you call it the treble. Makes sense now, - yes that's where the peak is I don't like in the HD681. Ahh if I heard the phone with a filter that dropped this peak more it would not doubt been a loo better for me. I did find the bass a little bit overblown though compared to the cleaner bass of the HD250II. Is there any way around this to clean up the slight boom/bass excess?
Thanks for the info, - will not look at the HD668B and SR850 then. By the way, - I recently borrowed Mick's AKG K701 and I didn't like it at all, - it sounded far too bright for me, - I am not sure if there was a peak too in the upper mid but the whole of the treble was too bright for me. I could not live with a phone as bright as that, - would prefer being stuck with the relatively dark LCD2 instead. And I also found the K701 did seem to have a lot of audbile distoriton and coarsness to the sound, - not sure if this is just usual cone distortion or if its increased by the hot treble output, or it just sounds that way but I didn't like it. The HD250II has much less distortion to me ears, and of course the LCD2 (which I had been listening to before the K701 came) is ultra low distortion in comparison,and despite my problems with the tonal balance I can appreciate the low distortion levels it has compared to cone dynamic phones.
Just reread a post of your above saying that LCD2 is likely the ideal headphone for a K701 lover, - really? The K701 is WAY brighter sounding than the LCD2 to my ears, - and its also far brighter for me than any of my HD250IIs.
I had the K1000 for a short while before I sold it to Nigel. That was different, - FR was not to my usual tastes but I did like the sound and thought it was a great headphone. A bit too flawed for me mainly as there is little bass output below 50Hz, and I decided I could not live with that.
You know I am sure Headphone.com used to have the HD250II on the comparisons before it was discontinued, - about three years ago I think it was. I can;t remember what the graph looked like. I might email and ask them is they still have it in their archives. It would be nice to see for sure what the HD250II has in the FR that I like a lot, but I am guessing you must be right and its has an unusually low peak in the bass between 30-100Hz and something uplifted in the treble somewhere. Probably a bit similar to the DT990 graph but with the bass peak slightly lower and a bit more midrange present in the graph?
Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 17:41:34 GMT
I owned a K701 for several months (2nd hand, already played in FWIW). I really tried hard to like it... Same here, to much emphasis on the highs and to 'dry' and un-engaging sounding for me personally on the verge of being 'dull'. I would call it 'aenemic', which it isn't really, but the bass representation isn't what I look for. That's (probably) why on many forums there are people that love it's reperesentation and don't care for the 'warmer' cans and those that don't like the K701 but find the HD6** series better. It almost seems there are but few people that like 'm both equally well.
Why I think K701 fans will like it is because of the bass presentations which has similarities. Yes, the treble will be less with the LCD-2 but this is also caused by the higher amount of distortion from the K701 (check distortion graphs on headphone.com) The LCD-2 is much cleaner with a similar amount of bass and the cleaner and lower treble may come as a relief to K701 fans.
I have emailed headphone.com 2 times, never got any answers. They have a lot of older cans too in their 'graph' sections, also of older ones but the 250 is not there. I hope you can get an answer and graphs from them though.
The 2nd filter makes the bass even more prominent so I stuffed the cups with a certain amount of wool which helped lower it a bit and 'tighten' it. Still not 'perfect' though but can live with it happily.
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 23:05:39 GMT
Cheers Frans, I agree with you on the K701 as well, - yes that's it, - too much emphasis on the Highs, two dry and too clinical soudning, with some obvious distortion. I can see what you mean though the LCD2 is more like a much better version of this sound, - similar bass output and characteristics, but much more balanced and sensible treble, much better mid, much more refinement and much less distortion too. The main difference with the headphone I like really has its foundation in the bass, - I need ones with that low peak, - I tried to look at other graphs on headphone.com but could not spot any more apart from said Beyers, and the HD681 is similar of course,- do you know of any others? Thinking about it even if the HD800 and HE5/HE6 have the sort of treble I like, not having the bass balance I like could actually be a much bigger issue. I far prefer the Senn HD6** series from the K701, - less dry, much more sweeter sounding, - not the excessive highs, and warmer, more musical, less clinical sound. But on top of that I vastly prefer the HD250II from any HD6** series due to the better bass and treble it has for me. The slightly compromised midrange of it is the only downside but I can live with it. Its worse in some examples than others, and you can tune it a bit with extra damping discs at in front of the driver or ones made from different material. Shame about headphone.com if you had no luck I guess I won't either but I can try I suppose. Cheers, Colin I owned a K701 for several months (2nd hand, already played in FWIW). I really tried hard to like it... Same here, to much emphasis on the highs and to 'dry' and un-engaging sounding for me personally on the verge of being 'dull'. I would call it 'aenemic', which it isn't really, but the bass representation isn't what I look for. That's (probably) why on many forums there are people that love it's representation and don't care for the 'warmer' cans and those that don't like the K701 but find the HD6** series better. It almost seems there are but few people that like 'm both equally well. Why I think K701 fans will like it is because of the bass presentations which has similarities. Yes, the treble will be less with the LCD-2 but this is also caused by the higher amount of distortion from the K701 (check distortion graphs on headphone.com) The LCD-2 is much cleaner with a similar amount of bass and the cleaner and lower treble may come as a relief to K701 fans. I have emailed headphone.com 2 times, never got any answers. They have a lot of older cans too in their 'graph' sections, also of older ones but the 250 is not there. I hope you can get an answer and graphs from them though. The 2nd filter makes the bass even more prominent so I stuffed the cups with a certain amount of wool which helped lower it a bit and 'tighten' it. Still not 'perfect' though but can live with it happily.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 0:09:24 GMT
In my experience, if the low end is extended as shown on the graphs,then it comes down more to the amplifier's capabilities. Panda should be very good in this area. Some of the Stax models, are to me, annoyingly deficient in that area, even though it may only be a 2dB droop below about 150HZ. That is why I swapped to the AT W1000, which also seems to handle actual LF decay a little better than the 701, where it can seem to stop prematurely.I also found the added sibilance of the 701 on some material , in comparison with the W1000, a little worse. Alex
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 1:17:18 GMT
Hi Alex, Interesting, - so do you really think an amp could put a bump in the right place in the bass FR for me with the HD800 for example? I agree with you on the Stax models, - been through ALL of them (apart from the Omega I) , - and all of them apart from the Sigmas and the O2 have that deficiency at 150 Hz which makes them sound very thin to me. I really liked the Normal Bias Lambda and that was my favourite as its very natural soudning but I sold it on in the end due to this anaemic bottom end and its a bit too bright and sharp too. The Sigmas are interesting but too dark and coloured sounding, - a guy on Head fi made a custom enclosure with an angle in-between that of a Lambda and Sigma. I have the specs and intend to get it built one day as I have some spare NB lamdba drivers. Get the angle right and I think you could get a very nicely balanced headphone, - well balanced bass and the right brightness and body level. The best headphone other than the HD250II I have now is easily the YH100, - it can so easily be tuned for ones tastes being a closed back Ortho, - you can adjust the bass etc by varying damping levels (and experiment with different materials) to get a good overall compromise you like, and you can make it dark or bright by adjusting damping levels and adding or removing reflex dots/discs. Very easy to do as well. Great headphone. I really like the way I have it tuned now, - it does have the sort of peak in the bass I like, - the peak is not quite as low as the HD250IIs bass peak so its not quite as good but it really helps me and I need that peak. And the treble is right for me the way I have tuned it, - I have tuned it for a bit more up there than the LCD2 has. The LCD2 is no doubt a more neutral headphone though than the YH100, but for whatever reason that balance does not suit me well. At some point some I might offer to send my YH100 to Frans for a listen to see if the way I have it tuned now is to his tastes and see what he thinks of it. Has many of the benefits of the LCD2 as its an Ortho, - the very low distortion etc. In stock form the YH100 sounds pretty awful IMO, - very heavy and boomy sounding, and far too dark. This is because the driver is massively underdamped in stock form. With a lot of damping added it transforms into a stunner. I intend to tune the Thunerpants I have coming in the same way. The way its likely to be tuned when it arrives will be a prominent mid, not enough highs for me and a bit of a bass boom. All hopefully easily fixable with some patience. Not sure if it will be as musical as the YH100, - that's one of the YH100s best qualities, - its better than the LCD2 in that regard by quite a bit too in my opinion. BTW if any of you see a YH100 anywhere for sale and don't want to buy it yourself then PLEASE tell me, - I want a back up pair for sure. I forgot to mention the sibilance on the K701, - yes that was very obvious to me as well, - I could not live with that and the overall highish distortion levels. I have not tried many ATs, - they do look better than the K701, but I am not sure if they would have the bass I like, but I hear they have a good midrange. I will stick with closed back Orthos for the time being I think as they can be tuned so easily because they are dipoles. All the best, Colin In my experience, if the low end is extended as shown on the graphs,then it comes down more to the amplifier's capabilities. Panda should be very good in this area. Some of the Stax models, are to me, annoyingly deficient in that area, even though it may only be a 2dB droop below about 150HZ. That is why I swapped to the AT W1000, which also seems to handle actual LF decay a little better than the 701, where it can seem to stop prematurely.I also found the added sibilance of the 701 on some material , in comparison with the W1000, a little worse. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 2:02:33 GMT
Colin See if you can audition the 800s with a Class A amplifier.They should be O.K. with the Panda, and suitably chosen series.output resistor values. As an aside, the Class A HA that I use, has +-20V supply rails fed by a JLH PSU addon for both low noise, and very low supply impedance over a much wider bandwidth than normal voltage regulators are capable of. The capacitance multipliers in the Panda supply rails , will go some way to acheiving this though. The bias is set for a little over 100mA per channel. However, the output stage emitter resistors are only 2.5ohms , in comparison with 10 ohms for the Panda. Alex
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XTRProf
Fully Modded
Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 15, 2010 3:27:05 GMT
Yeah agree with you on the Delam, - due to the useless 3M glue they used on the Maggies. Its better to completely rebuild the drivers if you have the time, but a little delam can be repaired without too much trouble. As for the bass whack etc, - there a lot of room for improvement but stiffening up the cabinets. Maggies are made to a price point and always have been and what is poor is the quality of the frame in terms of flex, the stands, and the crossover components too. If you look on the planar asylum forum its full of structural mods, - the first thing is to put on some proper, rigid tall stands to stop a lot of the flex (you can go DIY or retail) then strengthen the frame with aluminium U tube or L-brackets. And people also rebuild them completely in new frames as well, - one semi pro that does this is Peter Gunn, - who owns Magnestand. here are a few pics. www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/6e.jpg[/img] www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/images/100_0930.jpg[/img] You can see this type of construction is now no compromise,, - improves the sound massively apparently especially the bass. Liek I mentioned before of course stock apogees are also made to no compromise. The bass whack still might not rival a top dynamic but the improvement is worthwhile, - I might try l brackets and proper stand on my Maggies and upgrade the crossovers too with air core inductor and all polypropylene caps. I have played with going active too but its a little too fiddly for me! The pic of the Tympanis are Tympanis, - those are the Tympani IVa. Two of those units are bass panels, - the other slightly smaller one has both the midrange and ribbon tweeter in it. The driver area of the 2 bass sections in total is greater than the current top of the range 20.1. Here is the auction I missed, - different color socks. You can see the ribbon. cgi.ebay.co.uk/Magneplanar-Tympani-IVa-15000-three-panel-ribbon-units-/260665505647?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item3cb0dff76fReal shame I missed that, - an opportunity like that is unlikely to come up in the UK again. They had non working bass panels, - all this is is the voice coil wires have corroded somewhere losing contact, - its fixable, - might have been an easy or a big rebuild job. Its quite likely someone would have bought those tympanis solely for their great bass panels, - they can go lower than the 3 series, - down to 25 Hz I think. Here are some more pics of the IVa You can even the bass panels with a 3 series as here, - tympani bass panels with some 3.6Rs. The 3.6R has the extra wood strip to one side. gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=18194&f=IMG_4332.JPG [/img] The Tympani IVa was the top of the range 80s Maggie brought out alongside the MGIII, - was more than double the price I think. the other famous Tympani is the late 70s Tympani 1D, - that one does not have the ribbon. Its apparently very good though, and is considered one of the best speakers of all time. Of course you need serious space for tympani, - a long room is needed, - near to 30ft minimum! As for Apogees, - yes there is a guy in Australia who makes his own parts and he is very well regarded, - his name is "Graz" and he has even brought out "new" Apogees of his own. These have modern panels and different crossover design and are much much easier to drive, - sensible(ish!) impedance and even high sensitivities I think for most models, - pricey though, but considered by many to be real high end and I've heard many people consider these the ultimate speaker! this one is based on the Scintilla, - 2.5 ohms impedance, - 95dB sensitivity! Unsure of price but A LOT I would think. Here is another
20,000 AU dollars! He for sure makes new tweeters and bass panels for Apogees, - the Stages I had were installed with new "Graz" ribbons made by him. In the UK a place called Reality Audio distributes his stuff.You are right though, - its a very good idea to get an older non working Apogee and buy new panels, - I like the look of the Scintillas or teh Divas personally, but am put off by the weight. A guy on teh Planar forum told me the Divas (not sure about the Scintillas) need 100% to be actively triamped for decent performance. I suppose the price of each panel is quite a lot but I guess it would be worth it for the speaker you are getting of the money. Cheers, Colin [/quote] Collin, You obviously are very knowledgeable in the areas of the planar and ribbon speakers. Really thanks for sharing especially in the area of the Apogees. Now you got me behaving like a young adult again with adrenalin flowing with those pics and links ............
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 12:45:09 GMT
Thanks Alex, So are you saying to chose particular output resistor values because this might give me more of the balance I want? Mick has suggested too that the HD800 might work for me, - and I agree it does look good, - especially if I can nudge it a little to give me the sort of bass I need, - but he also warns me strongly to hear it first to see how I find it otherwise its a risk, - I will do, - not going to make the same mistake again. Glad Mick was able to try the LCD2s and he knows they are right for him. The Panda does look like a very good deal, - that's if I am capable of building one! Cheers, Colin Colin See if you can audition the 800s with a Class A amplifier.They should be O.K. with the Panda, and suitably chosen series.output resistor values. As an aside, the Class A HA that I use, has +-20V supply rails fed by a JLH PSU addon for both low noise, and very low supply impedance over a much wider bandwidth than normal voltage regulators are capable of. The capacitance multipliers in the Panda supply rails , will go some way to acheiving this though. The bias is set for a little over 100mA per channel. However, the output stage emitter resistors are only 2.5ohms , in comparison with 10 ohms for the Panda. Alex
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Post by Currawong on Oct 15, 2010 13:15:12 GMT
solderdude: Thanks for your posts on headphone frequency response. The effect of frequency response I feel isn't understood well enough. The whole issue with the LCD-2s and the mids and treble is fascinating to me. Some days I feel the LCD-2s are fine and some days I feel that the O2s are a breath of fresh air from theml, but much of that has to do with what music I'm listening to (and where it has the most emphasis) and what mood I'm in.
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Post by Defecitve Audio Component on Oct 15, 2010 16:38:42 GMT
From what I read about the little known Audeze LCD1 (their first headphone), - that its supposed to be nothing like as good as the LCD2. What about it measure better?, - looks very similar to a graph noob like me! I'm going to guess there is a typo on that graph, because my LCD-1 doesn't have a serial number, and it doesn't sound like the bass response of the LCD-2. The LCD-1 is also a LOT lighter than the LCD-2, and has soft velour ear pads. The LCD-1 sounds excellent too, but doesn't bring out the lowest bass like the LCD-2. (By the way, that link to the wikiphonia LCD-2 graph doesn't seem to work too well, so let's try this instead) Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 17:07:38 GMT
Hi There, Thanks for the info. Yeah I also thought something was weird as I remember reading before several times that the LCD1's bass is nothing like as good as the LCD2. So I was confused as to why the FR graph looked at least as good! So yeah I'm also assuming that's a typo and its another LCD2's readings, not an LCD1!
Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 17:51:36 GMT
You mean the names on the first graph in the canjam pdf file should say LCD-1 as is the last of the 4 LCD's . So 2 LCD-1's and 2 LCD-2's were measured/present and in 3 cases the graphs did not correspond to the type/serieal number ? 2 LCD's show a drop off of around -6dB at 10 Hz (which is inaudible, try it with a tone generator or Test CD with that tone) The HD800 = - 5dB at 10 Hz so similar to the LCD1 ? in this department. Even 20Hz is not present in audiosignals (O.K. maybe in some pieces where a church organ is used) and the difference between the LCD's is merely 1dB, at 30 Hz, about the lowest that musical instruments can produce and sounds more like a rumble then anything else there is no difference between the LCD's according to the graphs. The HD800 matches the LCD graphs at the same points b.t.w.. The amp used in the test gear must be very capable of driving all headphones, which it is otherwise they couldn't measure down to 10Hz. Could the differences be caused by spread in the production ? Because of this I seriously doubt the HD800 will have better bass as the LCD's with the same amp so HD800 will not suddenly become better then the LCD-2 in this department.
There are (minute) differences in the higher regions, particularly in the phase respons. This needs to be as close as possible to a straight line if you want the harmonics to match the ground waves and thus reproduce properly. (around the 0 degrees or 180 degrees line which is of no? importance) The LCD's are particualrly good in this department (as is to be expected with a well damped ortho)
I think both Audeze cans are excellent along the way but have to say I would choose the LCD-2 but comfortwise the LCD1 might be preferable as it's lighter in weight.
Since most people interpret sounds different it would be wise (when buying cans in the order of HD800,T1,expensive Grado's, Audeze or Hifiman (even D-7000) to audition them if possible (with familiar music) In the case of HiFiman and Audeze this might be difficult and maybe only possible at canjams. HD800, T1 and Grado's might be auditionable from some dealers (with the needed traveling) and might save you quite some money.
I hope the rest of the graphs and the names of the cans do correspond (they seem to be fitting in most cases)
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Post by Defecitve Audio Component on Oct 15, 2010 18:12:54 GMT
I wasn' there, so I wouldn't know for sure, but if I'm allowed to guess, then I'd guess that all four were LCD-2. Maybe some who was there could resolve this?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 18:27:15 GMT
If there were 4 LCD-2 's there is quite some spread, Whether this is audible is another thing as above 20z there are no noticeable differences. The HD800's performance is impressive given that the HD800 can match the LCD's in the lowest octaves right down to 20Hz. acc. to the graphs there might have been 2 LCD-1's and 2 LCD-2's (unless caused by spread) acc to the text above the graphs there were 3 LCD-2's and 1 LCD-1 and the LCD-1 and 1 of the LCD-2's had a very similar deep extended bass response to the LCD-1. Confusing at least. Indeed I hope someone can shed some light on it. On a technical base all 4 Audeze cans beat the others in all other departments too. Iimpedance linearity, phase response, damping, distortion, max output levels, squarewave reproduction (meaning the harmonics have correct timing in relation to the ground waves) That alone is admirable. Never heard them but sonically won't be bad or disappointing to those who like 'flat' reproduction. Probably not my thing though as my preference lies elsewhere and VFM is also important to me. Like Colin stated, there are but few cans out there that have the characteristics I am looking for. (DT770,HD250-II, modded HD681, where DT770 and HD250-II are silky-est in the highs) The HD25 is not one of them as it comes short in the silky treble department as it drops rapidly above 10kHz. (anything above 10kHz is not of much importance in the application it was designed for anyway, namely monitoring, just as nearfield monitors are not designed for home usage. Excellent rock cans as (in general) the highs are 'agressive' in a lot of recordings and the HD25 simply reproduces this last bit somewhat subdued, making it sound 'nicer'.
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Post by Defecitve Audio Component on Oct 15, 2010 18:59:35 GMT
Well, at least I can easily hear that the LCD-1 and LCD-2 aren't the same down to 20 hz.
The deep bass response was the most obvious improvement for me between the 1 and 2. I have no regrets upgrading to the LCD-2. For me, it's a great can. Although I've heard the Sennheiser HD800 for a few minutes in a store, and then I liked that can too.
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 19:34:21 GMT
I assumed like you all 4 of them were LCD2s. This is some small variation to FR graphs, - at least the ones that come with peoples LCD2s, - there are plenty posted on the LCD2 thread on Head0fi, - none look exactly the same. I will post mine so you can see the difference compared to the one above. My guess is that all 4 on the canjam pdf are LCD2s but perhpas we can ask someone who went to Camjam to double check? I'll ask my friend Kabeer if he knows anyone who went (which he might) Cheers, Colin , - Well, at least I can easily hear that the LCD-1 and LCD-2 aren't the same down to 20 hz. The deep bass response was the most obvious improvement for me between the 1 and 2. I have no regrets upgrading to the LCD-2. For me, it's a great can. Although I've heard the Sennheiser HD800 for a few minutes in a store, and then I liked that can too.
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 20:02:11 GMT
Asked my friend Kabeer by email, - he says: "Ah ok, im pretty sure thats an LCD2, the LCD1 doesn't have that bass response. I think the answer will be somewhere on HF lol. im 99% sure thats LCD2, the impulse response, the graph is the same as the other lcd2's etc."
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 20:25:02 GMT
Definitely agree with you on the HD25-I Frans, - pretty good, and the "right" sort of FR for me but its not refined or silky enough in the highs and I too noticed the rapid treble roll off which bothered me sometimes, - I could hear it. So yeah you and me do not seem to like flat cans but ones with a bit of u shape! HD250II is the best I have heard so far for me. I will try the DT770 again perhaps and try to mod it maybe, - not heard it for a long time. I had pros with the superlux due to the boomy bass and the peak in the upper mid, but I might get a pair anyway and do all the mods as per the thread here with the filters and use you mod to reduce the boom and make it good for me. And will continue to play with closed back orthos to get ones tuned for a u shaped FR! I might put my LCD2s up for sale on Head-fi very soon, I have them back from Mick now and am still having problems with the sound signature! Its a bit silly me keeping them really. I could try to get "used" to them but I think I am delaying the inevitable (ie. sell and likely try the HD800 with suitable amp instead) Cheers, Colin If there were 4 LCD-2 's there is quite some spread, Whether this is audible is another thing as above 20z there are no noticeable differences. The HD800's performance is impressive given that the HD800 can match the LCD's in the lowest octaves right down to 20Hz. acc. to the graphs there might have been 2 LCD-1's and 2 LCD-2's (unless caused by spread) acc to the text above the graphs there were 3 LCD-2's and 1 LCD-1 and the LCD-1 and 1 of the LCD-2's had a very similar deep extended bass response to the LCD-1. Confusing at least. Indeed I hope someone can shed some light on it. On a technical base all 4 Audeze cans beat the others in all other departments too. Iimpedance linearity, phase response, damping, distortion, max output levels, squarewave reproduction (meaning the harmonics have correct timing in relation to the ground waves) That alone is admirable. Never heard them but sonically won't be bad or disappointing to those who like 'flat' reproduction. Probably not my thing though as my preference lies elsewhere and VFM is also important to me. Like Colin stated, there are but few cans out there that have the characteristics I am looking for. (DT770,HD250-II, modded HD681, where DT770 and HD250-II are silky-est in the highs) The HD25 is not one of them as it comes short in the silky treble department as it drops rapidly above 10kHz. (anything above 10kHz is not of much importance in the application it was designed for anyway, namely monitoring, just as nearfield monitors are not designed for home usage. Excellent rock cans as (in general) the highs are 'agressive' in a lot of recordings and the HD25 simply reproduces this last bit somewhat subdued, making it sound 'nicer'.
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Post by Defecitve Audio Component on Oct 15, 2010 20:32:07 GMT
This all goes in circles, because that sounds like the conversation I had about it with him. How about a picture of your graph now? Asked my friend Kabeer by email, - he says: "Ah ok, im pretty sure thats an LCD2, the LCD1 doesn't have that bass response. I think the answer will be somewhere on HF lol. im 99% sure thats LCD2, the impulse response, the graph is the same as the other lcd2's etc."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 21:14:16 GMT
The differences between the 4 graphs are marginal and above 20Hz they are unnoticeable. Since the LCD1 has totally different lows (you heard them) the graphs cannot possibly exactly the same from 20Hz to 1kHz. Curious about the LCD1's graph though... Never seen it. The differences must be spread (the tension with which the mebrane is stretched could easily explain these differences. Also on one of the graphs there is a difference between L and R in the lowest region while on the other 3 there is none (well none that matter). This points towards spread as well. The rest of the graphs differ minutely in phase and attack, ringing and resonances so they all must sound very similar.
The HD800 will sound similar in the bass department as the LCD2, only the highs will be different (more pronounced, detailed, that's what you (personally) find lacking in the LCD-2. The bass is NOT going to get MUCH more pronounced (at least not significantly towards the direction of the HD800) no matter what amp you throw at it, at least that's my opinion and not many in the Grotto will agree. The HD800 is auditionable at least so that should not be to much of a problem. Very curious about your findings if you audition one.
a (modded) HD681-B should be closer to the HD-250-II as the bass is less pronouced, more like an HD6** but with more highs. Have been thinking about trying this one, just for the fun of it. They are also cheap so if it's nothing, nothing is lost. The modded F version will sound more in the direction of the HD800 with the same level of Bass. Not interested in that one.
And no... the F version will not sound as good as the LCD-2 which it shouldn't be it's 35x more expensive... well less times if you buy the almost obligatory velours pads.
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Post by colinb on Oct 15, 2010 21:36:09 GMT
It seem I was wrong my graph is very similar to the other one, - Some of the other FR graphs people have posted on the HF LCD2 thread have been a bit more variable than these two though which are obviously very similar. Cheers, Colin This all goes in circles, because that sounds like the conversation I had about it with him. How about a picture of your graph now? Asked my friend Kabeer by email, - he says: "Ah ok, im pretty sure thats an LCD2, the LCD1 doesn't have that bass response. I think the answer will be somewhere on HF lol. im 99% sure thats LCD2, the impulse response, the graph is the same as the other lcd2's etc."
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Post by colinb on Oct 16, 2010 1:52:23 GMT
Cheers Frans, I tend to side with you on the HD800 being not likely to change that much in the bass with different amps, - from my experience of using different amps with headphones you can get some changes but no big ones. The characteristic sound signature of the headphone is always bery similar. The good thing about the HD800 is it might be possible for me to use slight bass boost using the bass tone control of my preamps (I have several preamps so can choose the one with the best effect), - to get a slight bass peak. With the LCD2 I can do the bass boost too but I also need to “fix” the treble for me as well which is much more difficult to balance out as a tone control treble lift on its own does not really sort of the problem I have with it, - more complicated EQing is needed to fix the upper mid and higher treble balance and I can’t do that with my Hifi system,. But I think some simple bass or treble adjustment is possible if the base “flat” sound of the headphone is not too far off a balance I like. So I will indeed audition the HD800 and see what I think of the sound. It unlikely I would need to alter the treble, - just a slight bass boost if necessary and I might be near to done, - it might give a bass peak higher than the HD250II but hopefully I can get it to help and give me a good compromise. Will ask Kabeer if there is an LCD1 FR graph anywhere. The HD681 B does sound intriguing if its indeed more like the HD250II. Mikes one I heard was the original so I guess I should try the “B” version, Thanks for the tip! BTW was just wondering if you know of any headphone amp that has inputs to directly access output section? (like sort of power amp inputs), - bypassing the input stage/volume control, - so I can use with my hifi preamps. Suppose it might be possible to mod a particular headphone amp to get these inputs though but I am no great DIYer! Cheers, Colin The differences between the 4 graphs are marginal and above 20Hz they are unnoticeable. Since the LCD1 has totally different lows (you heard them) the graphs cannot possibly exactly the same from 20Hz to 1kHz. Curious about the LCD1's graph though... Never seen it. The differences must be spread (the tension with which the mebrane is stretched could easily explain these differences. Also on one of the graphs there is a difference between L and R in the lowest region while on the other 3 there is none (well none that matter). This points towards spread as well. The rest of the graphs differ minutely in phase and attack, ringing and resonances so they all must sound very similar. The HD800 will sound similar in the bass department as the LCD2, only the highs will be different (more pronounced, detailed, that's what you (personally) find lacking in the LCD-2. The bass is NOT going to get MUCH more pronounced (at least not significantly towards the direction of the HD800) no matter what amp you throw at it, at least that's my opinion and not many in the Grotto will agree. The HD800 is auditionable at least so that should not be to much of a problem. Very curious about your findings if you audition one. a (modded) HD681-B should be closer to the HD-250-II as the bass is less pronouced, more like an HD6** but with more highs. Have been thinking about trying this one, just for the fun of it. They are also cheap so if it's nothing, nothing is lost. The modded F version will sound more in the direction of the HD800 with the same level of Bass. Not interested in that one. And no... the F version will not sound as good as the LCD-2 which it shouldn't be it's 35x more expensive... well less times if you buy the almost obligatory velours pads.
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Post by colinb on Oct 16, 2010 2:31:09 GMT
Glad you found the info useful. From what I have read about the Graz panels and replacement tweeters for apogees they are apparently better made and better sounding than the originals! And here is a thread from a forum about Graz's "definitive" apogees capable of being drive by low powered valve amps! (triamped of course though) www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/007594.htmlHere is some info on Graz www.stereophile.com/news/101606graz/and some Apogee eye Candy. They look even better than Maggies IMO Scintillas Duetta Signature Divas Divas again Full range
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