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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 10:44:30 GMT
With it's 50 Ohms it's NOT current hungry at all. When a Panda for instance plays full power there is only 200mA drawn (2Watts). That is WITHOUT added output resistors !! About as much as the also considered power hungry K701. 32 Ohms headphones draw MORE current then the Audeze.
The reason it needs more power then most other headphones is the efficiency. in other words how much SPL (dB) it puts out compared to the applied power or voltage. Current is the result of the applied voltage and determined by the impedance.
A G2 can drive it very well though it does not deliver much power (about 50mA at max undistorted power) 0.2 Watts which is considerably less then the Panda. Meaning you have more headroom with the Panda and thus can deliver a higher max SPL.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 13, 2010 10:58:08 GMT
With it's 50 Ohms it's NOT current hungry at all. Oops, you are right. I based it on what I did with the MG3 planar at about 4 ohms output impedance. More LCD2 specs: Sensitivity: 91 dB/1mW Maximum power handling: 15W Frequency Response: 5 Hz – 20 KHz, usable high frequency extension 50 KHz. I'm not sure whether at Sensitivity: 91 dB/1mW that is inefficient as this is HP and not speaker system spec. I will go back home now ...........
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 11:32:45 GMT
Speakers are usually specified at certain dB @ 1 meter distance @ 1W (2.83V@8Ohms) they appear to be in a similar range (91dB/mW) but this HP is not specified @ 1W but 1 mW (1000 x smaller aplied power) and not at 1 meter distance. Normal speakers are around 90dB/W/m the effieciency of the LCD-2 is not bad at all and almost the same as most cans, only a few dB lower, like the K701 which is also less efficient then most other cans.
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 13, 2010 11:40:36 GMT
With it's 50 Ohms it's NOT current hungry at all. When a Panda for instance plays full power there is only 200mA drawn (2Watts). That is WITHOUT added output resistors !! About as much as the also considered power hungry K701. 32 Ohms headphones draw MORE current then the Audeze. The reason it needs more power then most other headphones is the efficiency. in other words how much SPL (dB) it puts out compared to the applied power or voltage. Current is the result of the applied voltage and determined by the impedance. A G2 can drive it very well though it does not deliver much power (about 50mA at max undistorted power) 0.2 Watts which is considerably less then the Panda. Meaning you have more headroom with the Panda and thus can deliver a higher max SPL. You talking to me, huh? I was not misinterpreting loudness level with current/power hunger. LCD-2 can be driven reasonably loud even from an iPod. They are (91db; 50Ω) definitely louder than HE-5 (86dB; 25Ω) on equal volume setting. I was referring to my voltage swing experiments: My HPA is "current limited" to constant 275-280mA. This gives ≈1,9W@25Ω to HE-5. LCD-2 gets equal amount of current in their mainly resistive 50Ω (≈3,7W). Since LCD-2 are more efficient and have higher impedance I was expecting their voltage swing optimum will be higher than HE-5's. It turned out that it isn't so - listening experiments revealed that LCD-2 benefits and flourish on even lower voltages than HE-5. It's how you "fill in" current in a given voltage swing... seems to me LCD-2 want "more filling" at given voltage to sound optimal (not louder!).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 12:01:53 GMT
>> Since LCD-2 are more efficient and have higher impedance I was expecting their voltage swing optimum will be higher than HE-5' <<
Ahh.. but why were you expecting that ?
Both HP's are specified at 1mW BUT since the impedance is different there is a snag.. WHEN you power these HP's from a 0 Ohm output (LS amplifier) and leave the volume pot in the same position the output voltage remains the same. Amps provide voltage and the current is a result of the load.
SO if you use the same volume setting the LCD-2 puts out 91dB at a specific volume setting and you attach the HE-5 this can will put out 88.8 dB (only 2.2 dB difference instead of the 5dB when Watts are the reference).
The LCD-2 has a higher effieciency so when you keep the volume setting equal (if your amp has 0 Ohm output, which it probably doesn't) and therefore is much easier to drive and doesn't need as much power, simply because the efficiency is higher.
The story changes even more in favor of the LCD-2 when the amp has a specific output resistance (most amps vary between 10 and 120 Ohms) In this case voltage devision starts playing a role too. Here the higher resistance of the LCD-2 again has an advantage over the HE-5 in this aspect as more voltage will drop over the cans and less over the internal resistance of the amp making the LCD-2 sound louder then the HE-5 when the same volume setting is used then if there was no output resistance.
When you drive the HE-5 from a 120 Ohm output it looks more like a current drive then voltage drive b.t.w. For this reason I recommend to use low ohmic amps in this case, also because of the high power these cans can disspipate and thus put out ear shattering levels.
In short at a given voltage swing the LCD-2 needs less power (current) then the HE-5. Making the LCD-2 much easier to be driven by most amps.
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FauDrei
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Post by FauDrei on Oct 13, 2010 12:29:26 GMT
Frans, if you change amp's bias - you affect amp's voltage swing, right?
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 14:02:34 GMT
Hi guys, Yeah it seems the reason all phones have decreased output between with raising freq (after 1Khz mainly) is because the transducer is closer to your ear than with speakers, - if there was not the drop in output after 1KHz the sound would be far too bright, due to the way the phone interacts with the ear. Like Franz says the LCD2 FR is unusual in that its very flat from 20Hz to 1Khz, - perhaps that is part of my problem?, - in that this FR is odd for a headphone and I am not used to it. And it also does not have the very typical 6-8 KHz peak that most phones have, - no doubt the HD250II I am used to has this peak. Mick is sending the LCD2 back, - I will give it more time, but its just sounds a bit weird to me. The bass on the LCD2 is obvious very clean and flat down to 10Hz, but the way its presented is different from a headphone like the HD250II, - to me the HD250II has much more obvious greater bass output, and goes a lot louder and louder, - on Head-fi they suggested that this is because closed phones have the effect of cup reflections which means that if a 20Hz bass note is present, - the 1, 2nd and 3rd overtones of this note will also be heard, which are artefacts, and this cannot be EQed out. I agree with this, - its obvious the HD250II does this to quite an extent in the bass (but it does not bleed higher up) and whilst it is no doubt not as accurate sounding as the LCD2s overtone free bass presentation, I find the HD250II a LOT more like listening to a full range pair of speakers so I assume the same overtones occur to varying extents in many speaker systems. I am not saying this is the “right” “natural” way to hear the sound but you get this amazingly solid foundation that I really like. Perhaps I have been too used to this presentation of the HD250IIs in the bass regard, and also the probable 6-8Khz peak and higher treble output, - after all I’ve been using them almost exclusively for 16 years. And back to the Maggies, - with a ribbon tweeter model, - that is a different story compared to other non ribbon tweeter planar speakers and the LCD2, - no drop in treble output at all, - highly extended up the top, - sounds very different from the LCD2. I prefer this great treble extension but perhaps its because I’ve experienced it from a young age and am used to it. All this does point to me giving the LCD2s more time. Which I will do, but this presentation of having vast amount of detail in the treble with it having a slight droop and apparent lack of extension up there for me as well is pretty bizarre sounding to me personally, - especially having been used to the detailed, yet non drooping extended and airy top end of the Magneplanar ribbon tweeter. Perhaps my ear shape makes the LCD2 droop worse than for most people, - hard to tell, - of course I can’t borrow someone else’s ears! But it does sound strange to me. I am sure I could learn to appreciate the very clean and accurate bass they have and the lack of bass colorations and overtones other headphones have down there, but I am not so sure about the treble extension issue, - that’s the major problem I have with them. Cheers, Colin Good sounding should drop (preferably gradually but is extremely difficult to 'taylor' about 10dB from 30 Hz to 20 kHz. This is because speakers (that should be flat to perform well at realistic levels) are further from your head AND you also 'feel' the low lows with your body adding to the experience. To 'emulate' the distance (and damping of higher frequencies over distance) the slope has to be gradual declining. defenitely NOT flat. What it DOES need in the area Alex mentioned (300 Hz - 3kHz) is as low as possible distorion and no (or as low as possible) resonances. In the waterfall diagram this means a very rapid decline in that area. Simply because our brain is focussed most to detecting nuances in that specific area. For low level listening (and to compensate for the human hearing properties) the highs are lifted so they sound natural at lower levels (bathtub characteristic). The LCD-2 too does drop 10 dB like most others but not in a similar way. (see the graphs above) The HD800 goes up again (as do the HD250, DT770, DT990, Grado's, ATH-AD series and alikes) Every can takes time to get used to. fun experiment: Lower the highs and lows for a week by a few dB and your brain will start to 'compensate' and they will sound good again after some time. This is not burn-in but the brain adjusting. Doesn't mean burn in (bedding in, whatever) doesn't exist. It does for a lot of cans. It's not just ONLY the drivers but also the brain that adapts. The influence of this adapting is often contributed to burning in but bare in mind that the brain is a funny thing. If you ever lived near a railroad (I did) your brain will not react to trains passing by anymore after a certain period of time (weeks, months). You sometimes do NOT notice them at all eventhough the sound is loud and can't be overheard. The brain is a funny thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 14:34:19 GMT
Frans, if you change amp's bias - you affect amp's voltage swing, right? What do you exactly mean with the amps bias ? An amplifier has a maximum (open) voltage swing limited by the amps power supply voltage, voltage regulators (if present), and minimum drop-out voltage of the output stage. Also the maximum voltage could be limited by a limiter. The maximum current is determined by the load, output resistance, current limiter (if present), power supply or the way the amp is constructed (in essence also a form of current limiting). Together these 2 determine the maximum power that can be delivered. The way to crank up the output voltage is by increasing the power supply voltage (if possible, certain parts (IC's) have little room for increased voltage, otherwise the caps might be the limiting factor. You can crank up the output current by: a. altering the current limiter. b. fitting smaller output resistors (if possible) c. making changes in the output stage. All these alterations could heat up the amp so care must be taken in this case as temperatures or (more important) maximum capabilities of parts can be exceeded. The HD250II has 'lifted' bass respons (like the DT770 and HD681) so the LCD-2 might appear to have less bass. It's certainly running MUCH deeper then AKG and ATH-AD series but might sound 'comparable' because the lows are not lifted (straight as a nail from 20 Hz to 1kHz while HD250II has a lift of at least 5 dB compared to LCD-2 around 30 Hz. Try listening to the LCD (exclusively) for a week or so. play songs you know have deep, subwoofer type) lows and see if you can used to the presentation. The highs could do with a similar approach. Like you I prefer lifted treble respons.. also already from a young age. Like lifted bass respons too. Funny thing is you often don't notice some cans don't have deep bass until you realise it should be there or put an HD250-II, DT770 or HD681 on your head. It's like attaching a subwoofer to you head. My HD250-II replaced my DT990 which had problems (fixed the driver later on) I liked it better then DT990 but sold it later on when I heard the HD650. Compared them directly (HD580,HD600,HD650 and HD250-II) and was struck by the fact that the voices in the HD650 were clearly less 'raw, distorted' then the other cans. Later when I found headphone.com and their graphs I was proven correct. It has even lower distortion then HD800 I believe. Too bad they don't have graphs for HD250-II
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 16:08:55 GMT
Hi Frans , Yes I agree its too bad they don't have the graphs for the HD250II.
What you say about the distortion of the HD250II, - well in my experience from having tried so many pairs that issue can vary quite a bit, - some examples do have less distortion than others and I had one or two that really sounded low distortion and very nice. Driver manufacturing variations again I suppose. I will heed your advice, -sounds like we are similar - I too have been used to this treble and bass lift since I was a kid, - I remember always turning up the bass and treble on my Dad's Nikko receiver and nearly always having the loudness button on as well! So that might also be where it comes from. The HD250II is not a million miles away from this presentation but the LCD2 obviously is very different with its much flatter presenation and slightly drooping top. I will indeed take your advice and listen exclusively to it for a week and see how its goes.
The HD250II not only has this lift in the bass you describe but also these artefact overtones I was talking about that bolster the bass. I asked a very technical friend for his views on this, - but he forgot to reply, - will ask again. What he says is always interesting.
Did you see the FR graphs from Canjam 2010? They are quite interesting, - let me know if not I will upload them and post up a link.
I heard the older Beyer DT990 (600 ohm version I think it was) and liked the bass and treble but the mid was more sucked out than the HD250II and I did not like that. I know the mid is sucked out a bit on the HD250II but the 990 seemed to be quite a lot more.
I agree the HD650 is very low distortion, - it obvious the more you listen to it, but I personally I did not like it, - its a bit too dark, the treble is not extended enough for me (or not "lifted enough) and not "sparkly" enough for me, and I find the lower mid/upper bass a bit excessive. The best one of that range I found for me was the HD580 which has a bit less of the upper bass peak and is a bit more sparkly soudning. Of course the HD580 is basically the same as the HD600, - just different housing, but same drivers less tightly specified than the HD600, but I've had both and the HD580s sounded exactly the same to me as the HD600 so its a good cheaper substitute and its lighter too which I liked. I sold it on though in the end though as I prefer the HD250II.
Cheers, Colin
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 16:24:39 GMT
Thanks a lot for the info on the HE6, - sounds good in terms of the extension at the top than the LCD2, bit it does kind of sound like it could be a little over the top and a bit fatiguing in the long term from what you describe about this grip it has. But perhaps if the production version sounds more refined it will be much better. I think I saw some pics of the production version on near to the end version, - looks very nice, - and I agree with you it looks far nicer than that prototype. I wonder which version I will get sent to me to try? Cheers, Colin Colin, I have only listened to the HE-6 for a couple of hours plus the unit has been improved upon since the loaner program was started, so take my comments in that light. The HE-6 demands attention! it grabs you and does not let go. I personally do not care for such a presentation, at least not all the time since I listen to music to relax after a hard day at the office. The bass is better than in the HE-5 and the treble is not rolled off, soundstage is decent but I come from the K1000 which remains my favorite can. Fang and others who have heard the final version have informed me the sound of the final unit is much more refined so the jury is out. The final version is much better looking IMO.
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 17:30:32 GMT
I agree with you about the Maggies with Ribbons. - unsurpassed in the top end for sure compared to other speakers. The MGIII is a lovely model, - a used pair these days might have delamination of the voice coils but its not that hard to fix, - I did this on my 3.3Rs myself. I missed a pair of extremely nice Magnepan Tympani IVa that were on Ebay UK a few weeks back that needed repair, - I was the 2nd highest bidder! They are really the ultimate Maggies, - better bass panels apparently than the current TOTL 20.1, and they are more rigid than the 3 series models as them have aluminium reinforcing in them. Shame! But I didn't really have the space for them really I admit so maybe it was for the best! img380.imageshack.us/img380/8928/dsc0677.jpgAs for the Apogees, - I had a pair before (Stages, - very nice) and I would have liked a larger one like a Duetta or Diva, but the problem is they are so heavy, - not manoeuvrable for one person like a Maggie 3 series is. Of course the Apogees have much better build and are far more rigid but the penalty is the weight and inconvenience. And of course they need killer amps capable of arc welding. Maggies are much easier to drive, - the impedance is nothing like as low. I think the non output transformer version of the Apogee Scintilla has 0.3 Ohms impedance! Cheers, Colin This is the frequency response graph that I took from Wikipedia of LCD2. It does show a step 10 db drop from 1 khz onwards. However, we must remember that it will be not representative of what we will actually hear as this is not a speaker system but a HP system. Usually, the most preferred sound, and a sound that sounds closes to a speaker system, is when there is a roll off in the highs for a HP system. Obviously, if not for the taylored roll off after 1 khz, the magneplanar design is relatively more flat in response all the way pass 20 khz than the dynamic HPs. In terms of overall accuracy and distortion, the planar design will roll over the dynamics design. That is why we can hear a more spacial and better creation of the sound stage whenever we compare between them. The planar design does sound more like live music when driven hard within it's linear design. Years ago, I owned a MG3 with a ribbon tweeter. Should be the same model as Colin's father given to Colin. Yes, ribbon tweeter and that does not, and still does not, have the shortcoming of the SMG or even the MG 1.7, MG 1 and MG 2. Until now I still stand by that design which no dynamics have yet exceeded except for the solid bass that only dynamic speakers can recreate. I sold away my MG3 is because I was away from hifi for about 10 years before I made a come back around the time I came to Rockgrotto with the MF X-Dac V3, which I bought to restart my hifi interest, problem years ago. For all info ...........
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 17:32:59 GMT
The Apogee went belly up for two reasons, - because Magnepan had a lawsuit again them for “borrowing” their design. And also the founder Jason Bloom died in the 2003. The Apogee design is quite a bit different to the Magnepan design though, - same principle, but the metal of the voice coil is put on the diaphragm and then the unwanted areas are etched off. Whereas in Magnepans the thin wires are simply laid over the diaphragm, Apogees have far better no compromise construction than Magnepans, - most Magnepans (apart from the Tympanis) are pretty flexy, whereas the Apogees are all solid and as rigid as rock, and weigh a lot more too (NOT a one man job!). Also the Apogee treble ribbons (or Mid/treble ribbons they are called) can also operate at a much lower freq than Magnepans, - down to 500Hz or lower (rather than the 1-2.5 KHz of Maggie ribbons) which is apparently a lot more desirable as the crossover point from tweeter to driver below can be lower and out of the more human sensitive 1Khz area. Cheers, Colin I have always wanted an APOGEE ribbon speakers which will go pass the magneplaner design but unfortunately, it had already gone turtle up. Yes, your amplification has got to be extremely good too as the impedance hovers around 0 ohms. This is the only time in which I will have to turn solid state camper if I have one. But still that doesn't mean solid state is better than a tube amp in terms of actual sound quality. It will overall as a system surpass a tube and dynamic speaker system.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 18:17:17 GMT
>> Did you see the FR graphs from Canjam 2010? They are quite interesting, - let me know if not I will upload them and post up a link. <<
No, I did not you can post a link or PM it.. always interested
I too was a 'turned up bass and treble' person (and loudness too if available). Have to remember also that my speakers at that time had poor bass and treble extension so the lifted bass and treble were also 'compensation' to sound more like expensive systems. What I did to 'kick the habbit' was to turn down the bass and treble sliders to the - region. I listened to this for several weeks and then put the tone control in the middle setting.. Voila... enough bass and treble now.. Was not my idea but someone who knew a lot about perception and sound pointed me to it.
This all came about when I heard electrostatic speakers made from chickenwire and foil with aluminum on it (for packing presents). It was very soft the amp was at full power and still had to kneel beside it but it sounded SOOOO nice and there was no tone control. After that several home made electrostats appeared. No tone control needed ! HiFi got a whole other meaning and got bitten by the bug.
Yet the preference for (slightly !) elevated highs and perhaps lows too remained..
My speakers now have isolinear units from HiVi cheap and GREAT sounding planar tweeters. The elctrostats moved on account of high voltage, kids and cats.
Agree on the old DT990 (current one is better, less sucked out mids). This is why I chose the HD250-II after it went silent on one ear. less sucked out mids, airy-er, tighther bass and DEEP !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 20:29:25 GMT
Well i have read all the replies and technical data so far stated in this thread, can`t honestly say i understand to much about the facts and theories stated here, all i can say is that i think they are a fine set of HP`s, with great visual appeal, comfortable over a long period of listening (3hrs), with just a couple of small niggles, stated in my earlier post. They sounded fantastic to my ears, especially through my Mikes moded with Vintage valves V3 +little pinkie combo, which i brought out of retirement and used for my trial period, my other main Amps:- Frans moded G2, neco mosfet, Mikes moded V-Can+ little pinkie, all gave superb results with the LCD-2`s IMHO. Mick.
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 22:39:01 GMT
Glad to hear they did it for you Mick And hope your own pair is ready very soon. For me I'm still on the search for my "high end" headphone! Will give the LCD2 more time just to make sure (so i get used to the tonal balance like Fran suggests) but I don't think its the one for me Cheers, Colin Well i have read all the replies and technical data so far stated in this thread, can`t honestly say i understand to much about the facts and theories stated here, all i can say is that i think they are a fine set of HP`s, with great visual appeal, comfortable over a long period of listening (3hrs), with just a couple of small niggles, stated in my earlier post. They sounded fantastic to my ears, especially through my Mikes moded with Vintage valves V3 +little pinkie combo, which i brought out of retirement and used for my trial period, my other main Amps:- Frans moded G2, neco mosfet, Mikes moded V-Can+ little pinkie, all gave superb results with the LCD-2`s IMHO. Mick.
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Post by colinb on Oct 13, 2010 23:13:55 GMT
Hi Frans, Your comments on perception are very interesting, - I will for sure give it a go, - maybe even turning down the tone controls for a while to help my brain adjust to the LCD2. Sounds like you've had some great kit speaker wise. here are the Canjam Graphs which I uploaded www.sendspace.com/file/lromstYou can see there are three LCD2s at the beginning! Some info on how the measurements were done www.theaudiobeat.com/canjam2010/canjam2010_tablog_tyll.htmand some info on the LCD2 www.theaudiobeat.com/canjam2010/canjam2010_hp_audeze.htmI have a very technical friend in the USA I met on the Planar asylum forum who saw these graphs and wrote some comments. I've also asked him about the resonance overtone issue in closed headphone compared to open, - will post what he says when he replies. On the graphs he said: - “LCD2, Grado, HD800, and TP do actual 300hz square waves, Only LCD2 does 30 hz squarewave. Wow.”
“I see that the Audeze LCD2 is definitely a good looking performer on the measurements. More so on transient capability and lack of compression than in FR - Which is ok compensated, and fortunately lacks the sharp 6 khz spike that many have, it has a bit of emphasis there. I was heartened to see nice performance on the better Grados. But the Audeze is definitely the best measuring headphone I have ever seen, and the folks talking it over at head fi seem to be uniformly impressed, it is no doubt the best headphone set at real world prices. I am very impressed.”
“The 30 Hz squarewave performance on the LCD2, however, is very much spectacular, it should allow you to get the whole tonal feel of low bass - the extended tails, and natural slow decay, which is normally lost, but you would not get quite as much of a dynamic feel as the phones with big overshoot on the leading edge of the wave.”
I really agree with these last comments on the dynamics of the LCD2, - I mean its superb in the impact and dynamic departments for a planar, - but its clearly not as good as something like the HD250II in that department to my ears, - I guess the HD250II has "a bigger overshoot on the leading edge of the wave" (whatever that means!) Am with you on the DT990 vs HD250II, - HD250II is definitely a more "complete" headphone due to the better mid and much more airier sound/better soundstage and that wonderful deep bass that is a notch up from the DT990. I have not tried the newer DT990 though. Cheers, Colin >> Did you see the FR graphs from Canjam 2010? They are quite interesting, - let me know if not I will upload them and post up a link. << No, I did not you can post a link or PM it.. always interested I too was a 'turned up bass and treble' person (and loudness too if available). Have to remember also that my speakers at that time had poor bass and treble extension so the lifted bass and treble were also 'compensation' to sound more like expensive systems. What I did to 'kick the habbit' was to turn down the bass and treble sliders to the - region. I listened to this for several weeks and then put the tone control in the middle setting.. Voila... enough bass and treble now.. Was not my idea but someone who knew a lot about perception and sound pointed me to it. This all came about when I heard electrostatic speakers made from chickenwire and foil with aluminum on it (for packing presents). It was very soft the amp was at full power and still had to kneel beside it but it sounded SOOOO nice and there was no tone control. After that several home made electrostats appeared. No tone control needed ! HiFi got a whole other meaning and got bitten by the bug. Yet the preference for (slightly !) elevated highs and perhaps lows too remained.. My speakers now have isolinear units from HiVi cheap and GREAT sounding planar tweeters. The elctrostats moved on account of high voltage, kids and cats. Agree on the old DT990 (current one is better, less sucked out mids). This is why I chose the HD250-II after it went silent on one ear. less sucked out mids, airy-er, tighther bass and DEEP !
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XTRProf
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Pssst ! Got any spare capacitors ?
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Post by XTRProf on Oct 14, 2010 5:50:33 GMT
The MGIII is a lovely model, - a used pair these days might have delamination of the voice coils but its not that hard to fix, - I did this on my 3.3Rs myself. Yup, that's the problem with the magnepan speakers. It only affects those planar magnetic panels and not the ribbon this thing on delamination. The aluminium ribbon will also corrode and open circuit with time. Owning this type of speakers do need a maintenance program to keep them working, unlike the dynamic speakers. I will rather have this maintenance program in than keeping a dynamic speaker as the sound that we can get from these speakers is really extraordinary when "pumped" by heavy weight amps. The only downfall is it doesn't have the tight bass wack that we can get from the dynamic speakers. Low extention, no problem at all. Hybrid with a true ribbon tweeter like in the MG3 and MG 20 and their improved versions, these speakers are rather hard to beat OVERALL at their price. Actually, we can keep the maintenance lower by putting them in a drier room like an aircon room. This applies to electrostatic speakers as well with similar maintenance requirements. Just imagine how much more maintenance I will have to chalk up by living in a tropical country. Those fuller range electrostatics in the Martin Logan, Quad, Soundlab, etc range are also extraordinary in the same league as Maggies. Of course, if we really want a full range planar speakers, we will have to look at the Infinity Reference or the Genesis. It was a one time refererence speakers for the iconic HP. The Genesis company that bought over the Infinity Reference IP obviously has an improved Infinity Reference under Genesis brand. Btw, Genesis is owned by one of my countryman. I missed a pair of extremely nice Magnepan Tympani IVa that were on Ebay UK a few weeks back that needed repair, - I was the 2nd highest bidder! They are really the ultimate Maggies, - better bass panels apparently than the current TOTL 20.1, and they are more rigid than the 3 series models as them have aluminium reinforcing in them. Shame! But I didn't really have the space for them really I admit so maybe it was for the best! As for the Tympani, obviously it will go lower as it has a large dedicated bass panel for the bass, one panel for the mid and one for the high similar to the picture. However, the picture isn't the Tympani, right, but 3 pairs of maybe MG3.3 placed side by side? It's limitation is it doesn't have the ribbon tweeter. To get the best out of them, space is a premium and a must have for the bigger Maggies. The placement as in the picture doesn't do justice for the Maggies. As for the Apogees, - I had a pair before (Stages, - very nice) and I would have liked a larger one like a Duetta or Diva, but the problem is they are so heavy, - not manoeuvrable for one person like a Maggie 3 series is. Of course the Apogees have much better build and are far more rigid but the penalty is the weight and inconvenience. And of course they need killer amps capable of arc welding. Maggies are much easier to drive, - the impedance is nothing like as low. I think the non output transformer version of the Apogee Scintilla has 0.3 Ohms impedance! Cheers, Colin Heh, heh ........ Yup, they were build like a tank for the Apogees. Really amp killers near to 0 ohm output impedance which only amps like Mark, Krell, etc have the capability to produce those arc welding current to drive them and survive. Btw, do you know of any company doing the parts for old Apogees like a company for old Thorens 124 TTs? If there is, I think we can grab a cheap Apogee Scintilla and go to heaven literally ......... Gulp........., not heaven but music heaven! THE END
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 5:51:52 GMT
Very interesting stuff...
O.K. based on SPECs ONLY, not only freq graph but also the other graphs. (Too bad the HD650 and HD250-II were not present)
NOTE that these lists would only be based on what was present at the 2010 Canjam. There are more HP's that would be on my list but were not present.
My shopping lists based on specs would be (in THIS order):
1: LCD-2 2: LCD-1 3: HD-800 4: HiFiman HE-5 (Colin will like this one over LCD's... no doubt !, lows comparable with LCD, highs are more prominent)
have to add that I expect the HD800 and HE-5 to fit my personal taste better sonically then LCD1-2 but would give the LCD1 and 2 the first try based on specs.
IF I were not a fan of deep bass extension I might consider:
1: ATH AD2000 2: Grado HP-2 3: Grado HF-1 4: Rudistore Chroma MD-1 5: S2 audio Strawberry doughnut 6: Sony R10 (but has some issues at 3kHz) 7: Sony CD300 (has issues at 2kHz but may not be a deal breaker)
Would NOT consider: Remember this is NOT based on listening tests which might be more favorable then the specs. Based on SPECs ONLY and in NO particular order.
1: ATH-L3000 2: Douggeh Orthodome (absolutely no lows) 3: Grado MS1000 (because of presence of quite audible ringing at 2.4kHz, a waterfall would have clearly showed this) 4: Grado RS-1 with SR60 drivers (in essence an SR60) 5: Harley Orthohog 6: Koss KDE250 (looks like crap) 7: Sennheiser HD201 (also don't like it sonically either) 8: Sennheiser PX200 (on account of lack of treble) 9: Smeggie underpants, both types (resonance issues in the low frequency region, might sound boomy) 10: Sony MDR V900HD (resonances, high distortion, poor LF) 11: Sony Qualia ( One big pile of resonances and distortion !, the waterfall will look like sh!t)
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 10:57:17 GMT
Hey Frans, Those are great insight into the graphs, - you can obvious read them very well. I admit I am not too clued up on this, - what are the main graphs to read? is it the compensated FR plot the most telling FR graph to read?, - and how to you (roughly) interpret the others? and whats important + whats not? (sorry for the noob questions!) I agree the HE5 does look a lot better for me as it still has lows a a more elevated treble than the LCD2. Really bad time to buy one right now though, - used or not, as the HE6 is about to come out, - the prices of the HE5 will decrease a lot. I suppose the Senn HD800 looks like my best to try right now for a "neutral headphone for me". But a lot could be said for waiting before buying a used HD800 as well as the LCD2 really is creaming it in terms of the popularity, - on Head-fi and Head-case at least, - not that Audeze can knock them out fast enough (they can't compete to Sennheiser of course) but when a headphone turns up that most people (probably apart from me) is saying sounds better than the HD800 and cost quite a bit less the HD800 prices on the used market will take a hit eventually I reckon (well I hope anyway). Apparently Sennhesier might have some planned action for the Ortho attack, and there is a strong rumour they are actually developing an top of the line Ortho of their own to compete with the LCD2. Will be interesting if that comes out but I guess it will be pricey. From what I read about the little known Audeze LCD1 (their first headphone), - that its supposed to be nothing like as good as the LCD2. What about it measure better?, - looks very similar to a graph noob like me! Yeah its a shame the HD650 and HD250II were not included, - the HD250II I know is not considered a serious headphone by many people who probably have not heard it and its also not very well known obviously. But really a Senn HD6** should have been included, - but I know a lot of the headphone buffs don't consider them serious headphone either! The HD800 is like the first headphone Sennhesier brought out these guys seem to rate. I actually just bought a "Thunerpants" to try, - a very nice looking one. I have some experience of tuning Orthos as I did that with my Yamaha YH100, - I am sure it was not have enough highs for me but I can easily coax some out of it with some tricks. Its easier to tune than a LCD2 is as its a closed ortho not open. I could even strip out all the damping Smeggy put in there and use my own starting from scratch. If the TP is no good for me I should be able to easily resell for the same cash I paid for it. Cheers, Colin Very interesting stuff... O.K. based on SPECs ONLY, not only freq graph but also the other graphs. (Too bad the HD650 and HD250-II were not present) NOTE that these lists would only be based on what was present at the 2010 Canjam. There are more HP's that would be on my list but were not present. My shopping lists based on specs would be (in THIS order): 1: LCD-1 2: LCD-2 3: HD-800 4: HiFiman HE-5 (Colin will like this one over LCD's... no doubt !, lows comparable with LCD, highs are more prominent) have to add that I expect the HD800 and HE-5 to fit my personal taste better sonically then LCD1-2 but would give the LCD1 and 2 the first try. IF I were not a fan of deep bass extension I might consider: 1: ATH AD2000 2: Grado HP-2 3: Grado HF-1 4: Rudistore Chroma MD-1 5: S2 audio Strawberry doughnut 6: Sony R10 (but has some issues at 3kHz) 7: Sony CD300 (has issues at 2kHz but may not be a deal breaker) Would NOT consider: Remember this is NOT based on listening tests which might be more favorable then the specs. Based on SPECs ONLY and in NO particular order. 1: ATH-L3000 2: Douggeh Orthodome (absolutely no lows) 3: Grado MS1000 (because of presence of quite audible ringing at 2.4kHz, a waterfall would have clearly showed this) 4: Grado RS-1 with SR60 drivers (in essence an SR60) 5: Harley Orthohog 6: Koss KDE250 (looks like crap) 7: Sennheiser HD201 (also don't like it sonically either) 8: Sennheiser PX200 (on account of lack of treble) 9: Smeggie underpants, both types (resonance issues in the low frequency region, might sound boomy) 10: Sony MDR V900HD (resonances, high distortion, poor LF) 11: Sony Qualia ( One big pile of resonances and distortion !, the waterfall will look like sh!t)
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 11:53:16 GMT
Yeah agree with you on the Delam, - due to the useless 3M glue they used on the Maggies. Its better to completely rebuild the drivers if you have the time, but a little delam can be repaired without too much trouble. As for the bass whack etc, - there a lot of room for improvement but stiffening up the cabinets. Maggies are made to a price point and always have been and what is poor is the quality of the frame in terms of flex, the stands, and the crossover components too. If you look on the planar asylum forum its full of structural mods, - the first thing is to put on some proper, rigid tall stands to stop a lot of the flex (you can go DIY or retail) then strengthen the frame with aluminium U tube or L-brackets. And people also rebuild them completely in new frames as well, - one semi pro that does this is Peter Gunn, - who owns Magnestand. here are a few pics. www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/mmg12.jpgwww.indiespinzone.com/mag/pics/all04.jpgwww.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/6e.jpgwww.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/images/100_0930.jpg[/quote][/url] You can see this type of construction is now no compromise,, - improves the sound massively apparently especially the bass. Liek I mentioned before of course stock apogees are also made to no compromise. The bass whack still might not rival a top dynamic but the improvement is worthwhile, - I might try l brackets and proper stand on my Maggies and upgrade the crossovers too with air core inductor and all polypropylene caps. I have played with going active too but its a little too fiddly for me! The pic of the Tympanis are Tympanis, - those are the Tympani IVa. Two of those units are bass panels, - the other slightly smaller one has both the midrange and ribbon tweeter in it. The driver area of the 2 bass sections in total is greater than the current top of the range 20.1. Here is the auction I missed, - different color socks. You can see the ribbon. cgi.ebay.co.uk/Magneplanar-Tympani-IVa-15000-three-panel-ribbon-units-/260665505647?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item3cb0dff76fReal shame I missed that, - an opportunity like that is unlikely to come up in the UK again. They had non working bass panels, - all this is is the voice coil wires have corroded somewhere losing contact, - its fixable, - might have been an easy or a big rebuild job. Its quite likely someone would have bought those tympanis solely for their great bass panels, - they can go lower than the 3 series, - down to 25 Hz I think. Here are some more pics of the IVa usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/7663/audioden3.JPGwww.superbadcat.com/images/studio/tympanis.jpgYou can even the bass panels with a 3 series as here, - tympani bass panels with some 3.6Rs. The 3.6R has the extra wood strip to one side. gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=18194&f=IMG_4332.JPG usr.audioasylum.com/images/3/36636/CIMG02194.JPGThe Tympani IVa was the top of the range 80s Maggie brought out alongside the MGIII, - was more than double the price I think. the other famous Tympani is the late 70s Tympani 1D, - that one does not have the ribbon. Its apparently very good though, and is considered one of the best speakers of all time. Of course you need serious space for tympani, - a long room is needed, - near to 30ft minimum! As for Apogees, - yes there is a guy in Australia who makes his own parts and he is very well regarded, - his name is "Graz" and he has even brought out "new" Apogees of his own. These have modern panels and different crossover design and are much much easier to drive, - sensible(ish!) impedance and even high sensitivities I think for most models, - pricey though, but considered by many to be real high end and I've heard many people consider these the ultimate speaker! www.apogeeacoustics.com/synergy1_5.htmlthis one is based on the Scintilla, - 2.5 ohms impedance, - 95dB sensitivity! Unsure of price but A LOT I would think. Here is another www.apogeeacoustics.com/classic.html20,000 AU dollars! He for sure makes new tweeters and bass panels for Apogees, - the Stages I had were installed with new "Graz" ribbons made by him. In the UK a place called Reality Audio distributes his stuff. www.apogeeacoustics.com/repairsapogeeribbons.htmlYou are right though, - its a very good idea to get an older non working Apogee and buy new panels, - I like the look of the Scintillas or teh Divas personally, but am put off by the weight. A guy on teh Planar forum told me the Divas (not sure about the Scintillas) need 100% to be actively triamped for decent performance. I suppose the price of each panel is quite a lot but I guess it would be worth it for the speaker you are getting of the money. Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 13:47:43 GMT
Explaining squarewaves and the other graphs and their relation and writing it down in understandable terms for everyone + some psychoacoustic and mechanical explanations would take me 1 to 2 weeks of writing an article on it with explanatory pictures and such.
Your remark about the LCD-1 and 2 is valid. This goes for other cans too.
The 'list' was purely on specs and the LCD1 and 2 are very close on specs but there are slight differences. Have to add that people like Mike and Alex describe small differences that appear to be unmeasurable and unquantifiable as huge and 'completely other levels'. In this light the small differences for people that listen/hear in the same manner could result in them being of the opinion that LCD2 is FAR superior of LCD1 and others may only notice slight over even no differences at all. Also the conditions and reviewers themselves as well as the used equipment might have a say. Unless of coarse everyone that compared them side by side on the same amp at that location completely agree.
Also you would have to realise that 2 similar cans (2 HD250-II or AKGK701 for example) might sound different in the same setup. Another factor may be efficiency. If the LCD2 has 1 or 2 dB higher efficiency this might be interpreted as sounding 'fuller/better'. Also some people claim thay can hear absolute phase. If this is the case and the phase is 180 degrees wrong (+ and - on both drivers are 'reversed') this might also throw people off. Just like L and R being 'wrong' by the way.
Also it is a matter of taste/preference as well as many cans I would not consider based on specs might very well sound nice (when the mentioned distortion or resonances are not annoying or even 'add' to the musicality (like Tubes and vinyl 'adds').
The Sony Qualia for instance measures like absolte crap (not as bad as Koss KDE250) and this might also be true for the Smeggie yet they could sound pretty good to some people and less to others.
Similar to why some people say the ATH-AD700 and Grado's have excellent bass and they are not missing anything in fact find the bass better then on HD600 for instance. This is due to the fact that the harmonics of the bass ARE present and the harmonics make the bass sound 'tight'. The fact that real deep lows (subwoofer kind) are not present at full volume but at a (much) lower level still makes the listener conclude there is nothing wrong with the bass at all and rate it as having good bass (even extended) while you would only hear the real deep bass when in direct comparison and at the proper volume.
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 14:03:41 GMT
Hi Frans, No problems re the graphs, - I though they were difficult to interprete!. Do you know of any online guides or anything that could get me started into understadning it? If not don't worry. I agree yes I was aware the Qualiain particular measures very poorly as I hear about that before, - but many people consider it to sound very nice. Agree with you two there is obviously a huge variation in what an particular individual hears! And there are widely varying tastes too etc. Am a bit lost with your last paragraph!? (abtou the bass bit) Can you explain a bit more? (if not don't worry). And was wondering how would you would describe the bass of the HD250II compared to other phones you've experienced like the HD650 for example? Cheers, Colin Explaining squarewaves and the other graphs and their relation and writing it down in understandable terms for everyone + some psychoacoustic and mechanical explanations would take me 1 to 2 weeks of writing an article on it with explanatory pictures and such. Your remark about the LCD-1 and 2 is valid. This goes for other cans too. The 'list' was purely on specs and the LCD1 and 2 are very close on specs but there are slight differences. Have to add that people like Mike and Alex describe small differences that appear to be unmeasurable and unquantifiable as huge and 'completely other levels'. In this light the small differences for people that listen/hear in the same manner could result in them being of the opinion that LCD2 is FAR superior of LCD1 and others may only notice slight over even no differences at all. Also the conditions and reviewers themselves as well as the used equipment might have a say. Unless of coarse everyone that compared them side by side on the same amp at that location completely agree. Also you would have to realise that 2 similar cans (2 HD250-II or AKGK701 for example) might sound different in the same setup. Another factor may be efficiency. If the LCD2 has 1 or 2 dB higher efficiency this might be interpreted as sounding 'fuller/better'. Also some people claim thay can hear absolute phase. If this is the case and the phase is 180 degrees wrong (+ and - on both drivers are 'reversed') this might also throw people off. Just like L and R being 'wrong' by the way. Also it is a matter of taste/preference as well as many cans I would not consider based on specs might very well sound nice (when the mentioned distortion or resonances are not annoying or even 'add' to the musicality (like Tubes and vinyl 'adds'). The Sony Qualia for instance measures like absolte crap (not as bad as Koss KDE250) and this might also be true for the Smeggie yet they could sound pretty good to some people and less to others. Similar to why some people say the ATH-AD700 and Grado's have excellent bass and they are not missing anything in fact find the bass better then on HD600 for instance. This is due to the fact that the harmonics of the bass ARE present and the harmonics make the bass sound 'tight'. The fact that real deep lows (subwoofer kind) are not present at full volume but at a (much) lower level still makes the listener conclude there is nothing wrong with the bass at all and rate it as having good bass (even extended) while you would only hear the real deep bass when in direct comparison and at the proper volume.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 14:30:20 GMT
I prefer the bass of the HD250-II over HD650 just like I prefer the (modded) HD681 over HD650 in this aspect. I prefer the mids (quality and distortion) of HD650 over HD250-II and HD681. Prefer the highs of HD250-II and (modded) HD681 over HD650.
It all boils down to the fact that HD650 has a preference in the lowto mid-lows where the other two (like the DT770) start their emphasis in a lower region from deep bass to lows and have less pronounced mid lows.
a Bass (when played) has a high level of harmonics when the finger releases the snare which die out much faster then the ground wave. (Same goes for bass drum when kicked) The ground wave is very low in frequency but our brain focusses more on the harmonics to recreate an 'image'. So missing the ground wave (because lower frequencies below 50Hz are lower in amplitude) does not negatively affect the experience. So cans that some (including me) find 'aenemic' others will describe as 'tight' because the harmonics and their relation to the ground wave that dies out less fast is not of importance for them to get a good 'picture'.
The lowest groundwave frequency is 32Hz in music. Except for the biggest organ pipes (32 foot I believe) which manage 16 Hz which is not actually heard but more 'experienced' or felt. So a reproduction from 32Hz (-0.5 dB) is already sufficient in almost all cases. the harmonics from these notes are at 64 and 128 Hz even up to 1 kHz which are more important then the ground wave for reproduction. For this reason cans that already drop off from 100Hz might still have a good sense of 'deep' and good bass reproduction for a lot of people. Just not for me as I know the groundwave should be there and 'MUST' hear it to get a smile on my face. For me it's not 'complete' if the groundwave is at a lower level. For others this is not of importance as they hear the bass and appears to them as tighter as when they do hear the ground wave at a higher level which 'obscures' the harmonics to them.
The HD800 and HE-5 will probably sound aenemic to you also (like the HD800 did for me). they do not have a hump in the 30Hz to 100Hz region which we seem to prefer. Also liked the DT770 in bass level, but not quality, I found it to resonate and sound colored and a bit bloated. All bass notes seem to be similar, like you get from a badly adjusted bass reflex speaker.
I had a modded HD681 side by side with the HD800 and found them to be very similar in EQ aside from the bass of the HD681 which was more pronounced and thus better for me. I thought the HD800 was a bit bass shy, as some agree reading reviews. Comfort, build quality, cable microphonics and distortion and imaging (angled drivers like LCD2) was better in HD800 ofcoarse. NOT 20x better then the modded HD681 in my opinion (I seem to be a loner ?) in that it is worth 20 times the money I paid for the modded HD681. a VFM thing for me. I am not looking for the holy grail or to milk the last droplet out of a system and pay huge amounts to get it. I don't need that to really enjoy music.
The HD800 does have bass and a good one, just not very obvious or outspoken. I expect the LCD2 and HE-5 to be somewhat similar in this aspect. They would have to be played at a higher volume to become truly impressive in the bass department IMO..
I hope this makes sense..
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Post by colinb on Oct 14, 2010 15:17:10 GMT
Hi Frans, Ahh this is very useful, - difficult to know for sure but it does very likely we both share the same preference tastes in the sound of headphones and we both need this same peak in the bass region between 30-100Hz. The LCD2 does not have this peak obviously and to me it sound lacking in the bass in terms of it being not as full enough sounding compared to the HD250II and I guess this is why. I bet if the HD250II FR was there it would have a peak someone in the bass in the exact region you specify. All the stuff I have read about the HD800 and what you say too does indicate it unlikely to have the sort of bass FR I want, as its does not have this peak, although otherwise its got very good quality bass like you say. Same goes for the HE5 and I guess the upcoming HE6 as well. So I am a bit stuck really! They are all more similar to the LCD2 in the bass than the HD250II The HD800 is likely to have the right sort of treble for me though and the HE5/6 as well. The problem with the LCD2 is got neither treble nor bass to my tastes so it’s a double whammy! Might be possible to adjust, but I am not so sure its worth it. It could better to find another headphone that sounds better to me from the start, - what do you think? I tried Mikes fully modified HD681 before. It did indeed have the sort of bass I want and was very impressive down there but I had a problem with the heapdhone in that it sounded sort of like the “loudness button” was too switched on all the time TOO much (if you see what I mean), - it was a bit over the top even for me, - the midrange is too sort o fthick soudn and sort of leaks a bit into the bass (which the HD250II does not). And I found the mid and treble are nothing like as neutral and as clean as the HD250II in my opinion. Perhaps your HD681 is different though. But I agree it’s an extremely good value headphone for the money. Other headphones I found pretty good (though not as good as the HD250II obviously) were the HD25-I, which I guess has this bass peak to some extent too. And I did hear the DT770 before and I agree with you, - it had the right sort of bass peak for me but it was too coloured and a bit bloated too like you describe. I agree with you entirely about the HD650 vs HD250II. I too prefer the bass and highs of the HD250II but in general prefer the mids of the HD6** range. And I agree the HD6** range has an obvious lower midrange/upper bass peak which I did not like. The peak in the HD250II is a lot lower and it’s a lot better sounding for me because of this. So I think our ears/brains must be pretty similar!. And if that’s the case I probably don’t actually recommend the LCD2 to you either, - unlikely to have either the bass or treble balance you want!, if you are similar to me! I agree with you too, - all these headphones with a flatter bass FR would need to be played very loud for me to hear a satisflying bass, - and that’s obviously a bad idea for you hearing. Also the LCD2 in general I find a bit difficult to listen to when its a bit loud (not even mega loud) - the midrange sort of hurts. And its well known that it sound good at low volume, - which is great for most people but at low volume the bass problem is more of an issue for me. So yeah I’m a bit stuck really for a high end headphone. I think a closed back is right for me in general, - I don’t see an open back anywhere with the sort of bass I need apart from the semi open HD681. There is the Denon D7000 which could possibly have the sort of balance I want but its quite pricey and I’m not convinced it would sound better for me than the HD250II anway, - would need to hear it first. And I really want an Ortho as well if possible . I think a good bet would be to try to modify the Thunderpants to my tastes, - could take a while but it might be possible. Its quite easy to modify a closed back planar like the TP to your tastes as it’s a dipole so you can easily play with damping and other things behind the driver and get big variations in everything and tune it to your tastes. I guess its harder to modify the sound of a dynamic phone so easily. Its quite easy to get more treble out of a closed back ortho, - there are a few ticks you can use, like small reflection discs etc on the back of the drive. This is the exact TP I am buying, - looks very nice, - its on its way now. Bought it from the guy who bought it from Smeggy in this advert www.head-case.org/forums/audio-gear-sale/8428-tps-sale.htmlBeware if any of you look for a TP, - some don’t have the screws and can’t be opened/modified. I made sure I bought one which could be opened! There was another extremely nice one for sale recently which I would have gone for for sure but it was not open-able! www.head-case.org/forums/audio-gear-sale/8934-thunderpants-sale.htmlThanks for the further explanation for the bass frequencies etc, - gonna have to go and try to understand all this now! Will get back to you later on that! Glad to meet someone who has similar headphone tastes/requirements! Cheers, Colin I prefer the bass of the HD250-II over HD650 just like I prefer the (modded) HD681 over HD650 in this aspect. I prefer the mids (quality and distortion) of HD650 over HD250-II and HD681. Prefer the highs of HD250-II and (modded) HD681 over HD650. It all boils down to the fact that HD650 has a preference in the lowto mid-lows where the other two (like the DT770) start their emphasis in a lower region from deep bass to lows and have less pronounced mid lows. a Bass (when played) has a high level of harmonics when the finger releases the snare which die out much faster then the ground wave. (Same goes for bass drum when kicked) The ground wave is very low in frequency but our brain focusses more on the harmonics to recreate an 'image'. So missing the ground wave (because lower frequencies below 50Hz are lower in amplitude) does not negatively affect the experience. So cans that some (including me) find 'aenemic' others will describe as 'tight' because the harmonics and their relation to the ground wave that dies out less fast is not of importance for them to get a good 'picture'. The lowest groundwave frequency is 32Hz in music. Except for the biggest organ pipes (32 foot I believe) which manage 16 Hz which is not actually heard but more 'experienced' or felt. So a reproduction from 32Hz (-0.5 dB) is already sufficient in almost all cases. the harmonics from these notes are at 64 and 128 Hz even up to 1 kHz which are more important then the ground wave for reproduction. For this reason cans that already drop off from 100Hz might still have a good sense of 'deep' and good bass reproduction for a lot of people. Just not for me as I know the groundwave should be there and 'MUST' hear it to get a smile on my face. For me it's not 'complete' if the groundwave is at a lower level. For others this is not of importance as they hear the bass and appears to them as tighter as when they do hear the ground wave at a higher level which 'obscures' the harmonics to them. The HD800 and HE-5 will probably sound aenemic to you also (like the HD800 did for me). they do not have a hump in the 30Hz to 100Hz region which we seem to prefer. Also liked the DT770 in bass level, but not quality, I found it to resonate and sound colored and a bit bloated. All bass notes seem to be similar, like you get from a badly adjusted bass reflex speaker. I had a modded HD681 side by side with the HD800 and found them to be very similar in EQ aside from the bass of the HD681 which was more pronounced and thus better for me. I thought the HD800 was a bit bass shy, as some agree reading reviews. Comfort, build quality, cable microphonics and distortion and imaging (angled drivers like LCD2) was better in HD800 ofcoarse. NOT 20x better then the modded HD681 in my opinion (I seem to be a loner ?) in that it is worth 20 times the money I paid for the modded HD681. a VFM thing for me. I am not looking for the holy grail or to milk the last droplet out of a system and pay huge amounts to get it. I don't need that to really enjoy music. The HD800 does have bass and a good one, just not very obvious or outspoken. I expect the LCD2 and HE-5 to be somewhat similar in this aspect. They would have to be played at a higher volume to become truly impressive in the bass department IMO.. I hope this makes sense..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2010 15:18:35 GMT
www.headphone.com/learning-center/about-headphone-measurements.phpThere is a good tutorial which adresses the basics b.t.w. The filter for Mike's HD681 was very subtle in filtering as he had stated it sounded good to him without the filter. The filter I used when comparing was more like the '2nd edition' filter which drops the excessive highs considerably almost down to HD650 levels. Because the highs have dropped the midrange becomes more prominent (less sucked out as the treble simply masks it) and becomes better. Not as sweet as the HD650 though or the SR850 HD668B even. I can only 'remember' the HD250-II, can't use them side by side for comparison anymore. I bet the LCD2 sounds good to a lot of K701/K501 owners as this is more their ideal can then hours. I am glad Mick likes it as he ordered one and got a sneak preview.
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