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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 10:11:38 GMT
Wills Hifi PC Part 2 (the boy’s got brains) ;D So after selecting and installing the Windows 7 OS, installing Foobar, the creative media player and the sound card drivers she’s ready to play some music. Well not quite. I found a serious conflict between the drivers supplied with the sound card and Windows 7 which caused the whole thing to lock up. Fear not though Asus provide drives for Windows 7 on their website so it’s just a matter of downloading and installing them. So now it plays music and I must say that I’m very impressed with the sound so far. ATM I’m using Foobar as it’s what I’m used to but I’m getting a niggling click between tracks with the creative. I’m sure it can be sorted in due course but I’m pretty busy at the moment so that’s going to have to wait. So far I’ve checked out 16/44, wave and flac 24/96 and 24/192 flac and they all play beautifully through the cheapy gigawork DAC which does not up sample. I’ve also had the chance to compare HDD and flash drive playback with 16/44 wav and flac and to me the flash/wav sounds slightly better in a more open and clear way. So the next step is to link the Wilber 02 up to my LAN network and get net connected to allow me to download music directly. So I’m just waiting on the anti-virus software to turn up just to make sure Wilber stays well. ;D I’ll report back once I’ve had more listening time but IMHO it’s sounding pretty darn good. So it’s onward and upward take care
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Mar 28, 2011 17:07:26 GMT
It outputs only 4A at 12VDC, but beside this it looks a bit better than a SMPS. MINWA has also a couple of other PSU's that could be interesting. www.minwa.com.hk/
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Mar 28, 2011 17:19:11 GMT
Anyone interested? This offer isn't exclusive to staff members anymore... The rules: – You pay the postage with PayPal. You can pay after I have shipped it. – Because the postage will be rather high (more than 2kg), it doesn't make sense to ship beyond Europe. Continental Europe will be slightly cheaper. – I need some time to make a parcel. I can't ship it instantly. – You obligate to post in the RG forum about your project with the t5725. A few pics would be nice, but not mandatory. I decided to do something similar as Mike. I want to get rid of some unused stuff. In my case, it's mostly computer stuff. I have a lot of computers and simply can't use everything. I'll give away some of this stuff for free (beside cost of postage which has to be paid with PayPal). First item that I'll let go is a HP t5725 thin client with 1GB memory and 512MB flash memory (on-board placed on a 1.8" PATA connector). It has six USB2 ports (two on the front, four on the rear side), parallel, serial and PS/2 mouse+keyboard ports. Video out is DB15/VGA. It has not a lot of processor power but the used AMD Geode NX 1500 isn't that bad. In fact, it's a low-power version of the Athlon XP, Athlon MP or Athlon XP-M with a Thoroughbred B core with 1GHz. The used chipset is from SIS with integrated Mirage graphics. It should be sufficient for audio playback if used with Windows XP (maybe XP embedded as sold by HP with the t5720 which is the same hardware as the t5725, but with WinXP embedded instead of a custom Linux) or a light Linux distribution. There's a 1.8" PATA socket on the board, but cables for that are hard to find (as are 1.8" PATA drives). I'd suggest to use the USB2 ports for flash storage. Booting from an USB drive is no problem (CD/DVD-ROM or flash/hd storage). What is really interesting is the fact that the system is cooled passive with a headpipe system and there are no fans. Power is provided by an external SMPS PSU (12V DC, positive polarity) and that PSU could be replaced by a custom PSU for audio purposes. The PCI slot can be used only with an optional HP expansion case (which I don't have), but you can build an own case if you want. Maybe a PCI riser card could allow placement of a PCI card in a low-profile hifi-style case. To use the integrated heatpipe, you'd have to use also the inner steel frame (while replacing only the outer case parts). The integrated graphics is rather slow and it's somewhat tricky since some Linux distros don't had/have appropriate driver support. The system is in almost new condition and I'll let it go for free. You'd have to pay only the postage costs. I guess the package will be over 2kg, you should expect postage costs for up to 5kg packages. This offer is exclusive for RG staff members and if Mike, Frans or Alex are interested, they'd be the first ones on my list. At least in Alex's case, I think the postage costs would be too high anyway. If you are interested, please PM me. All the best, Christian en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geode_%28processor%29h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodClassId=-1&contentType=SupportManual&prodTypeId=12454&prodSeriesId=3221863BTW: An Atom system (even with an Atom 230) will be faster than this system. But as mentioned above, it should be enough processing power for audio playback.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 18:34:33 GMT
Hi Elysion Anyone interested? This offer isn't exclusive to staff members anymore... The rules: – You pay the postage with PayPal. You can pay after I have shipped it. – Because the postage will be rather high (more than 2kg), it doesn't make sense to ship beyond Europe. Continental Europe will be slightly cheaper. – I need some time to make a parcel. I can't ship it instantly. – You obligate to post in the RG forum about your project with the t5725. A few pics would be nice, but not mandatory. That's a very generous offer and if I'd not built mine already i would jump at it. hopefully someone else will be tempted. any time you feel like having a clear out of you music collection just let me know you have good taste. i tend to go a bit more sparse and glitchy in a basic channel sort of way. anyhow I'm now starting to switch off unwanted functions in my windows 7 OS. I've switched out Windows media player as i have no need for it and also that annoying updater thing. I'd love some advice from anyone with experience regarding how much can be switched off without instability problems kicking in. take care
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Will
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Post by Will on Mar 28, 2011 19:28:51 GMT
Hi Shaun, Good Stuff on getting him up and running! I know where to come if I have any problems, now! As for services, have a look here, to get a feel: www.askvg.com/windows-7-services-that-can-be-safely-set-to-manual/www.computingunleashed.com/list-of-services-in-windows-7-that-can.htmlsmallvoid.com/articles/windows-7-win7/services-guide/This will get you going, but there are probably more that can be played with. It does depend on what you want your musicPC to do. I've seen one guide to music on the PC that advocates turning off all networking programs and services, as who needs internet connectvity (?) Well I do, for downloading hi-res stuff. The last link may be the most useful, as at least you can have a guess at what the service does. It does seem that setting to Manual is the safest way to go, as well. Good Luck, Shaun, you are forging ahead here!
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Post by Will on Mar 28, 2011 19:32:30 GMT
It outputs only 4A at 12VDC, but beside this it looks a bit better than a SMPS. MINWA has also a couple of other PSU's that could be interesting. www.minwa.com.hk/Nice link, Christian, and quite apt for those of us using this d510 motherboard. I measured current draw a while back, with HDD, sound card, keyboard and mouse connected, whilst playing a hi-res file. Steady state was 2.4A, with a max of 3A, so that linear supply is spot on! Oh, and a very generous offer with that HP box, as Shaun said, if I hadn't already.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 22:13:28 GMT
Hi Shaun, Good Stuff on getting him up and running! I know where to come if I have any problems, now! As for services, have a look here, to get a feel: www.askvg.com/windows-7-services-that-can-be-safely-set-to-manual/www.computingunleashed.com/list-of-services-in-windows-7-that-can.htmlsmallvoid.com/articles/windows-7-win7/services-guide/This will get you going, but there are probably more that can be played with. It does depend on what you want your musicPC to do. I've seen one guide to music on the PC that advocates turning off all networking programs and services, as who needs internet connectvity (?) Well I do, for downloading hi-res stuff. The last link may be the most useful, as at least you can have a guess at what the service does. It does seem that setting to Manual is the safest way to go, as well. Good Luck, Shaun, you are forging ahead here! Hi Will thanks for the links they look like just the thing to get me started. I'm thinking of starting with a gentle trim just to get the ball rolling. yes Internet connection is going to be an important must have for me to as i also intend to download Hi Res file (legal ones ;D). so protection is a must for me I've added and external 1TB HDD for storing my wav files and intend to use flash drive for the Hi Res stuff. the HDD is just a make weight just to give me some music to play. I'll replace it once good SDD become a bit more affordable. on the wish list at the moment are 1) an internal blue ray burner powered with a linear supply 2) a way of remote controlling the Wilbur. I've seen some nice looking ones in the Logitec Harmony range but need to look into that more deeply. any suggestions much appreciated. so time to read and start the boys first hair cut. lets hope i manage to miss his ears I'm sure the list is going to grow but just some wishful thinking thanks for the help and advice it's sounding pretty good take care
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2011 9:43:08 GMT
Hi All Alan has just posted a tutorial on Windows 7 which I've started to work through. rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=6551thanks again Alan. i had a listen to Diana Krall - quiet nights 24/96 flack on flash drive through the Wilbur/modified gigawork/Class A / K701 last night. it's just the best digital replay I've ever heard and really shows what digital can do. i never thought that I'd be saying stuff like smooth, natural and balanced about digital playback but that's what I'm hearing. the only question for me is why didn't i do this years ago? very very impressive take care
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Mar 30, 2011 23:29:19 GMT
It outputs only 4A at 12VDC, but beside this it looks a bit better than a SMPS. MINWA has also a couple of other PSU's that could be interesting. www.minwa.com.hk/Nice link, Christian, and quite apt for those of us using this d510 motherboard. I measured current draw a while back, with HDD, sound card, keyboard and mouse connected, whilst playing a hi-res file. Steady state was 2.4A, with a max of 3A, so that linear supply is spot on! Oh, and a very generous offer with that HP box, as Shaun said, if I hadn't already..... Actually, I made a mistake in the post above: I've ordered two MINWA S9125GS linear regulated PSU's. Those output only 2.5A at 12VDC, but 4A at 1.5, 3, 4.5 and 6VDC. That's not enough for the Mini-ITX boards (especially those with NVIDIA chipsets or the new AMD Zacate/Brazos boards). The link posted by me above pointed not to a specific products also. It pointed to the linear regulated PSU section of the MINWA website. Luckily, there are also linear regulated PSU's available from MINWA that output up to 5A at 12VDC. I guess you have seen them already. The current intel Atom mainboards would not be my choice for the ultimate low power, low noise music PC. The intel boards are of good quality though and they are cheap and available without problem. intel supports its motherboards also very well. BIOS update are released quite often and the boards run stable. The follwing motherboards offer better performance and/or more features. Most of them cost more than the intel D510 for example. My favourite is the AsRock A330ION, which offers good bang for the buck: www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=A330IONAsus has also a lot of interesting Atom and Zacate/Brazos motherboards. Some Zacate/Brazos boards are available in DTX and Micro-ATX form factors and offer more slots than the Mini-ITX boards: www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=AByqhT5xpkAgbr26&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=iIZKMXSj0jZKiebE&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=nF8GThJRwspPni6l&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=9BmKhMwWCwqyl1lz&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=JhJ03CRwku0lzT6B&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=qSoDxhM5mAk1F607&templete=2I know that the boards above have mostly PCI-Express slots. Some soundcards still need 32-bit legacy PCI slots. At least the bigger Zacate/Brazos boards have 32-bit PCI slots. A good choice are IMO also the nettop PC's from AsRock: www.asrock.com/nettop/index.aspIf I shoud choose a motherboard of the current intel Atom product range, I'd go for this one: www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GSEJT/D945GSEJT-overview.htmThe current top of the line intel Atom motherboard looks rather obsolete in comparison (no DVI or HDMI ports, legacy ports that no one wants, no direct 12VDC power input, much profile of the on-board components): www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/db-D525MW/D525MW-overview.htm
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Will
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Post by Will on Mar 31, 2011 13:37:19 GMT
Interesting post, Christian.
When I was creating the specification for what I wanted in a motherboard, I came up with the following:
1. PCI slot - the majority of external soundcards are/were pci, especially the likes of the well-regarded juli@. More quality soundcards are becoming available, though, with pci-e slots
2. It could take 4Gb memory.
3. Power input - initially, I thought that having a 12V input to the motherboard was the best solution, but in the end that same motherboard will most probably use dc-dc convertors (think small SMPS in very simple terms), to get the other voltage that the motherboard requires. I've gone for the typical pc power socket, as that way, I can build up a linear PC PSU. Yes, there will still be (fewer?) dc-dc convertors on this motherboard, but at least I will have addressed that issue a bit.
4. Fanless
5. Cheap!
6. mini ITX footprint.
Whilst the motherboards you list are technically very nice, they don't fit my needs, and offer features that I have no need for. One thing you may notice is the time from my initial ponderings to actually buying the motherboard. That was because I was looking around to find something that fit my specs. I did see several motherboards that fit most of the bill, but had features (such as DVI and HDMI, plus the associated cost) that were of no use when playing music.
This is, as I say, what I'm after, and everybody being different will want different things from their pc box.
Some of the motherboards you list will hit the spot for building a media PC, with built in 1080HD output and the like, and should be seriously considered by anybody looking to build a media centre PC. I do like the way that ASUS have thought about the probable end use of the products you have listed, and made them fanless, as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 16:14:06 GMT
Hi Will my take on the choice of motherboard was that it should be good enough for the job at hand. the fact that it's relatively inexpensive made it pretty appealing to me. i think that I've demonstrated that a relatively basic board and sound card is something that most people (even total newbee's like me) can achieve with out too much fuss. all that was needed then was some help from a friend which i had plenty of. for my part i only wanted a MUSIC PC and nothing more. i did think of including some more features that i would never use but what would be the point. OK transports i have owned and let go Rocsan Attesa the original MK1 space ship job. DPA and bigger bit which i still have and one of the Meridians. from memory and comparison with the DPA Wills PC sounds better than all of them and more so with high res files. it also betters my Marantz CD17 (reclocked) musical fidelity Xray and pioneer PD701 used as transports. nuff said and quite an achievement on Wills part. it ticks all of my boxes and the best thing is it sounds very good thats how i see DIY working the experienced helping the less experienced horses for courses Christian Take care
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Mar 31, 2011 18:28:20 GMT
Interesting post, Christian. When I was creating the specification for what I wanted in a motherboard, I came up with the following: 1. PCI slot - the majority of external soundcards are/were pci, especially the likes of the well-regarded juli@. More quality soundcards are becoming available, though, with pci-e slots 2. It could take 4Gb memory. 3. Power input - initially, I thought that having a 12V input to the motherboard was the best solution, but in the end that same motherboard will most probably use dc-dc convertors (think small SMPS in very simple terms), to get the other voltage that the motherboard requires. I've gone for the typical pc power socket, as that way, I can build up a linear PC PSU. Yes, there will still be (fewer?) dc-dc convertors on this motherboard, but at least I will have addressed that issue a bit. 4. Fanless 5. Cheap! 6. mini ITX footprint. Whilst the motherboards you list are technically very nice, they don't fit my needs, and offer features that I have no need for. One thing you may notice is the time from my initial ponderings to actually buying the motherboard. That was because I was looking around to find something that fit my specs. I did see several motherboards that fit most of the bill, but had features (such as DVI and HDMI, plus the associated cost) that were of no use when playing music. This is, as I say, what I'm after, and everybody being different will want different things from their pc box. Some of the motherboards you list will hit the spot for building a media PC, with built in 1080HD output and the like, and should be seriously considered by anybody looking to build a media centre PC. I do like the way that ASUS have thought about the probable end use of the products you have listed, and made them fanless, as well. horses for courses Christian Absolutely. Needs and solutions are different. For me a VGA connector isn't enough anymore. I like to use good (and big) TFT panels and those often need a digital interface for best quality. VGA is also outdated and major manufacturers have already decided to drop the interface in next few years. Although I know quite a few good motherboards and nettop PC's, there was just one thing that stands out: I've found nothing that would be perfect for all tasks. There's no "best" motherboard and no "perfect" nettop PC's. All those devices have some drawbacks (this also includes the Mac Mini... I know it exactly since I have four units from three product generations). I miss a FireWire port on the boards mentioned by me above. I know that soundcards with PCI-E are still rather seldom. Soundcards changed the bus connectors always slowly. That was also the case as ISA was dropped for PCI. The D945GSEJT would allow to build music PCs with very small enclosures. It's also rather cheap, has a 12VDC input and DVI. I can't source them at the moment though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2011 11:59:24 GMT
Hi Cristian that's an interesting looking board with what look like good specs. the max ram is listed @ 2GB which is lower than the 510 (4GB)but i can't see that making much of a difference. I'll look forward to seeing the project develop. take care
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Apr 9, 2011 20:12:02 GMT
Nice link, Christian, and quite apt for those of us using this d510 motherboard. I measured current draw a while back, with HDD, sound card, keyboard and mouse connected, whilst playing a hi-res file. Steady state was 2.4A, with a max of 3A, so that linear supply is spot on! Oh, and a very generous offer with that HP box, as Shaun said, if I hadn't already..... Actually, I made a mistake in the post above: I've ordered two MINWA S9125GS linear regulated PSU's. Those output only 2.5A at 12VDC, but 4A at 1.5, 3, 4.5 and 6VDC. That's not enough for the Mini-ITX boards (especially those with NVIDIA chipsets or the new AMD Zacate/Brazos boards). The link posted by me above pointed not to a specific products also. It pointed to the linear regulated PSU section of the MINWA website. Luckily, there are also linear regulated PSU's available from MINWA that output up to 5A at 12VDC. I guess you have seen them already. The current intel Atom mainboards would not be my choice for the ultimate low power, low noise music PC. The intel boards are of good quality though and they are cheap and available without problem. intel supports its motherboards also very well. BIOS update are released quite often and the boards run stable. The follwing motherboards offer better performance and/or more features. Most of them cost more than the intel D510 for example. My favourite is the AsRock A330ION, which offers good bang for the buck: www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=A330IONAsus has also a lot of interesting Atom and Zacate/Brazos motherboards. Some Zacate/Brazos boards are available in DTX and Micro-ATX form factors and offer more slots than the Mini-ITX boards: www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=AByqhT5xpkAgbr26&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=iIZKMXSj0jZKiebE&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=nF8GThJRwspPni6l&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=9BmKhMwWCwqyl1lz&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=JhJ03CRwku0lzT6B&templete=2www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=qSoDxhM5mAk1F607&templete=2I know that the boards above have mostly PCI-Express slots. Some soundcards still need 32-bit legacy PCI slots. At least the bigger Zacate/Brazos boards have 32-bit PCI slots. A good choice are IMO also the nettop PC's from AsRock: www.asrock.com/nettop/index.aspIf I shoud choose a motherboard of the current intel Atom product range, I'd go for this one: www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GSEJT/D945GSEJT-overview.htmThe current top of the line intel Atom motherboard looks rather obsolete in comparison (no DVI or HDMI ports, legacy ports that no one wants, no direct 12VDC power input, much profile of the on-board components): www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/db-D525MW/D525MW-overview.htmMy two MW S9125GS PSU's have arrived this weekend: It's a huge PSU compared to the MacMini and the UCA222. The PSU is also quite heavy, a true sign that there's a lot of iron inside. Sorry for the image quality. It's an image from my new ultra-cheap prepaid mobile. The packaging states "PWM stabilized". If found some information about that, but to be honest, I don't understand everything. It's a "Pulse Width Modulation Power Supply": www.bcae1.com/pwmps.htm
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2011 21:46:06 GMT
My little music PC is further back on this thread.
I'll be trying Javier's tips, much appreciated.
I have now given up using my TV as the monitor. Will suggested Remote Desktop a while back. I had built the MPC with Home Premium and unfortunately I had to buy an Anytime Upgrade to Professional to get it working. I have to say that using my little NC10 as the 'remote' is great. I think I can regard this project as finally finished!
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 16:20:57 GMT
My little music PC is further back on this thread. I'll be trying Javier's tips, much appreciated. I have now given up using my TV as the monitor. Will suggested Remote Desktop a while back. I had built the MPC with Home Premium and unfortunately I had to buy an Anytime Upgrade to Professional to get it working. I have to say that using my little NC10 as the 'remote' is great. I think I can regard this project as finally finished! Syd Hi Syd that sounds just great i was looking for a way to remote the Wilbur and the net book way looks fantastic. at the moment I'm using the state of the art long VGA cable and wireless mouse option. but a nice remote would be my first choice. have you checked out Alex's USB PSU yet? it's dead good if you music PC sounds anything like as good as Wills you must be chuffed with it. ;D i know that i am. take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 17:46:31 GMT
Hi Shaun
The Remote Desktop works great. The main reason for posting was to caution builders that Professional is needed on the music PC. The remote PC doesn't, mine has Win 7 Home Premium and it works very well.
I'm delighted with this music setup now. It runs Music PC (SSD, no HDD - Buffalo 32S and then either AK SCHA or modfied (new Sun discrete opamp replacements and new caps) MF A3.
Can't wait to hear the Class A HA!
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 17:53:42 GMT
Forgot to say, amazingly for me, I had already built a simpler but similar 5V supply for the JK HiFace and used it with the Corsair GT as well. Its 9V traffo - gifted bespoke PSU-JLH into a split USB lead. (Ground lead left intact)
Alex's is RR version, I should really have a go at an upgrade.
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2011 8:07:31 GMT
Forgot to say, amazingly for me, I had already built a simpler but similar 5V supply for the JK HiFace and used it with the Corsair GT as well. Its 9V traffo - gifted bespoke PSU-JLH into a split USB lead. (Ground lead left intact) Alex's is RR version, I should really have a go at an upgrade. Syd Hi Syd That sounds like a nice set up you have there i really must work on improving my DAC situation yes do try one when you have the time i was quite surprised at the difference it makes to the quality of my rips and playback. it also works very well with my external DVD burner. take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 9:48:12 GMT
Hi All I'm back after a spell with the boffins on the working with windows 7 thread. after some great advice from them and a little fiddling around I've ended up with the following setup. Windows 7-Foobar 2000-The Xonars own ASIO drivers-Fidelizer and it sounds just fantastic. so hats off to everyone who contributed on that thread. i did have a minor problem initially with the Asio drivers but just fiddled until it came right. I've also built one of Alex's USP PSU which improved the little USB drive i was using quite a bit and made a noticeable difference to the quality of my rips. I'm going to build another to run my flash drive from. well as they say '' I've come a long way baby''. I've chatted with some really cool people and it's been the best fun good work guys take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 11:39:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 12:22:57 GMT
Hi Chris It looks great but also looks very like the HA cases I bought. One was badly marked, the other fine. They do appear to be very soft aluminium, I think someone else on here remarked the same. I think plugging and unplugging USB would soon result in marks unless care was taken. that is assuming they are out of the same factory. In fact on the last advert I saw for the HA cases the vendor was asking people not to order if the marks would annoy them!
Syd
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 13:17:44 GMT
Hi Chris nice find and if not for sticky up sound card issues I'd use one. i have my eye on one of those hifi 2000 cases to match the one i used for the class A the big space hog is the sound card which sticks up quite a long way so will need a tall case or fined another way of mounting it. i was thinking of looking for a PCI wired connection to allow some flexibility mounting the sound card but as usual I'm not sure if such a thing exists (thwarted buy ignorance). take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 13:54:16 GMT
Hi Syd, I reckon you are correct, they do look familiar. I was thinking if say five of us were up for them they might do us a better deal? One could always use some protective plastic a la screen-slip stylee. Shaun, Yep, there sure is... right angle adaptorflat cable extender
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 15:00:30 GMT
Hi Chris Well i didn't like to ask as I'm sure people must be getting tired of my lame questions. thanks for the links they both look like the could be just the job and save me some cash on a more slender case. I'll think on it and see which way is going to be the best option. the Wilbur is sounding sooooo good he deserves a nice box. take care
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