elysion
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Post by elysion on May 15, 2010 18:54:16 GMT
Great post, Ian. Thanks. Maybe the Jecklin Disk is a good approach for binaural recordings. I have no experience with it, but I have read some information in the internet about it. wiki.faust3d.com/wiki//index.php?title=Joerg_JecklinIf you want to compare headphone and speaker optimized variants of the same recording, you should have a look at this DVD: "blue::elements / forsenses / a fascinating journey into nature & sound" It's a has 5.1 Dolby Digital EX, 6.1 DTS-ES and "headphone surround 3D" optimized audio tracks on it. They claim some of the mixes are up to 12.1 (?). This music-demo DVD was produced by Sony Music and is available as DVD-Video and Blueray-Disc. To my ears the quality of the tracks is quite amazing, but I have to admit that I'm almost only listening to the headphone optimized tracks. Does anyone know more about surround techniques for headphones? I was almost chating with Ian through PM's about this topic. Therefore it's best to start a thread about it, so everyone can participate in the discussion. What we already do know: – There're already a couple proven techniques around for surround sound with normal headphones. For example there's "Dolby Headphone" and "Dolby Virtual Speaker". But the technology is only used seldom in real products. www.dolby.com/index.htmlwww.dolby.com/consumer/understand/enhancement/index.html– There're some similar techniques to Dolby Headphone but we don't have exact information about them (for example the "headphone surround 3D" on the "forsenses" DVD mentioned above). – Meier Audio does use a "crossfeed" feature within his current product line. This technique should prevent the fatiguing in-head-localisation that is often a problem with headphones. SPL uses similar feature (also called crossfeed) with their Auditor and Phonitor headphones amplifierer. IIRC Nickchen has some experience with the SPL products. www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/Look for "crossfeed filter" on the Meier Audio page. The page is dynamic, I can't place direct links here. There's a DIY crossfeed filter from Meier Audio but they also include the technology in their current product line. www.spl.info/www.spl.info/en/hardware/headphone-amps/phonitor/product-description.html– The Jecklin Disk (see link above) is a good way to make "natural" stereo recordings. – The Sennheiser LUCAS for example had already the ability to prevent in head localization to some degree by using it's feature to alter your position in a virtual acoustic room. I own two LUCAS amps and I've used one of them for years (it was my first headphone amp). – There was also another approach from Sennheiser. They sold the "Sennheiser Surrounder" years ago. It's not a heaphone, it's more a set of shoulder mounted speakers. Recently I've found one in a swiss auction and I bought it. It looks awesome and I think it's more a collectors item than really useful. But it's still a unique approach that was never used again. The Surrounder was a commercial flop for Sennheiser and they stopped selling it. – There're also a increasing number of crap-o-phones intended for gaming that used more than one driver/speaker per ears. I'm in doubt the quality of these 'phones is good, but I didn't test them. Maybe I'm wrong. What we like to know: – We would like to know about already available surround sound for headphones (music/demos or whatever). – We would like to know more about the techniques itself and how we can enhance already existing (non-surround) sound with these techniques. I think this thread should be for the discussion of all 3D/surround techniques for headphones, for music/demos that already are using surround techniques and are available, for all techniques that do prevent in-head-localization and for the techniques used to record in surround (or at least "natural" stereo).
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 19:34:35 GMT
Personally, I think that there should be a future for some kind of 3D/surround efect in headphones.
After all, cinema seems to be going that way and for years now, all headphone listeners have done is put up with a sound that was designed for speakers, so we have had to make compromises.
I would have loved to have seen two versions of every album. One designed for speakers and a 'dummy head' recording for headphone listeners. However, with electronic music, that isn't easy so crossfeed is a kind of answer but to me, it's more of a compromise.
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Post by clausdk on May 15, 2010 19:39:40 GMT
I also got the senn surrounder, but it need to be fed from a pc to get the effect right, I think it is quite cool, but almost never use it..
The Philips AH1000 is more interesting, I also got that, as it does give a larger stage and the enclosed sound when the film is indoor, but it is not real surround, like the senns, it is also a great amp/DAC for normal music..
The problem to make surround in headphones is that you have 2 speakers and a very small room, so it can probably never be as good as speakers, in portraying things from behind..
Beyer dynamic also make one and it is expensive, but I have not heard it, so really can not comment on that, other than it exists..
I would love to try the Lukas amp with the seen surounder if the Lukasthing have "back speakers" ??
If I watch films with headphones I prefer the stereosound as the suround from my philips is emulated and the senns are to weird and not very comfortable to sit with.. I love watching films with headphones, there is so much more details than speakers can produce..
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 15, 2010 21:27:21 GMT
Claus, I've mentioned that I have two LUCAS amps... you can send me your details and I'll send you one of the amps. You can have the LUCAS for a while. I don't use them much anymore. One LUACS amp was often used for years and is certainly more than just "burned-in". The second LUCAS amp is almost in mint condition, because it was used only very seldom. Tell me what you'd like more. I'll test them before shipping because I haven't used them for a long time. I have also two M-Audio Revolution 7.1 PCI audio cards, but can't use them at the moment, because I need to refurbish an old PowerMac G4 2x1.42GHz as host system first. It's not my top-priority at the moment. The Revo 7.1 could easily drive the Surrounder as it has back-channels (beside a couple of other channels). Sennheiser sold the "DSP Pro" as amp for the Surrounder. And now it's getting really interesting: The DSP Pro is in fact a LUCAS amp sold under a different name. The only difference between them is a filter which comes together with the DSP Pro. Both stereo channels of the LUCAS are used for the Surrounder. The first channel is simply plugged in an used for left/right and center. The second channel is used for the back-channel. The filter is used between the second LUCAS stereo channel and the back-channel of the Surrounder. It does filter the center-information from the signal. Without the filter it doesn't work (and maybe it could be also dangerous for the back-channels). I only have the LUCAS manual as PDF, but I have the Surrounder manual as paper booklet. The use of the filter is clearly described in the Surrounder manual, but they're not very exactly regarding what they're filtering out and how they do it. Probably they've liked to sell the DSP Pro for a premium price while the only difference to the LUCAS was the name and the filter for the back-channels. If we find out what they did and how we can make a similar filter, then we could try the Surrounder in the way Sennheiser was intending for it. The LUCAS itself is a good match with the HD580 (they were sold a bundle), but IMO the HD650 sound even better with it. Moovies are the category that the LUCAS is covering the best. I think most of the surround enhancements for headphones depend on knowledge about "psycho acoustics". The LUCAS is depends entirely on this knowledge. The LUCAS got a lot of bad reviews and was a commercial flop like the Surrounder what ended up in selling them at a loss together with a HD580 in a bundle. IMHO the LUCAS is much better than the reviews, but you need a lot of time to find optimal settings for your ears. Of course it's not an amp for everything, his strength are moovies and it's works best with the Senn HD650/600/580 series. This series is overall not bad for watching moovies. The bloated bass of the HD650 comes in handy with some action moovies. I don't know if anyone has modded a LUCAS with better components. I guess it has got so poor response overall that no one has tried it. Maybe it would be a much better amp when using it with better stuff inside. There's not much information around about the beyer surround amps. I've seen a couple of reviews and the general conclusion was that the amp is very costly for what it does deliver. Perhaps it also optimized specifically for the beyer 'phones and does perform the best together with them. Here's a review about the beyer amp, but unfortunately it's in German: www.fairaudio.de/leserberichte/erfahrung-kopfhoerer-beyerdynamic-headzone-home-1.htmThe crossfeed filter that Meier Audio offers could be interesting, because it could be placed between the source and the headphone amp. The Meier Audio amps itself are not cheap. I'm in doubt I will buy one as long as I can get great amps from Neco for a bargain price and before the Euro totally crashes (enabling me to buy a Meier Audio amp at a bargain price for a very low amount of Swiss Francs). Most likely I'd buy Neco amps even then...
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Post by clausdk on May 15, 2010 21:40:13 GMT
if they do not work with the surounder without the filter it is not that interesting, the fun would be hearing it as it was meant to be.. It needs the back speakers, to be good on a normal pc it sounds OK.. If it does have a channel for the backspeakers it would be great, I have maybe misread your post I seem to recall that the DSP/lukasthing was sold toogether with the surounder, am I wrong here ?? I do think that a senn surounder belongs in any serious headfi collection That is why I got mine, at 75 € quite cheap, I almost bougth a second one ½ a year ago..
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Post by clausdk on May 15, 2010 21:42:58 GMT
Ohhh and german is no problem to read..
The reviewer is not fair to the Philips, I have the old version with cable only and comparing a wireless to a DT880 is no real match, but with the cable the Philips HP1000 is very close to the DT880 in SQ, but with a better signature for movie and are much more comfortale.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on May 15, 2010 22:00:54 GMT
The second stereo output of the LUCAS is used for the back-channels. But you need the appropriate filter... I don't have the filter because my LUCAS amps were sold with HD580 bundles.
I've bought my Surrounder cheap this spring for about 50CHF (including postage).
The "DSP" that Sennheiser sold as addition to the Surrounder was the "DSP Pro" which is a LUCAS amp that does come with the needed filter for the second stereo output. The filter was the normal way to use the LUCAS/DSP-Pro together with the Surrounder.
BTW: Be warned that you'll end up with a lot of cable mess if you're really setting up the LUCAS together with the Surrounder. The Surrounder itself looks awesome and comfort is better that you'd think on the first view, but with all those cables it doesn't look sexy anymore...
The Surrounder is more like a cool gadget than a serious listening tool. The LUCAS in opposite is much more versatile because it's possible to use it with standard headphones too. Since it has two equal stereo outputs (mini-jacks) it's able to drive two headphones at once (perfect for listening with you partner or a friend). Acoustic settings and loudness can be individually changed for both channels (including the ear-type setting). I does remember the settings if put the amp off, even if you disconnect the power supply.
The most annoying thing with the LUCAS is the enormous cable clutter this little devices produces. There's a combo input cable for audio signal and power from a wallwart which is connected permanently to the combo cable. As long as you don't move around the amp everyday this is not a big problem though.
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Post by elysion on Jun 27, 2010 3:28:40 GMT
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Post by elysion on Jun 28, 2010 21:57:37 GMT
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 19:25:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 20:56:21 GMT
Meier doesn't sell the Crossfeeds any more unfortunately. They were excellent little units. I had one, modified by a local guy for me and it was superb. Then I had it nicked (as usual) while out working for a few weeks. You can't trust the staff!!!!
Mike made me a lovely little mini unit and sent it to me for my birthday. Crossfeeds can be great if they're not too hefty.
These surround systems for headphones must e phase based I suspect.
I really wish that the recording companies embraced dummy head recordings and sold two versions of CD's. I know that there would be cost issues but then again, we could always be given the choice of buying one or the other, or even a bumper pack with both!!
Especially now we are starting to see 3d films. It would give music sales a nice boot up the jacksy if they were released.
I love dummy head recordings. I even prefer them to speakers!!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jun 30, 2010 21:23:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 21:29:01 GMT
Oh yeah .....
I remember you mentioned him once before Mike.
Sitting in your front room with your eyes closed listening to birds all around. That has to be a bit spooky!!
If you get a well done music CD, it's great to listen to. Funnily enough on some recordings, not as obvious but it definitely opens a headphone up and you're less critical of tone. Your brain seems to hook moreso onto the image.
Shame it's not more popular.
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Post by elysion on Jun 30, 2010 23:46:45 GMT
The recordings from Walter Tilgner seem to be very interesting. I'm thinking about getting some of them. Perhaps this has to wait since ordering rare CDs isn't the cheapest thing. BTW: I have to visit a good CD/DVD store in Lucerne soon. I know they are very good with rare recordings.
Those Walther Tilgner recordings are IMO something like natural Ambient sound. I like the "sound" of rain and thunderstorms for example.
It's too bad that Meier Audio doesn't make the standalone crossfeed filter anymore. Meier Audio has all information about the crossfeed filter online that is needed for a DIY crossfeed filter.
Every couple of months I see Jecklin Disks for sale in local Swiss auctions. Maybe I should get one if it's cheap enough. The dummy heads on the Walther Tilgner website look better though.
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Post by elysion on Jul 10, 2010 12:00:30 GMT
"3D soundfield" from "Naturspace Holographic Audio" www.naturespace.com/index.phpThere's also an iOS app from them. The app is free, but I'm still not sure if it's only a front-end for buying their sound. Probably it's best to try it. Nice: They have a downloadable demo in AAC format. It's not bad... Most of their sound is also available in the iTunes store.
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Post by elysion on Jul 16, 2010 18:02:34 GMT
I have started a thread about I-Doser binaural recordings. Please have a look there for more information.
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Post by elysion on Jul 17, 2010 10:50:33 GMT
Darwin Chamber – 3D Haunted House
(although the YouTube clips states something about "i-Doser" this track is from Darwin Chamber and has NO relationship to the i-Doser tracks AFAIK)
I bought this track from the iTunes store and it's a much better quality than the YouTube video. But you still hear some "3D" effect with the YouTube video.
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Post by elysion on Jul 28, 2010 2:29:19 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 28, 2010 9:55:49 GMT
Christian..... I have heard a few of Jim's full length binaural recordings and they are stunning! I don't know where he is now, all his websites have disappeared but I got this from the wayback machine.... From wayback machine Well worth getting in touch with Jim... he has really fantastic recordings, ask him for the bonfire night one.... incredible!
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 28, 2010 10:03:54 GMT
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jul 28, 2010 10:40:55 GMT
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Post by elysion on Jul 28, 2010 16:27:24 GMT
Many thanks for the great links, Mike. A lot of stuff there that deserves a closer look. I'm more and more convinced that binaural recordings are the way to go for 3D/surround sound with headphones. Even artificial sound that is completely produced electronically should be made similar to binaural recordings. I've read the DIY dummy head tutorial yesterday. Big far the greatest problem is to find the right size/form for the head/ears and not every binaural recordings works for everyone's ears. Some of the really good binaural tracks that I have from the iTunes store (like the Naturalspace Holographic Audio recordings) seem to be rather universal regarding the ear type. Proabably a "mission impossible" to satisfy every ear on the planet, but I'm already happy if it works for most people. IMHO good binaural recordings are better than most "surround" stuff for speaker setups and they provide the most natural way of listening (which is always "binaural" in the end). I like the slogan "headphones are required"...
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Post by Defecitve Audio Component on Aug 3, 2010 21:11:01 GMT
Some say that surround isn't ideal for speakers. Possibly, an ambiophonic speaker setup can sound even more like the real thing. Haven't heard that yet though as I've just gotten hold of an ancient digital ambiophonics acoustics processor.
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Post by elysion on Aug 5, 2010 20:16:43 GMT
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Post by elysion on Aug 8, 2010 1:00:10 GMT
Today, I have found some headphone related settings in the VLC media player. The VLC media player is available for a couple of operating systems, including Linux, OSX, Windows etc. I'm still using version 1.0.5 with OSX, the 1.1.x versions have still a lot of bugs. I tested 1.1.2 yesterday and I had to downgrade to 1.0.5 afterwards. Results with your OS/configuration may vary. Unfortunately, the pics are in German (since my OSX is in German VLC displays his user interface also in German). I hope you will find the settings in your language anyway. VLC has an option for enabling a "headphone surround effect". I can't say if the translation of the German user interface is really corresponding to the English user interface, in fact I think the translation of the original English user interface to German was not perfect. This is maybe a explanation why two of the possible options can't be enabled together (the "Kopfhörer Surround Effekt" in the basic audio options and the "Kopfhörereffekt für virtuelles räumliches Klangbild" in the detailed audio settings), although the German describtion is almost the same. Probably one of the settings is something like "Dolby Headphone" while the other setting is more exactly a crossfeed filter ("headphone_channel_mixer" => see the last screenshot here). At the moment, I can't say much about how those options show really a benefit (and what benefit). It will need some testing to say more about it. I wouldn't be suprised it those features are still not implemented properly, since VLC is under construction permanently. They release quite often new versions.
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