rickcr42
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Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 25, 2007 20:05:16 GMT
you could also consider a "law faking" resistor to turn that linear resistance into more of a log taper saving both the cost and hassle of replacing the pot entirely P.S. : Now you are getting a glimpse into why so many move to triodes as their experience/taste matures Mike.Solid state may get the specs right and may at times have DEEPER bass and a more EXTENDED top end but the parts in the middle where the music actually lives (as opposed to spec sheets that go from DC to RF frequencies ) will never be as organic souding as a good valve amp
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 25, 2007 21:36:38 GMT
This is my first tube amp, Rick, and I love it. PS: Good to have you back.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 25, 2007 21:46:52 GMT
Cool No turning back now unfortuneately (fortunately ? ).Solid state will never be the same and will be relegated to portable duty when there is a choice being a mostly cold and sterile portrayal of what should be a living breathing emotional animal (music) in comparison.Getting a taste of instruments in "space" with air and being fleshed out is very addictive thanks
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 25, 2007 22:34:05 GMT
Thanks, Mike, for the valuable comments on the 336i and for the PM. Your conclusions are very fair and your "tweaks" very valid. It certainly seems to reflect other comments voiced here and elsewhere - namely, the problems with hum encountered when tube rolling. Fortunately, I haven't experienced hum when tube rolling - yet!!! But there are others who have, and with your permission I'll tell them about the cathode bypass caps. The cathode bypass caps are common knowledge Fergus, I just copied what Fitz over at Head-Fi did see here if I hadn't come across Fitz's post I'd have been none the wiser. It all mounts up and I was just mentioning that the initial "start up cost" is reasonable but factor in an other 100% to the cost if you're going to be doing a fair bit of rolling. A 100K ALPS RK27 (dual log) will give you a much broader range on the volco and it should fit, I see Fitz managed to get one into his 336i but with a name like Fitz of course it'll fit If all you are ever going to use are high impedance 'phones then the 33uF SCR will be adequate (just) but even better with slightly more capacitance. I removed the 30uF of film cap from mine and replaced with two non polar 220uF electrolytics and the disadvantages of electrolytic far outweighed the advantages of film caps, just more body and depth to the sound with them in place and listening through the Senns (as well as extremely noticeable improvement with low impedance 'phones) Not sure about the PSU caps being improved but it certainly would do no harm fitting larger caps here. I don't know what's in the 332 but on board the 336i are 3 x 200V 1000uF..... I must admit I have found bypassing them with 400V 1uF film caps to bring about a touch more panache to the overall sound and the mills / reidon non inductive resistors instead of the stock wirewound jobs also bring about a subtle but notable improvement especially in the lower registers. How warm to the touch does yours get Fergus? Mine starts getting very warm after about the 2 hour mark... technically this doesn't concern me at all but it's like a mini heater sitting next to me (I do all my headphone listening at my desktop with the amps about 12 inches to the right of me) and one thing I detest is heat whether it be from radiators, hot closed backed headphones, computers or amps... if I have to be surrounded by equipment I'd rather it runs cool, especially in the summer. As much as I love the sound of the 336i (and I genuinely class it as top notch) I'll be selling mine purely on power consumption / heat generating reasons..... no way can I sit next to a low bake oven during the summer months, it's bad enough with the computer blowing out hot air as it is. Of course not everbody listens to headphones at a desktop surrounded by lots of equipment so the odd bit of heat may not be a problem for them. I'll be selling with the mods, with the stock valves and will also include an unused / boxed GE 6080, a couple of 1984 vintage boxed / unused 6H8C Russians and a brand new / boxed 6SN7EH Electro Harmonix.... PM me if interested, UK only.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 25, 2007 23:13:10 GMT
Called a "Headphone Extension" cable ;D
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 25, 2007 23:31:30 GMT
hehe ;D My last electricity bill was £530 for the quarter (that's $1100 a quarter) heat = minus (-) pounds (GBP) from my wallet I'm not going to entertain these robbing bastards and, if necessary, will convert to solar power. As good as the Valve amp is it can fuNk off out the door, it's way too costly to run. One good reason to produce efficient, good sounding amps Rick....... "running costs" With the 336i you've got to factor in (over and above the initial bargain price) replacement valves and running costs.... should any part ever fail your repair bill will be HUGE due to the dense p2p wiring (ie: time consuming to find the fault and time consuming to strip the amp down and repair) that is if you can find someone who can actually repair it...... There's a LOT to be said for SS Rick and don't believe the hype man, valve amps don't sound any better ..... just a bit more added distortion which soon becomes tired when listening through headphones. I'm happy with my cool running, super sounding SS gear which will probably last forever, valves were superceded by transistors for a reason mate..... reliability, cheaper to run. consistency, efficiency being a few of the reasons.... I must send you a decent SS headamp over the pond, you've obviously never heard a good un
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 26, 2007 0:33:50 GMT
The 332 gets warm, but not unusually so - although I've noticed I haven't been using the central heating as much lately. It heats up around the back, where those large resistors are situated. It also heats up round the front, especially on the left hand side, where those large green cylinders are placed: I suspect they may be military spec film caps of some kind. I have a number of Russian PIOs and they look very similiar. There are three large PSU caps in the 332, as there is with the 336. If they are the same values (1000uF/200v) then I suppose PANASONIC FCs and FMs are out. What make of cap would have the low ESR of the PANASONICs and the 105 degree heat parameters? Those 130 degree caps by SAMWHRA would be perfect, but values are all wrong. Electricity charges, don't get me started!!! Already paying well over the odds, but now there are going to charge us 100 million smackers for enviromentally improving their polluting power stations. F**king extortionists, should be arrested and publicly flogged - preferably by one of their long suffering customers.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 26, 2007 1:10:45 GMT
Mike goes "green" What next ? Class-D ? ;D
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xerxes
Been here a while!
Posts: 1,115
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Post by xerxes on Feb 26, 2007 1:37:52 GMT
Steeeeeeerewth! My last bill was £380, so I phoned the electicity suppliers and pointed out that I hadn't been running an aluminium smelting plant for a month. Turns out they had reversed a couple of numbers on the meter reading and the reading before that was an over estimation. After correction the bill was £29, much better. Without the over estimations and screw ups its usually around £80. What on earth are you doing to get through £530 a qarter? I reckon it's about time you ran around the house and replaced all those incandescent bulbs with low energy ones.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 26, 2007 15:22:06 GMT
Sorry man, that should have read £330. It's quite a long house with plenty of lights both internally and externally and has 3 types of heating, oil fired central heating / open fire in the old 1800's part and bloody storage heating / electric fire in both the other ends of the joint. Cooker is electric as there's no gas here, the showers are electric.... it's, altogether a bit of a pig's ear if truth be told and the previous owners have put no thought into the place at all.... instead of those crappy storage heaters they really should have extended the central heating system into the two extensions either end (one 1960's one 1990s) so over and above the electric there's also the cost of filling the 1100 litre oil tank (about £260 a fill) and should I use the open fire there's also the cost of coal though I've been using wood from trees in the garden I've logged. I think the biggest hogs are the showers and the outside lighting which springs into action everytime a bloomin' rabbit or a pheasant walks past, I'll be turning that off pretty soon. A very good reason to sell up and buy a tiny 1 bedroom cottage with solar power throughout or maybe a windmill ;D
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 26, 2007 15:26:05 GMT
Mike goes "green" What next ? Class-D ? ;D Hehe, I love winding you up man Go green? As much chance of that as me turning into a lesbian. I must economise a little bit though.... thankfully summer will soon be here so I can take cold showers and just eat salad.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 26, 2007 22:46:50 GMT
On second thoughts.... that won't be happening either
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 27, 2007 0:11:58 GMT
...or a nice little hole in the ground somewhere.DIRT is a great insulator (ask any slob ) if below deck.you could even call it a "Hobbit Hole" so you can still con the odd female back to the cave for a little bit of indoor sports activity ;D BTW Mike-females make for a great source of heat in the colder months but you gotta toss them come spring or you go friggin' nuts from all that time on lock down
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 27, 2007 0:16:05 GMT
Not hard dude.I am wound so tight even without a promt if i ever "spring" from the tension built up will likely fly right out the fkn window and down the block before running out of gas now THAT would be interesting been watching too many sheep standing in the rain munching grass and have an urge to emulate the locals ? ;D
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 27, 2007 0:31:15 GMT
I'd be happy with this amp if I could get all the valves to perform the same way as the stock 6N8P. The 6N8P are DEADLY silent but all of the 6SN7 / 6H8C I have tried all exhibit a low level hum which I'm finding VERY annoying. The worst offenders are the Electro Harmonix 6SN7 (both standard and gold pin) they just hum like mad... the russian 6H8C aren't too bad but they still hum ever so slightly, I've got 8 pairs of the 6H8C and they all hum in this amp so I'm pretty convinced it's not a dodgy valve thing. Don't get me wrong, the hum is barely audible and quite a few people may not even realise it's there but I do and keep homing in on it. The cathode bypass caps helped to tone it down a notch but not enough to make it inaudible. Funny, I just happened across a thread at Goat Fi and this guy also mentions certain 6SN7's hum....... "Tubes that did not work out..... Cbs/hytron 6sn7gt-hum never went away,sent back to dealer. Nos Rca 6as7g Was very microphonic, went pop about four hours into use.Dead. Sent back to dealer.Other owners use them with no problem Nos Rca 6sn7gt- some hum. But 3 bucks and I cant complain.Great sounding tube.I am going to break it in for about 24 hours and see if it changes. Used Delco 6sn7gt-Bad tube real bad hum.Threw away
Used Sylvania 6sn7wgt-bad hum one channel,bad tube. But sounds good on the amp if you can find a good one. Used Rca 6sn7gtb-worn out,junk.Cant suggest because I dont have a good one. New Electro- harmonix 6sn7-do not buy,nobody has got these to work."There's a LOT to be said for opamps Rick!! A fckin 6SN7 should be a 6SN7 PERIOD like an OPA627 is an OPA627 they shouldn't all exhibit different properties and be so cranky in operation..... reminds me of the 1970's when all the TV sets used to require constant maintenance and tweaking..... nope, sorry, not going back to those days I prefer the reliability / consistency of solid state.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 27, 2007 0:52:33 GMT
Weird Mikey.That is about all I use these days refusing to pay the crazy prices NOS is getting lately and hum is not a thing I suffer which if there,trust me I would hear being that I use 96dB/W/SPL speakers and Grado cans (also VERY efficient).I can actually pull (and have done so) the cathode caps and STILL am hum free but at a cost of a double "Pi" filter (CLCRC) which gobbles up both chassis space and loot.Maybe all these folks having problems need to stay away from cheap amps from China where everything is crammed into a chassis leaving zero usable space for bettering the PSU or are doing piss poor DIY layouts ? Not the tube man but the method yeah like any idiot can get one to work in even the most piss poor designs with a power supply that flat out sucks due to the high PSRR.Imagine if those same "designers" had to BUILD an Op-amp ? I'm thinking if a single ended tube stage is a bitch then the extra stages will end up a damn nightmare Single ended means the power supply is PARAMOUNT to the design not an afterthought to just get a voltage to the devices because it is IN SYSTEM at all times so audible as such...especailly the final cap in the power feed which should be of the highest quality in the string of caps (motor run or other film cap )
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 27, 2007 1:01:07 GMT
an OPA627 IS and OPA627 because it is made exactly like every other OPA627 by the same company.If they farmed out the die to second sourcing and if they use a different process you would have variable sonics just like you do with sourcing vacuum tubes from various manufacturing plants Yup.But at least you COULD tweak/repair/slap it in the side them ! now you just throw the whole ball of wax in the trash and buy new because they are not repairable.Disposable society that pitches a bitch about the amount of PBs leaching from the electronics yet has no problem with increasing the AMOUNT of garbage that when added up defeats any lead free build orders by the sheer tonnage of materials going into the ground. opamps have thousands of devices on a substrate where all you need to do is plug it in to an input,an output and a power source and you have a functioning device because the actual CIRCUIT is all enclosed in the tiny plastic "box" and you wonder why so many have trouble with tube gear when that is where their experience is ? ;D
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 27, 2007 22:56:12 GMT
Don't get me wrong here Rick, I'm really enjoying the sound of the amp but am more homing in on the ever so slight hum than I am spending time listening to the music. I'm used to an absolutely INKY black silence and the slightest background noise (even if it's barely audible) has always niggled me to the degree I have to get rid of it at all costs rather than just turn the voulume up and enjoy the music! The moment you crank the volco from zero to music there's no hint of hum, even when listening to the quietest passages, It wasn't like that from stock with the 6SN7, they were as hummy as hell through the range. The cathode bypass caps have certainly tamed them down to almost silent but almost isn't good enough for me! When I actually do turn the volco up and start listening to the music it really really is exceptionally good! I still can't understand why the Electro harmonix 6SN7 should be the hummiest out of them all with the stock Chinese valve being DEAD silent.... The best sounding out of the lot I've tried are the Russian 6H8C with GE6080 in the rear (fortunately I've got loads of the 6H8C and only two of the Electro Harmonix) It's a kinda "special reserve" connoisseur type listen with the 6H8C on board.... more a sip of warm cognac in a large glass rather than a pint of ale kind of experience.... very pleasant indeed. The innards are a bit of a pig's ear at the moment..... I've been trying out different cathode bypass caps and the best sounding so far are the Nichicon 220uF 100V VP series (NON polar) I'm also using these as the coupling caps with a 250V 2.2uF EVOX rifa Polypropylene in parallel which "definitely" make the sonic character a little bit smoother (right or wrong it sounds better with 220uF bypassed with 2.2uF polyprops, for SURE) As I say, it's a bit of a pig's ear under the hood and will be tidied up as soon as I find a combination I'm happy with: 220uF 100V NON polar cathode resistor bypass caps + 2 x 220uF 100V Non Polar coupling caps. I just hope the 100V non polars will be good in this position, there's a pretty constant 79V across them so fingers crossed 100V will be fine. I also fitted an X2 rated cap (100nF) across live and neutral in the hope it would help a bit with the (almost inaudible) hum: Now my most zany idea to date, the resistors connected to the power caps were measuiring quite warm at the capacitor terminals and I freak out at the idea of a precious electrolytic becomming warm so I decided to shunt some of that heat away from them into some 1uF 400V film caps.... a totally meaningless exercise but it seemed to make sense at the time ;D As it happens, the 1uF film caps seem to have tightened the bass up a bit.... may be the case, may be I'm imagining it. Fortunately nothing has gone BANG! (yet) The two 2.2uF EVOX polyprops that are in parallel with the 220uF non polar coupling caps: The pig's ear: I don't know if it's the done thing or not (and I don't care) but I'm going to try bypassing the cathode resistor bypass cap (the 220uF Non polar) with a 2.2uF EVOX polypropylene bypass cap.... made a noticeable improvement when I bypassed the 220uF coupling cap with 2u2 polyporop so who'se to say it won't have the same effect on the cathode bypass cap? This is where your own ears come into play and the rule book goes out the window.... tune to personal preference and to hell with what Walt Jung has to say on the matter I'm actually loving tuning this Rick and it will be staying outside in the workshop and take the place of my resident Chiarra..... I mean, it's cold out there... this is a warm amp.... makes perfect sense, it can double up as a mini heater as well as provide me with musical pleasure when I'm out there working Daft to sell it what with all these spare 6H8C on tap.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 27, 2007 23:54:51 GMT
so exactly what is the heater supply layout mike ? If you are getting hum my bet is that is the area to concentrate on.In my EH driven 6SN7 preamp I have coming off a full wave bridge resctifier (snubbered of course ) series 0.22 5 watts resistor,shunt to ground 10,000 uf 16 v electrolytic,series 0.47 5watt resistor,shunt to ground 10,000 uf 16 v electrolytic then tightly twisted pair wires to the heaters ZERO HUM !
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 27, 2007 23:59:25 GMT
so exactly what is the heater supply layout mike ? If you are getting hum my bet is that is the area to concentrate on.In my EH driven 6SN7 preamp I have coming off a full wave bridge resctifier (snubbered of course ) series 0.22 5 watts resistor,shunt to ground 10,000 uf 16 v electrolytic,series 0.47 5watt resistor,shunt to ground 10,000 uf 16 v electrolytic then tightly twisted pair wires to the heaters ZERO HUM ! Maybe so but where to park such cap estate in such a small parking space.... this is the problem.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 28, 2007 0:33:01 GMT
The nichicons are not that bad in the 16 VDC size and you can back the resistors off to 5 watters in a pinch that if you go with a metallized ceramic with a high overload margin will be smaller than the typical monkey coffin resistors
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 28, 2007 22:49:17 GMT
Just removed those 100V 220uF non polars (the cathode resistor bypass) and gone with a more sensible 35V 220uF bog standard ELNA type.... much better.... don't know what I was thinking fitting 100V rated caps here.... much tighter bass with the 35V rated 220uF's.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
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Post by rickcr42 on Mar 1, 2007 1:34:04 GMT
Common mistake when dealing with high voltage amps.you get so caught up in the safety margins (peak voltages) sometimes you get a little wonky and forget the part of the topology you are aimed at so overvalued caps are seen often in the cathode position where usually the max you could need is 25-35 volts.
the other "mistake" I see a lot,especially from DIYers used to doing op-amp circuits is undervaluing the output cap voltage rating which IS a high voltage position
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Post by PinkFloyd on Mar 6, 2007 23:26:56 GMT
Just thought I'd pop in and let you know how I'm getting on with this amp..... it's been at my side playing music since it arrived and I've really grown to like it, I'm listening to Pink Floyd - The Wall at the moment (haven't listened to it for quite some time) and the midrange presentation is just fantastic... I can't remember this much going on in the mix before, instruments to the left of you, to the right of you, behind you, in front of you...... I've been having a bit of a mid life crisis of late and whether the fact I cried when "Don't leave me now" kicked in was down to me feeling emotional or just the sheer "presentation" through the Darkvoice.... I don't know but I'm certainly deeply engrossed in the music and the meaning of the music...... "ooooooooooh babe!" First time in ages I've played my air guitar....... "don't think I need anything at all!"
Goodbye cruel world I'm leaving you today......... fckin' awesome!
EDIT: And the worms ate into his brain.
Playing at 12 o' clock position (LOUD!!):
Hey you, out there in the cold Getting lonely, getting old Can you feel me? Hey you, standing in the aisles With itchy feet and fading smiles Can you feel me? Hey you, dont help them to bury the light Dont give in without a fight.
Hey you, out there on your own Sitting naked by the phone Would you touch me? Hey you, with you ear against the wall Waiting for someone to call out Would you touch me? Hey you, would you help me to carry the stone? Open your heart, Im coming home.
But it was only fantasy. The wall was too high, As you can see. No matter how he tried, He could not break free. And the worms ate into his brain.
Hey you, standing in the road Always doing what youre told, Can you help me? Hey you, out there beyond the wall, Breaking bottles in the hall, Can you help me? Hey you, dont tell me theres no hope at all Together we stand, divided we fall.
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Mar 7, 2007 0:02:38 GMT
Good to see you enjoying the 336i, Mike.
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