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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 30, 2007 0:59:47 GMT
Not put off by the decidedly "spurious" AMPRO exercise I've got a DarkVoice 336i on its way over from China for no particular reason other than I have a basket load of brand new GE6080 and a few dozen 6SN7 that need using.
ETA is 5 days, I'll be back.
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hydrocity
<100
Official Funky Cat status
Funky Cat Maybe
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Post by hydrocity on Jan 30, 2007 17:24:43 GMT
oh man im lookin foward.. been wanting one of em..
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Fergus
100+
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Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Jan 30, 2007 19:12:28 GMT
Good luck with this one, Mike. Also good to see you've got some replacement valves for your 336i. From experience, and from what I've read, the DARKVOICE amps seem to respond very well to better quality tubes. Are you getting it from Jasmine Chine's hifi emporium?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 30, 2007 20:03:48 GMT
Good luck with this one, Mike. Also good to see you've got some replacement valves for your 336i. From experience, and from what I've read, the DARKVOICE amps seem to respond very well to better quality tubes. Seemed to make sense going with an amp that actually uses valves I already have and the 336i amp fits the bill nicely Yes I am and what a really nice chap he is... full of communication, excellent
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Fergus
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Post by Fergus on Jan 30, 2007 21:15:14 GMT
It'll be interesting to see how the 336i sounds with the DR-150s? The consensus seems to be that DARKVOICE amps are a better match for higher impedance headphones. But so far the DR-150s, unlike the GRADOs, sound great with almost anything.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Jan 31, 2007 22:16:52 GMT
It'll be interesting to see how the 336i sounds with the DR-150s? And the HD-600, K-501, SR-225, ERGO model 2, HD-414 etc. etc. Great, considering most of my old favourites fit into the high impedance category. Have you got a pair of DR-150 Fergus? I just cannot believe some people class them as bright, I haven't heard a hint of brightness with them and the longer they're playing away the more velvety they are becomming. Did your Darkvoice arrive in a wooden crate or just in a cardboard box? Mike.
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Fergus
100+
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Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 1, 2007 16:05:16 GMT
Haven't got a pair of the DR-150s - yet!!! But I can see myself ordering a pair in the future. I mean, 60 quid, you can't lose. No, my 332 arrived in a cardboard box, and a very dented cardboard box at that. But inside it was well protected with a tightly fitting foam enclosure.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 1, 2007 22:26:00 GMT
Haven't got a pair of the DR-150s - yet!!! But I can see myself ordering a pair in the future. I mean, 60 quid, you can't lose. You can lose sixty quid if they sound like crap. Fortunately, they don't and £60 very well spent IMO... an absolute best buy without doubt. Mine's just landed at Heathrow Airport according to the tracking information... if it's going to get a few dents you can be sure it'll happen in this cack handed country we call "Great Britain" even though they'll swear blind it "must have happened in China Guv'nor"
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
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Post by Fergus on Feb 2, 2007 0:10:31 GMT
My 332 arrived in a rather clapped out Ford Transit, in the arms of a rather scruffy looking teenager. But, hey, it arrived safely and that's all that matters. The countdown begins for 336 day.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 2, 2007 22:52:33 GMT
My 332 arrived in a rather clapped out Ford Transit, in the arms of a rather scruffy looking teenager. But, hey, it arrived safely and that's all that matters. The countdown begins for 336 day. Still seems to be at heathrow airport according to the tracking details. I sincerely hope it will "fly" up to Scotland and not make the 800 mile journey in a clapped out Ford transit with a scruffy teenager behind the wheel A pilot in a suit handing the package over to a well dressed courier in a brand new (washed) van is what's expected here and I expect the courier to address me as "Sir" when he arrives. I also expect him (or her) to smile and wish me a "very nice day" at the same time curtsying and thanking me for choosing their courier service
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xerxes
Been here a while!
Posts: 1,115
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Post by xerxes on Feb 3, 2007 14:41:11 GMT
Yeah right. More like "'ere ya go mate, sign and print 'ere".
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Fergus
100+
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Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 3, 2007 20:10:23 GMT
Yeah, I thought the sevice would be like that too - but then I woke up. No, just a surly adolescent, whose balls have just dropped, holding your precious package under his amp, a dog-eared document held out for you to sign, and mumbling something indecipherable under his breath. Before you know it, he's skulked back to his clapped-out transit and, in a cloud of poisonous diesel fumes, he's gone.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 7, 2007 21:01:52 GMT
She arrived this afternoon in a very fancy looking van (Highland Parcels service) the driver was pretty clean looking too First impressions, the build quality is nothing short of superb... DarkVoice is obviously consistent with their workmanship the point to point wiring is simply first class. The sound quality isn't doing a lot for me just yet (a couple of hours in) sounding slightly ploddy and syrupy but I'm pretty sure that has a lot to do with the 3 x 10uF (30uF) polyester output coupling caps.... why oh why fit only 30uF here and why three caps per channel? I'd much rather shove in a single 1000uF non polar electrolytic in each channel, certainly preferable to the current setup which will be all but useless with low impedance 'phones. I've also got a few valves to play around with but will let the stock valves burn in for a few days before fully evaluating the sound. Build quality is first class (I mentioned that already!) and I'm sure there's plenty of scope for tweaking this amp. A few pics of the guts will follow but will give it a couple of days before tweaking
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 7, 2007 21:31:17 GMT
Good to see she's arrived, Mike. I was getting worried. I must say, the first thing that impressed me about DARKVOICE was the build - simply first-class. Heavy too. The second thing I did with my 332 was to almost drop it. They also take an age to burn in. They recommend about 50 hours, but with me it was much longer. The stock tubes too are not up to much. Replace them and see what happens (the RCAs 5654s I put in today are simply stunning). There's great potential for modding, and there's a wealth of info on the web. It'll be interesting to see what you do with it.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 8, 2007 0:17:09 GMT
Good to see she's arrived, Mike. I was getting worried. Me too..... still "10" days all the way from China isn't too bad and the package arrived without so much as a crease on it. If this had been built in the UK, to these high standards of workmanship ( especially the internals) it would A: be a miracle and B: come with a very hefty price tag attached. We're talking "£135" here, let's not forget that, absolutely astounding value for money when you look at some of the homegrown gear at 10 times the price. There's no doubt about it, you get a lot of component for your money. So far (6 hours in) it's not doing a lot for me "sonically", nowhere near as ballsy as the Ampro (when it was working) but I definitely do have a mental block going on and keep thinking it can't possibly sound good with those three 10uF coupling caps per channel.... as soon as they're whipped out things may get better. So far, with stock valves, it's a bit of a disappointment (sonically) with a definite "hash" to the sound where I normally expect to find clarity and movement... there's bass, there's midrange and there's treble but there's also hash which is muddying the detail and slightly mashing my favourite tracks into syrupy goo. This is not a bad thing and it's way too early to reach a conclusion... I've experienced this with many amps only to find the next day they sound totally different. The 336i sounds great at high volume for a few seconds but that's not how I normally listen to music... it can drive HD-600 to mind blowing levels though..... I find that amps which initially sound great at high volco levels soon turn out to be fatiguing when you get them home and listen long term. The volume control (potentiometer) is another thing I can't live with (as well as the 30uF output caps ). It is linear law and goes from nothing to LOUD in 1/8th of a turn.... there's no reason for a linear pot to be employed here unless it's a psychological tactic to make newbees think "wow!! I can only listen up to the 9 o' clock setting, this is one POWERFUL amp!!" A log pot would be soooo much more comfortable in operation. Not so much what I'll do with it, more a case of subtracting here. The linear pot goes for starters as do the six 10uF output caps.... they're a joke unless you listen solely to >300ohm headphones and, even then, I'd prefer the 30ohm to be in one package and not 3 per channel. As I type this I've rolled in some GE6080 in place of the coke bottles that came with the amp.... I do believe it sounds marginally better...... I'm certainly not going to spend a lot of money ordering up every possible combination of valve to roll into the 336i but will see how she responds to bigger uF coupling caps.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 9, 2007 20:19:36 GMT
Got her on the back burner for a couple of days awaiting some 6SN7 valves and a pair of Mills 12W 220ohm resistors. I've decided not to bother tweaking the guts of the 336i and will use it "as is" apart from the Mills 12W resistors and a different pair of valves (the stock resistors run so hot they're almost glowing so I'd prefer something pretty meaty in this position) These things are built from the ground up and, as such, it's not a simple case of popping out one component and popping in another.... it would require a partial strip down to get to the parts I'd want to change so decided not to bother at all.
Those three 10uF film caps per channel (appear to be polyester) are niggling me and I may eventually replace them with one single cap per channel.... not too keen on the signal going through three when it only needs to go through one and this could explain why the bass was a bit muddy in places.
How were your stock valves Fergus? Pretty poor or not too bad?
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 9, 2007 20:43:34 GMT
"Pretty poor", Mike, I have to say. They sounded harsh, eardrum splitingly harsh, glassy and flat. I fact, the major gripe from DARKVOICE owners the world over concern the valves. Chinese valves are very poor indeed. Better valves lift DARKVOICE amps considerably - opening up the sound, "solidifying" the bass (especially the MULLARD M8100s), and adding sparkle to the top-end. All round improvement. I definately agree with you - whip those 6 polyesters out and replace with 2 high quality caps. One thing I've learned from reading posts on this site is that too many components in the signal path is going to degrade sound quality. What are you going to use? Still thinking about the ANSARs? I'll be interested to see how the resistors will not only affect the working of the amp but the sonics too.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 9, 2007 21:23:14 GMT
"Pretty poor", Mike, I have to say. They sounded harsh, eardrum splitingly harsh, glassy and flat. I fact, the major gripe from DARKVOICE owners the world over concern the valves. Chinese valves are very poor indeed. Funny, the stock ones with the 336i sound the complete opposite... very syrup, very vague and quite congested... let's see what transpires when the replacements arrive Being in "budget" mode I've bought some pretty bog standard GE6080 black plate for the back and some Electro Harmonix 6SN7 and Electro Harmonix 6SN7GT gold pins for the front.... they should be good enough to give me an idea. Yeh, the sound is going through three of these buggers per channel... I note on your amp they fitted one solitary 33uF SCR cap instead (much better) pretty much limits the Darkvoice amps to High impedance 'phones however. >220uF would have been a lot better in this position but it would have to be an electrolytic as a 220uF polyprop would be the size of a small garden shed ;D If I'm going to replace the 33uF per channel Fergus then it'll be with >220uF of electrolytic if I plan on using the amp with 32 ohm 'phones.... if I decided to keep it and only use it for the Sennheisers then I'll fit a couple of 40uF Ansar supersounds or maybe even some LCR types. They won't affect the workings of the amp but I'll feel more confident knowing I've got a top quality 12 watter here..... they run red hot in this position I want to be sure I've got a pair on board that will last a long long time..... being low inductance types the Mills may well improve the sonics as an added bonus...... we'll see
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Fergus
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Post by Fergus on Feb 9, 2007 21:54:23 GMT
The GE6080 (6AS7) black-plate is meant to be a brilliant tube in the 336/336i - one of best in fact. EH tubes also are very good, especially the GT gold pins versions. The RCA versions also come very highly recommended. I'm blessed with only having one pair of cans (HD650s) and so am not cursed with the high impedance/low impedance conundrum. Although a number of guys have tried the 332 with the GRADOs and it sounds, according to them, great. LCR components - are they good? It's just I opened up and old QUANTUM amps I had years back, and there were four great LCR caps in the PSU stage. I've just always wondered were good?
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 9, 2007 23:41:20 GMT
a number of guys have tried the 332 with the GRADOs and it sounds, according to them, great. They must be deaf as posts then.
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rickcr42
Fully Modded
Rest in peace my good friend.
Posts: 4,514
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Post by rickcr42 on Feb 10, 2007 0:14:34 GMT
gotta go with mike on this one.NO WAY does 30uF into a 32 ohm resistance sound "great" and especailly so in a headphone KNOWN to slant to the lower treble range why you think this "pole" is grimmacing so ? Yup.Grados from a small value cap coupled headphone amp
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Fergus
100+
Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
Posts: 197
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Post by Fergus on Feb 10, 2007 0:25:11 GMT
OK, guys, I'll take your word for it.
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 13, 2007 21:35:37 GMT
Awesome, just awesome! Now I've managed to fit any valve without hum.... just AWESOME! I'll be back
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Post by PinkFloyd on Feb 24, 2007 22:37:57 GMT
At last the non polar Nichicon 100V 220uF capacitors arrived. The 3 x 10uF coupling caps were just strangling the bass response with low impedance 'phones so I whipped all six of them out and replaced with 1 x 220uF 100V non polar per channel. I'd have prefered to use 470uF / 200V in this position but the Nichicons were only available in 100V / 220uF max. The voltage across the caps is 80V so 100V rated caps are a bit close to the bone but perfectly good. Inspired by Fitz (over at Head-Fi) I've also fitted a couple of ELNA cerafine 100uF 63V cathode resistor bypass caps which have helped to greatly reduce the hum I was experiencing when using 6SN7 valves. The 336i can now take any flavour of 6SN7 with only a very slight hum at zero volco. I wasn't happy with the hot 220R power resistors so fitted 2 x 100R in series which has cooled things down by 40% The amp still runs very hot (especially after it's been powered up for a good few hours) and it's like sitting next to a mini furnace, certainly more of a winter amp than a summer one as far as I'm concerened. The initial £130 seems a bargain but once you start rolling in a plethora of different valves the cost soon starts to mount up and you find yourself surrounded by glass bottles. I know some people love this kind of thing but I find an amp that resembles a mini heater, the size of a breeze block and an appetite for exotic glass bottles most inconvenient (and this is the "smallest" in the Darkvoice lineup) It'll probably last a lifetime but I keep expecting it to go BOOM! I certainly feel a lot more comfortable with cool running solid state sitting next to me I must admit ;D Sound quality is rich, tonaly pleasing and EXTREMELY dynamic.... this amp will almost make you shit your pants in places.... where there's a wham from your solid state amp there's more of a WHAM!!! from this guy. It's definitely the way the music should come across and if you're into a thrill a minute, white knuckle ride then look no further but be prepared to spend quite a lot extra finding the best valves for the job. The stock valves aren't bad and are the only ones which are truly inky black silent but they are slightly tubby sounding in the bass region. If you like your music presented in a sledgehammer, grunty, full bodied and exciting way then this will fit the bill, and then some. My only major gripe is the paltry 30uF of capacitance they've fitted at the output, nowhere near enough for low impedance 'phones and to waste so much internal space fitting 3 x 10uF caps onto a PCB is pointless when that space could be better occupied by 2 x 470uF electrolytics. Other less major gripes are the resistors which are directly hooked onto the power caps.... these guys are running at upward of 160C in parts and will certainly shorten the lifespan of the 105C caps, no doubt about that. They'd be better fitting low inductance resistors further away from the capacitors and heatsinking / securing them rather than have them hanging in free space coupled directly onto the capacitor terminals. The linear potentiometer goes from zero to loud in less than a quarter of a turn.... why not use a good quality 100K logarithmic pot here? The 336i has got the makings of a superb amp but it seems the "end user" is the one who has to find the right combo of valves etc. to get the best performance out of it and that means throwing more money into it. Why oh why is it increasingly becoming the case that the customer ends up doing all the time consuming donkey work / tweaking / listening tests for the manufacturers..... I'd like to think they were producing well though out, superb sounding amps but it seems they're punting out half baked gear expecting you to continue baking at home. Fantastic sounding amp if you can find the right valve combo but don't let the £130 price tag fool you into thinking you've got a bargain, consider the shipping cost to you (and the return cost should it go tits up) and the money you will certainly spend trying out alternative valves.
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Fergus
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Done a David Ike and is now known as Godkin
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Post by Fergus on Feb 25, 2007 13:55:24 GMT
Thanks, Mike, for the valuable comments on the 336i and for the PM. Your conclusions are very fair and your "tweaks" very valid. It certainly seems to reflect other comments voiced here and elsewhere - namely, the problems with hum encountered when tube rolling. Fortunately, I haven't experienced hum when tube rolling - yet!!! But there are others who have, and with your permission I'll tell them about the cathode bypass caps.
Like you, I don't see the point of infinite tube rolling, although the financial constraints with the 332 are not as heavy as with the 336i. The dearest tubes so far were a pair of RCA 5654/6AK5Ws at £11.
I suspect that the linear pot in the 336i is used in the 332. Small adjustments to the volume control result in huge increases in sound. Would a ALPS pot be a suitable improvement, and would it fit?
I don't think any changes to the output stage would be necessary in my case, as it seems designed to be used with higher impedance cans and the SCR caps are of good quality. However, could the PSU caps be improved, and what values are they? And what about resistors? With the right mods, I think the 332 could sound even better.
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