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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 1:23:03 GMT
I note that jPlay is once again under attack by the "bits are bits" brigade in a couple of different forums, and the closed minded, and hard line Objectivist "Archimago" is being frequently quoted in support of this.(" If I can't measure it, then it isn't possible". Sound familiar? ) I would be interested to see if our members have a preference for a particular software player with Windows PCs. Do you play your audio files directly, or use a program that supports playback from System memory with the Windows mixer bypassed ? Some of the more commonly used players are WMP, Creative Media Source player, cPlay, jPlay, the unashamedly "bits are bits "jRiver, that claims jPlay is a HOAX, Foobar 2K, or XXHE. Do YOU hear any audible differences between players that are claimed to be bit perfect ? Do any of you hear differences between files stored at different locations such as internal and externally? Does a .wav file stored on a HDD, sound as good as a .wav file saved on a USB memory stick using a +5V Linear PSU?
Alex
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Jul 7, 2013 22:00:11 GMT
Of course there is no measurable difference (yet) between any bit-perfect software player so for those "who know how digital & computers work" their choice is simple - any software player will do.
If however you want to actually listen then maybe, just maybe, some sound better than others - only your ears will tell you this. Yes, we are dealing with the last 10% & so it does depend on your system's resolution.
What the hell would I know though - I'm stupid enough to admit that I don't know all the variables & interactions involved in computer audio - wish I did & how to measure them. However, I see many claim that they know all there is to know about this field & can predict what something will sound like - so I guess I must just be stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 22:21:25 GMT
Hi John What really pissed me off was the rather nasty attacks on jPlay by jRiver, who are claiming on their site that jPlay is a HOAX and causes their software problems, and extra work for their support staff. jRiver is firmly in the "bits are bits" camp and also make that plain. Apparently the latest nasty thing from jRiver is a later version that causes a warning to pop up if jPlay is also installed. This nasty war of words couldn't have anything to do with the many reports that jPlay actually SOUNDS better than jRiver, could it ? Recently in C.A. there have been some nasty little wars aimed at jPlay. That closed minded refugee from Hydrogen Audio called Archimago, has also posted in numerous forums, and is being widely quoted by other "experts" as having proved that all software players that are "bit perfect" sound the same. Try telling that to XXHE users too ! Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2013 22:55:42 GMT
I've never had a go with jPlay. cPlay yes, finding at the time there was certainly a difference but far too faffy for my usage so went back to normal foobar.
I may be dreaming, as I can't go back to check, but since Foobar updated the Flac part of their prog I'm almost convinced I'm getting better sound from Flac files than I had before?!
In this case it is obviously possible that I could simply be experiencing good day/bad day listening sessions.
On looking at the change log I didn't see anything, to my limited knowledge, that would account for it.
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Jul 8, 2013 0:11:20 GMT
Yes, indeed, Alex, calling another product a hoax is serious & pretty stupid, in my opinion but then the arrogance demonstrated by the "bits is bits" brigade usually knows no bounds. Funnily, JRiver can't even be consistent - firstly they say Jplay does nothing (as proven by Archimago's measurements) then they claim that Jplay may make Jriver sound worse. How could this be if Jplay does nothing. Smells of desperation to me. With these sort of tactics & this sort of business sense, I predict they are destined to close shop.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 9, 2013 9:16:30 GMT
I think it's all down to Jriver having to sort out problems when Jriver owners say they are having problems. And the blaming Jriver....
I can't see Jplay telling/helping Jriver with the configuration changes, so Jriver had to try to find them for themselves, which wouldn't be easy..
But then Jplay is just some secret config changes, which cost much more the Jriver, which is a whole program. I can see why Jriver gets pissed off.....
Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 9:43:45 GMT
Allan I can't believe that jPlay owners wouldn't first contact jPlay support with problems. Why would they contact jRiver support in this case ? In any event jPlay is also standalone, but also works with iTunes, Foobar etc. I also see that since HDTracks is using jRiver DL software that more people are having problems with incomplete DLs and incorrectly named files etc. ( a C.A. thread) . Personally, I wouldn't have a bar of ANY company that resorts to stuff like attached on their website, AND in their latest revision tells THEIR customers that jPlay has been detected and should be removed. Jplay is a Hoax
JRiver recommends that you uninstall Jplay. It adds a layer of sound processing that can degrade sound quality, performance, and stability.
You will achieve the best sound quality with JRiver alone.
The author of the foobar player agrees.
For his computeraudiophile.com blog, Mitchco tested JRiver Media Center and Jplay. Both produce measurably identical bitperfect output.
Archimago also found no benefit.
For a more detailed discussion, please visit the HydrogenAudio Forum.
To protect its customers, JRiver will remove forum posts that discuss Jplay. JRiver will not provide support for Media Center if Jplay is used.
The interesting thing here, is that on one hand they insist that " bits are bits" and all " bit perfect" players sound the same. On the other hand they now claim that jPlay which is also " bit perfect" is degrading the sound !!! The mere mention of the hard line " Hydrogen Audio" forum, where Rule no.8 prohibits discussion of subjective reports says it all. Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 9, 2013 11:52:11 GMT
Jriver is US$49.00 Jplay is EURO $99.00
Jriver is full featured audio/video ETC app. Jplay is a lame "ultra-minimalistic non-GUI interface"/"in other words... command line" just to play audio...
Jplay makes it's usability, off other companies application software and hard work with an unknown configuration script for setup. Jplay also charges more than twice the price for the privilege.
Jplay users shouldn't be asking Jriver about problems.. Jplay need to provide the support, but I gather this doesn't happen.
Now, I did try Jplay, and it did make a difference, but at 3 times the price of Jriver, just for a plugin..... hmmm I don't think so.
I was thinking about finding what changes were make with Jplay.... but to load with and without, take a windows reg snapshot and then search through the lines of code for differences.... hey I really need no life.
ASIO WASPI etc are documented, supported and updated/supported by there relevant developers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 12:10:24 GMT
Allan I have been following several long threads in C.A. and I don't believe this is a problem for jRiver support. It sounds more like sour grapes to me as jPlay is often reported to sound better, and is perhaps hurting jRiver's bottom line. Many posters in C.A., report that jPlay support is first class , and prompt. Their price may be high but gives future upgrades and lifetime support. Some of the Mac Audio programs cost more, and mate with Looney tunes, as well as upgrades costing, so what's the problem ? Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 9, 2013 12:47:09 GMT
Allan I have been following several long threads in C.A. and I don't believe this is a problem for jRiver support. It sounds more like sour grapes to me as jPlay is often reported to sound better, and is perhaps hurting jRiver's bottom line. Many posters in C.A., report that jPlay support is first class , and prompt. Their price may be high but gives future upgrades and lifetime support. Some of the Mac Audio programs cost more, and mate with Looney tunes, as well as upgrades costing, so what's the problem ? Alex Then why would Jriver have issues with this... As the users that use Jplay are still using/buying Jrivers to use it... As Jplay by itself, is a joke.
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Jul 9, 2013 19:51:36 GMT
Allan I have been following several long threads in C.A. and I don't believe this is a problem for jRiver support. It sounds more like sour grapes to me as jPlay is often reported to sound better, and is perhaps hurting jRiver's bottom line. Many posters in C.A., report that jPlay support is first class , and prompt. Their price may be high but gives future upgrades and lifetime support. Some of the Mac Audio programs cost more, and mate with Looney tunes, as well as upgrades costing, so what's the problem ? Alex Then why would Jriver have issues with this... As the users that use Jplay are still using/buying Jrivers to use it... As Jplay by itself, is a joke. Exactly, why would JRiver have a problem if Jplay works in synergy? Jplay uses an industry standard audio interface, nothing proprietary, that any other audio player can interface with - Foobar, iTunes interface without any issues. If JRiver are having problems with Jplay their interface must not have implemented this industry standard correctly. Perhaps this is one of the many reasons why JRiver have such a strong reaction to Jplay - it is exposing their mistakes (leaving aside the fact that JRiver doesn't sound as good as Jplay)
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 10, 2013 9:19:21 GMT
Jriver is a full featured app for playing audio, video etc also over network, remote controlled etc.... Jplay is basic gui, plays audio only. Jplay hook into Jriver as a plugin, so there it's Jplay's problem other plugins ie asio, are documented... so if a app wishes to use there plugin theres the info. Jplay either stops other windows drivers/processes or changes the timing. Jplay won't tell anyone what there secret source is. Foobar is an app, audio only, and open source so Jplay con sort out the problems themselves. Whatever Jplays config's are? If the change too much in Jriver, it probably either screw up video/network or others and if Jplay cut back some of the secret source, it may not sound as good. allan
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Jul 10, 2013 21:24:20 GMT
Jriver is a full featured app for playing audio, video etc also over network, remote controlled etc.... Jplay is basic gui, plays audio only. Jplay hook into Jriver as a plugin, so there it's Jplay's problem other plugins ie asio, are documented... so if a app wishes to use there plugin theres the info. Jplay either stops other windows drivers/processes or changes the timing. Jplay won't tell anyone what there secret source is. Foobar is an app, audio only, and open source so Jplay con sort out the problems themselves. Whatever Jplays config's are? If the change too much in Jriver, it probably either screw up video/network or others and if Jplay cut back some of the secret source, it may not sound as good. allan What are you talking about - you make no sense whatsoever! I'll say it again - Jplay uses industry standard interfaces that any other software can be used with (if they adhere to these industry standards). If there is a problem in some software interfacing with Jplay, then they have a problem with their software & it's adherence to industry standards - simple. Now please explain what your ramblings are about?
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 11, 2013 8:48:13 GMT
it's industry standard for playing audio, dedicated to pc,
how about streaming video etc
allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 9:01:57 GMT
Allan Isn't video streaming fairly recent ? IIRC they have admitted it has a few bugs that they are working on. Alex
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Jul 11, 2013 19:57:03 GMT
it's industry standard for playing audio, dedicated to pc, how about streaming video etc allan I don't get this logic, at all? Jplay uses industry standard audio interface which you agree with. Are Jriver having problems with video reproduction? If so then how is this Jplay's problem? Either the industry standard for audio is broken & interfering with video streaming, in which case the standard needs to be addressed OR Jriver is having problems integrating the video streaming with their audio interface - in which case Jriver need to address their issues - how is this Jplay's problem? Why would Jriver then say "It adds a layer of sound processing that can degrade sound quality, performance, and stability. You will achieve the best sound quality with JRiver alone." Do they mean Video & not audio? I still don't follow your logic. Please explain.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 12, 2013 9:23:13 GMT
Foobar, cPlay, Jriver, Jplay etc, all use "industry standard audio interface" What part is the "industry standard audio interface" The sound interface to the driver ie ASIO? Certainly not the Gui "display". They, ie Foobar, Jriver, cPlay etc, all use (ASIO, WASAPI etc) for the data output to convert to a format that the soundcard can use. So what does Jplay use??? ok just looked at Jplay's manual webpage, and they use either ASIO or "JPLAY ASIO Driver" From Jplay's website manual "JPLAY ASIO Driver is simply used as means to more transparently integrate with host player!". So, if Jplay uses an "industry standard audio interface" ie Jplay's ASIO, then what are they changing to make it sound different. Or, what changes to the Windows registry are they doing? ie services> started or stopped, processes/process priority> ?, etc Allan Side note I emailed them yonks ago about whether they were "bitperfect" like ASIO. Their was reply was, that it was, and the windows system was better tuned to play just audio. My take on their on going(short time only) replies was, it was more like cPlay, as windows processes/process priority, devices etc were either stopped, latency changed, priority changes etc to suit a specific task.... ie sound only. Hope this helps a bit more
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2013 9:32:53 GMT
Allan Nevertheless, on your own admission earlier, jPlay DID sound better, but you decided the asking price was too high.
Regards Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 12, 2013 11:14:38 GMT
Allan Nevertheless, on your own admission earlier, jPlay DID sound better, but you decided the asking price was too high. Regards Alex It did sound better but so can manipulation through any variety of sound processors.... Whether it's better or more pleasant is irrelevant, I wanted accuracy. I can get more pleasant with a valve. Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2013 11:29:32 GMT
Allan Nevertheless, on your own admission earlier, jPlay DID sound better, but you decided the asking price was too high. Regards Alex It did sound better but so can manipulation through any variety of sound processors.... Whether it's better or more pleasant is irrelevant, I wanted accuracy. I can get more pleasant with a valve. Allan Allan Surely the point here, as claimed by jRiver, is that it can't possibly have sounded different, while remaining "bit perfect" What kind of valve ? Your sphincter valve ? Regards Alex
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 12, 2013 12:15:30 GMT
It did sound better but so can manipulation through any variety of sound processors.... Whether it's better or more pleasant is irrelevant, I wanted accuracy. I can get more pleasant with a valve. Allan Allan Surely the point here, as claimed by jRiver, is that it can't possibly have sounded different, while remaining "bit perfect" What kind of valve ? Your sphincter valve ? Regards Alex Alex I'm not getting into sound difference between bit perfect outputs. But the algorithms used by various decoders to output the audio data to the soundcards must have some impact. ASIO is the main one that's priority has been bitperfect. Now Jplay say there "JPLAY ASIO Driver" sound better? I ask why? what's changed? They say it's secret..... as my previous comment on "secret source" If it's ASIO related then does Jplay sound the same with "Jplay with the ASIO driver" and "Jplay with the Jplay ASIO driver"? If it does well? If it doesn't? Then did they change the ASIO driver? Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 0:35:10 GMT
jRiver - Greed or bad judgement?
See the recent thread about "jRiver - a sense of humour or..." in Computer Audiophile - Software.
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pagan
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Post by pagan on Jul 13, 2013 2:22:33 GMT
jRiver - Greed or bad judgement? See the recent thread about "jRiver - a sense of humour or..." in Computer Audiophile - Software. Looks like an ooops on the web/email list page update. I got an email referring to the upgrade to 19 too.... I ask myself........ Why would I need to upgrade? Does it fix anything? What extra functions or abilities does it have, that would be useful? No details available yet so, no
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jkeny
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Post by jkeny on Nov 1, 2013 0:47:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 0:28:12 GMT
Hi John, To save me, and anyone else for that matter, wading through 113 pages of info on MQN. Could you give more of an idea what it does and it's basic presentation (UI). I take it we're talking something like Jplay/CPlay here? A plug in for Foobar that hopefully makes for better SQ. Any OS limitations? Does it use its own interface or run discretely in the background while you use the foobar UI? You lost me with the essentials file thing. More info for less savvy folk please Cheers
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