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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 23:07:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 0:31:21 GMT
Hi Alex
That’s an interesting thread but easy to get lost in.
I’ve spent an hour looking for blue ray spec music.
I’ll get back to that one
Take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 0:57:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 0:58:47 GMT
I like sone, he actually knows what he is talking about!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 1:26:18 GMT
I like sone, he actually knows what he is talking about! Greg I like better, people who actually use their ears , instead of quoting outdated theory taught at Uni many years ago. Perhaps Dave, Geoff, Allan and myself need to do some statistically relevant listening tests at a future GTG, to try and prove we aren't all imagining these things ? Even our E.E. friend from Sydney has changed his tune after seeing the reports by Barry Diament, and is now more open minded.. I would much rather believe what both Martin Colloms and possibly the most famous Recording and Mastering Engineer of our time, Barry Diament, both say after proper listening sessions, than a truckload of know-it-all sceptics. In Barry's case, despite me recommending direct play from a CD/DVD player, this time he copied selected tracks from the CDs that I supplied to HDD, and using his studio equipment was able to swap seamlessly between both versions without any noticeable gaps. He also swapped the pecking order, yet his wife Mary who is a gifted musician herself, was still able to correctly identify which track was which. Burying one's head in the sand and hoping these things will go away, only blocks your ears up more ! Kind Regards Alex In case some don't know who Barry Diament is www.allmusic.com/artist/barry-diament-mn0001713681
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 3:12:41 GMT
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the reply.
Are we still talking about bit identical files sounding different?
regards Greg
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 3:58:32 GMT
Hi Alex, Thanks for the reply. Are we still talking about bit identical files sounding different? regards Greg Hi Greg You could always read the C.A. thread that I linked to, instead of just quoting a reply from a newcomer to that forum, who seems to be on a Hydrogen Audio Forum style evangelical crusade. He won't last too long in the quite tolerant C.A. forum with an attitude like his. Regards Alex P.S. I didn't email you info about the CDs that I sent Barry, and the detailed results of his tests, as it would more than likely have pissed you off, and remained unread.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 10:33:32 GMT
''Some of that thread is reminiscent of some of the earlier heated discussions here, isn't it?''
Yes Alex nothing wrong with discussion IMHO
But without much taking things ‘’personally’’ and the hisssssy fits.
It’s an important part of the learning process and allows people to hear all sides of an argument.
Then they can make their own minds up on things.
Take care
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Apr 19, 2013 21:01:44 GMT
I don't think we talk about identical files sounding different anymore. The opposing view has either gone quite or left.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 23:18:39 GMT
I don't think we talk about identical files sounding different anymore. The opposing view has either gone quite or left. Adrian As far as I am concerned, I can't do much more than get confirmation by both Martin Colloms, and now Barry Diament,,who most likely mastered or recorded several of the CDs in your own collection. We talk about these kinds of things here, because they have a bearing on all digital copying, and conversion to and from other formats. If you have read the last part of the thread, you will see that one C.A. member who was very demanding , and rejected the files that I sent him, demanding that I provide special material for him, later vindictively gave out the DL Links in open forum. Check out this person and his previously owned company with Google. Rock Grotto permits subjective reports from all members, no matter what the type of hardware or software. unlike forums such as Hydrogen Audio where rule no.8 bans subjective reports. In any case, at this time of year ,most forums with members predominantly in the northern hemisphere go pretty quiet, and posts on any subject are welcomed here. Shaun especially, is going to a lot of trouble with posts to keep the forum ticking over, and give members something to look at. I try to do the same with other non technical posts. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 0:20:34 GMT
I don't think we talk about identical files sounding different anymore. The opposing view has either gone quite or left. Why not? One of the really nice things about this place is that people generally feel free to post on whatever subject that they want to talk about. And If people don't feel inclined to join the discussion Fair enough No one’s twisting any arms on that I’m still using Alex's USB PSU (I have two by the way) almost every day and still read with great interest Alex's developments in this area. BTW I’m making no special effort to post Just always building something or other and like to share sometimes people are interested and sometimes not Take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 1:50:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 2:19:59 GMT
Hi Greg I am not sure what your point is here. Leaving aside the " bits are bits" debate, I feel sure that you have, just as Allan, Geoff and David have, heard the differences that more attention to the USB cable and PSUs make compared with earlier listening sessions. David also demonstrated both at his place and here, the marked improvement that a +5V JLH PSU and it's modified cable even made with USB playback from his Oppon 95. In fact, I would love to have an Oppo 95 after hearing it this way here. I have also demonstrated here to the satisfaction of Geoff and others, the soundstage difference that Coax SPDIF makes compared with a cheap Optical cable. I would love to try a 1M Glass Optical fibre cable, with the SC DAC and it's improved power, but they seem to come from the U.S.A. mainly, and P and P costs as much as the actual cables. The main problem with Toslink is the extra conversion stage, mediocre commonly available Toslink Receivers with vague bandwidth specifications, and the need for improved PSUs to get around the problem of added Jitter during the conversion to and from Toslink. Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 11:47:01 GMT
Hey Greg That was an interesting and fun thread that you linked too. I just love a trip back to the mid-seventies where audio cables and component quality made no difference to SQ either. It really is nice to know that the ''if it can't be measured it can't be true'' dinosaurs have found somewhere to hole up as I thought that they were all but extinct but now we have a HiFi Jurassic park to visit just to stare at the last of the species (well at least one). A really funny read. Take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 11:55:13 GMT
Hi Shaun I believe there is one hiding out up near Mt.Kuring-Gai just north of Sydney. There are rumours of it "mudding the waters" around Berowra on occasion ! Regards Alex
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:08:00 GMT
Hi Alex Are you sure that’s not a barramundi? They have a tendency to do that water muddying thing. Just to be clear on that though I’d never count Greg as part of that bunch because he actually takes the time to hear for himself and make his own mind up unlike some I could mention. Take care
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Apr 20, 2013 18:33:49 GMT
To me there is an obvious contradiction in accepting that identical rips can sound different – assuming we make the assumption that the playback chain is identical (and I think, given the variables, this may be impossible to achieve). It maybe that blind tests lead some to that conclusion but it is easy to see that the statement is flawed at a fundamental level. Digital is digital – not because it has some god like status but because, by definition, the data is identical.
I agree entirely that the PSU plays a great part in playback. In fact my experience is that during playback many things (cables, mains, disk drives, the kettle being on – everything really) can impact on the sound. I too read Alex’s comments on the PSU in playback with great interest and I wish I had more time to implement them myself. My study is littered with PSUs hanging off equipment because they make a difference.
I am of the view that hearing and thus perceived sound quality is entirely subjective. It must be. I cannot for one moment guess how somebody perceives music – bass treble clarity etc. By saying this however I have only my own opinion as ammunition, and often for this reason I don’t post anymore on Rock Grotto. The same is true also of so called experts – Martin Collums is, to me, just another pair ears when a blind test is undertaken.
We do however need to agree standards by which we can objectively compare; I mean in life in general and not just our hobby. Objective measurement is essential for the design, production and quality assurance of equipment. Equally, objective measurement (with the education and training requirement associated with it) allows some comparison and, for this reason, it is those who have learnt this objective ‘science’ who are entitled to question the subjective opinions of others. This does not mean they are right.
Turning to Rock Grotto, I do think there are a lot of members who don’t post. I also miss those who have left, particularly Frans & Claus. To be honest I’m not bothered if identical rips sound different; I spend an afternoon testing it myself (I posted my comments somewhere) and couldn’t tell the difference. I do however care that Javier is no longer posting updates on Foobar and that Ian has gone quite. There, I’ve said it.
Taking all this into account however I must say that I am happy with my system at the moment and do spend most of my time listening. The best bit of advice Mike ever gave me was to leave the lid on and listen to the music.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 19:00:55 GMT
Hi Freddy All good points well received. For my part I think that it's important for anyone with an opinion to post what they think. but as far as I know this is a discussion forum where if people post then they should expect replies. Sometimes ones that they may not like toooo much but that's life (as the song goes) You can't hear the difference between rips Ok I’d say that was fine by me. Having the discussion is what counts most IMHO. That way people get to make up their own minds from their own experience and with their own ears. What I find hard to accept is when people tell me how something sounds without bothering to listen for themselves because it challenges what they already (think)they know. From your post above I’d say that you don't fall into that category and my hat is off to you. I made a deliberate reference to the bad old days of cables/caps and what not sounding the same because I think that we are being asked to blindly believe that crap again dressed up as something else. Nope I keep my ears and mind as open as possible. Take care
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 21:21:54 GMT
Adrian You are entitled to your beliefs and the right to post them here. You have said that M.C. is just another pair of ears, but the 6 blind tests that Martin organised used different listeners. It's much harder though to ignore reports by possibly the most famous Recording and Mastering Engineer of our time ,as well as the many earlier confirmations by Ian, who is a Professor of Music. Of special interest to me in Barry's report was this comment "...... as though some random treble energy surrounded the details in the recordings....."Barry was referring here to the tracks that were made without using the better power supplies. I was a little disappointed that Barry didn't use the CDs directly as intended ,but chose to copy selected tracks from both CDs to HDD, then play them using his studio equipment so that he could seamlessly switch between tracks without noticing the changes. This made the differences that he reported between versions far more subtle. Nevertheless, both he and his wife both reported hearing the same types of differences between versions. Regards Alex P.S. Back in the Spinning Wheel thread in Saucerful , ekbluesboy burned several of the comparison tracks to a CD, that Barry had on his 2 CDs , each with different content. Jeff's posts, including the comment that upset DaveK are at this link. rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/8804/spinning-wheel?page=1
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