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Post by gsarider on Dec 20, 2012 22:36:37 GMT
Apologies, but I am most likely going to be asking very basic questions ...
Now I've been reading in what hifi mag that the Dragonfly DAC is excellent and their DAC of the year...and I've been looking for a good quality solution...better than the Fiio E17 that I've been using to date.
Now when I read on head fi that it was also a decent amp and that it could power hd800's, I just couldn't see it. So firstly is my assumption right? Secondly what would be a good rig for taking to the office and on trips? Any recommendations.
I should also add that head fi users have also said the Aune t1 would be good for leaving in my office?
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Dec 20, 2012 23:37:52 GMT
For a transportable rig specially for trips I would seriously consider a battery amp/dac or at least one that could be fed via usb. Both have limitations, how much money are willing to spend.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 7:09:43 GMT
To be honest, amps are pretty close in terms of sound that they deliver with most having minute differences. There aren't that many bad ones out there nowadays.
Most are in the middle ground somewhere with a few dodgies at the bottom of the pile and some that have something that delivers more than just music. They communicate better.
So it would also depend on how sensitive you are to much more subtle things from the amp. You can easily accustomise yourself to the sound of most amps. (It can be a lot harder with headphones)
The HD800 is capable of delivering a very detailed sound (without considering the tone which I presume that you like)
The E17 isn't particularly detailed. It's a fine amp but I wouldn't say top of the pile in terms of detail. If you're not that sensitive to the detail in music, then it will sound absolutely fine.
If you do notice deficiencies, then the amp can help and I'm afraid there's not a cheap answer. A good headphone will only really shine from a good amp and more important, a good source. If the source is producing no detail, then the amp won't put it back.
So first, make sure that you're not using mp3 or a poor source, otherwise I'd stick to what you have. If you're still not happy, then a higher end amp will help.
As to what to buy - there are loads and I wouldn't recommend any one amp until you know the rest is right and what you don't like about the sound. Differences with amps tend to be quite small. Your Fiio probably sounds fine and you're just curious. It's an expensive thought if you're not that sensitive to minor alterations. The amp that Miguel suggested in another thread is superb.
A good amp will have very very little noise, hiss, hum. That's because the electrics don't do any interfering with each other and quality parts are in there. That's my first port of call for dropping an amp most of the time. (That was the biggest problem with the little open frame amps - awful noise but sounded ok)
Most important for me is the 'timbre' or tone. I'm very sensitive to the 'tone' of what I hear. If a stringed instrument doesn't sound 'stringy', then the amp isn't quite right. (try a similar thing for anything else for that matter)
Bass should sound full bodied and I like to hear the strings of the bass guitar. In real life, they don't just make a boom noise low down, you hear fingers moving over frets and the string 'twang'.
Treble (imo) shouldn't be a screech. Many think that screechy treble is what hi fi is. Not so. Hear a really high end system and it positively sings in the treble without pain.
Finally, the attacks. They should be powerful and die away quickly which very often gives you the feeling of what I call a 'see through' sound. Where you can hear the tiny little things inside music. For instance, last night, I was listening to Fairport Convention's 'Leige and Lief'. On that album, (which is not brilliantly recorded) there is a fabulous guy on the violin called Dave Swarbrick. He is a very subtle player who very often sticks tiny little musical comments into the main body of sound at very low level - he plays these minute little patterns underneath the wall of sound coming from the others at one point in one of the songs on that album. With a poor amp/headphone, you don't really pick it up that well. With a good set up, it's dead easy to follow each individual note that he plays and you then start realising that the others are answering him occasionally in tiny imitating phrases back.
Those kind of subtleties will only emerge on better systems.
When listening, shut the eyes and ask yourself this .... ' Do they sound like they're not in the room?' If they don't sound like they're actually there, then ask yourself what it is in the sound that gives it away.
When you've spotted what the giveaway is, you'll start looking for something that is better for the right reasons, or else you'll spend a lot of money.
The reality question is the one that many hi fi people avoid. Many can accept colourations (I can) and are happy with that.
Try to hear a really top system in a shop if you can. It's a sound that you will never forget. Once you have a target sound, you'll know what to listen for.
Top sound for digital? I'd go for a JKDAC32 (for me - a very enlightening experience) John is a fantastic guy to deal with. Unbelievably helpful and honest with you. One of the most open hi fi guys I've seen. The DAC32 was a whole new world for me as far as digital goes and I was very sorry to see his unit go home after I reviewed it on here. Although your DAC is a nice one, the DAC32 is a brilliant one!!
Connect that to the amp that Miguel suggested on something at a similar quality as a source and you will have a serious headphone sound as long as your source is a good one.
What Hi Fi are not always on the ball. Sometimes I wonder if they'd be better reviewing sofas. Be careful of them. They're kind of nice about everything. (What lovely people!!)
Going down this route is big money but you'll still spend big money on cheap stuff until you get fed up and replace it again. Also, how much do you actually notice when listening? In other words, how sensitive are you to sound.
Finally, we all won't agree on what is 'best'. That doesn't mean we're a bunch of 'porky pie'ers'. We all hear differently. Most of us on RG accept that and it causes no problems (as it can on other sites where people put you down for what you hear) The guys here are great at reading and discussing and don't put you down because you think this or that sounds good.
I have been here since virtually the start (although I didn't write or announce myself) and I soon started to find the people who have similar 'hearing' to me and who gives the right 'steers' and I must say that it has got me listening to a lot of cheaper stuff that has amazed me in some cases in that how well they deliver sound for the price and how close they can get to expensive sound. The further up the food chain you go, the tinier the differences become so you need to kind of form a picture in your mind of what you actually want from the gear in order to assess what you have does, if that makes sense.
Try the reality test. (and be honest to yourself!!) If you do, it is VERY important to get the volume right for you, so that the music kind of focuses. (Digital or analogue)
Main thing - listen to Music, not hi fi. I get more pleasure form music than hi fi. It is OFTEN the other way around with hi fi fanatics.........
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Post by gsarider on Dec 21, 2012 7:45:02 GMT
Currently I have the E17 and E09K on my desk at home, using my Mac an Apple lossless files mainly. Currently listening via Amperiors, Momentum's and a set of IE80's. I appreciate the help with the DAC & Amp. I realise that I'll have to invest in the rig seriously to get a good pairing with the HD800's, it's just confusing at times with contradictory advice / reviews.
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Dec 21, 2012 7:45:04 GMT
A very thorough answer and i totaly agree Ian!! Having lived with a few amps and the 800's these are the conclusions that i have come to exactly. I must add, that i do use the 800's sometimes with my e17, these days less, especially after doing an version of the "Anaxilus mod" on my 800's... which quietened/smoothed out the slight shrill/metal timbre of the 800's and that was the reason that i used the e17 with them in the first place... It is very important to understand the term "headroom"... this is the main difference (apart from noise) between amps... and you definitely need lots of headroom for "serious" listening... Headroom is very basically the ability of the amplifier to maintain the correct analogy of high volume music passes in comparison to low ones... meaning to maintain the dynamics... lesser amps tend to compress the dynamics and/or cause distortion in the signal during high signal/volume. On the other hand because the purpose is to enjoy music i never had second thoughts to connect my 800's to the e17, if this was musically satisfying to me and it certainly is... If we had a graph depicting on the one side the term Accurate music reproduction and on the other side Pleasing musical reproduction i would prefer to be somewhere in the middle of this line... others might prefer to be closer to the one or the other edge... Sorry if i am repeating stuff, Ians answer was excellent, but i needed to add a few words too...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 7:56:00 GMT
I wondered about that, Chris. I have heard that it can be a little 'shrill' and then the E17 in the chain may be pulling that 'shrillness' down a tad.
That could be why the E17 works well with it. The Fiio's do tend to have an inclination towards warmth. I like them a lot actually but they smooth the top a bit.
I have often thought about getting an HD800 or maybe (for me) even better the HD700. It's just that I get such a lot from the K601 at an incredibly cheaper price that stops me spending that amount of money on a headphone.
You get some good speakers at that price and in my case, it would be better since I tend to have imaging problems with headphones that isn't so apparent with speakers.
With headphones, I have to really concentrate to form a good 'picture' and very often, to me, things sound like they're behind me, not in front!!
The funny thing about the really expensive set up that kind of set my target was that it was not only very accurate sounding to me (frighteningly so) but it was also heavily musical. I couldn't turn it off while I had it at home.
You could literally hear breathing and clothes rustling to the point that they actually felt as though they were physically there if my eyes were closed.
Something Alex brought up recently as well, was the extension at the top. Although our ears don't actually go beyond a certain point, there is something about having much more extreme high extension that brings in a sense of 'air' to the recording. You don't just hear high sounds, but the music contains more space, so perhaps there's also something not quite right with the 20 -20 view of FR as a norm for hi fi. I must admit, there IS something different with a very extended file in the top end. You don't just hear more cymbal or triangle or whatever. It has an effect on the feeling of space and depth in the recording.
Once you've heard that kind of sound from a hi fi set up, you don't forget it!!
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Dec 21, 2012 8:20:12 GMT
When i first got my HD800's i was a little disappointing, because they sounded too bright and bass shy. I proceeded to "run them in" and it made a small difference in establishing a very tight and very accurate bass although slightly less in quantity that i would prefer... extension is superb and the best i have heard... the quantity/amount is lacking to my ears. The metal timbre/brightness/shrillness/sibilance remained in small quantities but it was there. I proceeded to play around with amps/interconnects/dacs etc... I had contacted Frans to see if he can do a filter... (which hw designed but i never implemented, and i thank him very much for his efforts...). I didn't implement it because in the mean time, i performed the Anaxilus mod. www.innerfidelity.com/content/diy-modification-sennheiser-hd-800-anaxilus-modThis was the turning point in my enjoyment of these headphones... magically the metal timbre diminished to nearly inaudible quantities, and it may be that the bass picked up marginally, although this could be a phenomenon due to the hi-cut. These differences are minute but yet it made me use the 800's now as my main headphones. There is absolutely no comparison with ANY headphone i have heard in terms of staging... the width and the depth is absolutely phenomenal... and NO other headphone (to my knowledge) does this. I have not heard the HD700's but i doubt they are in this league of staging and musical accuracy. They are so good that the pleasure i get out of them is something like a drug... i have to get my daily fix... The rest of my rig is high quality but not the hi-end stuff, and my foobar is setup as the intructions of javier... i have two usb-spdif converters (M2Tech hiface with young drivers as per JKenny and a basic linear power supply, and musiland monitor 01 usd, with usb3 power from the pc i know not the best but i will see in the future...), 2 spdif dacs and one usb dac. It doesn't make a difference where i connect and to which amp... these headphones provide the goods... The fiio e17 is very underestimated imho... Having listened extensively to the K601's i believe that the difference between the two phones are chaotic, and since you are a sound professional and a keen hobbyist, i would most recommend them to you thoroughly (with Anaxilus mod)!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 8:25:06 GMT
I have always wondered about them ........ Funny thing is how cheap the headphones are that we use in work situations. DT150, Beyer DT770, Senns. Shameful eh?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 8:35:31 GMT
Hi Chris Did you try driving them from a 120 ohm source impedance ? Regards Alex
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Dec 21, 2012 8:38:35 GMT
A proffesional is always in another league, than the casual listener, if the professional is used to his equipment he can provide the goods.
Fancy equipment is not always necessary there.
I have formal music training and thus i am easier aware of minute stuff, at least i think i am...
In hi fidelity we tend to exaggerate sometimes, exactly because the differences are small we put the microscope on them pretending they are huge... i do this sometimes that i cannot resist...
I am amazed though at very old recordings, how near "perfect" they sound, and how newer ones sound flat and very very bright... it should be the other way round...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 8:53:23 GMT
What about an old "master"of "Fever"?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 9:01:01 GMT
A lot of care went into production. I think a lot more than today. It seems to be more of a formula based system that's prevalent today.
It's kind of 'accepted' what is supposedly correct etc so the emphasis tends to be getting the stuff out quickly and as cleanly as possible.
The odd thing is that compression had to be used in the early days in order to get the music onto vinyl without distortion (especially at the end of sides). The average volume also had to be raised so that surface noise wasn't a distraction.
Nowadays, with the extremely low noise floors available, we seem to be using more compression so that stuff sounds loud on the radio!!
The quality is there to be had as long as people brave enough to face the market will do it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 9:15:11 GMT
In my case, it has to pass the 'sit' test. If I can sit on them, they stay. I'm so forgetful, I forget where I left them!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 9:26:45 GMT
In my case, it has to pass the 'sit' test. If I can sit on them, they stay. I'm so forgetful, I forget where I left them!! How many pairs of reading glasses do you have ? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 9:33:53 GMT
In my case, it has to pass the 'sit' test. If I can sit on them, they stay. I'm so forgetful, I forget where I left them!! How many pairs of reading glasses do you have ? ;D Oh don't, Alex. Makes me feel so old ...... I have a really bad habit of sitting on my glasses. In fact, I flattened a pair yesterday and had to bend them back. I've taken to metal/wire frames so I can easily bend them back. All my glasses are wonky. Here's the really sad part. My wife is ten years younger than me and she went out and bought some stupid pieces of string that you attach to the glasses and hang them round your neck. Now I look like a grandad with glasses buffeting my big fat belly!! The shop couldn't believe that someone her age had the need for the piece of string!!
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chris1967
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Post by chris1967 on Dec 21, 2012 9:36:31 GMT
Hi Chris Did you try driving them from a 120 ohm source impedance ? Regards Alex Not 120ohm, i have tried with 200ohm thru my Superlux HA3D... The phenomenon of rounding the treble and boosting the bass with higher output impedance has become more evident since reading posts in this forum, and it has been an eye opener... although this effect is slight, and certainly doesn't transform headphones, it might make them more bearable... I might need some help to add 120ohm output to my Chinese Lehmann Black Cube linear clone... and will certainly ask when i get my alps pot, which is in the post currently... Thanks Alex!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 10:02:28 GMT
Hi Ian Want the bad news ? IF you had started out earlier with a wife your own age, although you seem to have done very well by marrying this lovely lady, you could have been a GRANDAD ! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 10:10:05 GMT
Chris Check your PMs Alex
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 10:16:31 GMT
I have always wondered about them ........ Funny thing is how cheap the headphones are that we use in work situations. DT150, Beyer DT770, Senns. Shameful eh? You can try mine if you would like to give them a go Ian. Mick.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 10:28:47 GMT
Ssssh...... I am!!!! Mick, that's very kind of you. I hate taking advantage!! There's something in me that makes me feel that taking advantage of other people just ain't fair!! I was flabberghasted when you sent brand new PS1000 out for me to try. Well, Christmas post needs to pass first. Many thanks. Chris .... The biggest problem with 120 or 100 out is that the amp MUST have a lot of power or else it can be a swings/roundabout thing. You can lose transient attacks at 120 ohms if the amp isn't up to it so that they warm up slightly but you lose a lot of impact. Mick has an amp there that will drive at 100 for sure. I wish there was an outlet for these amps. I don't know if they'll ever get out commercially but it seems to me that the CHAMP was a brilliant idea and the ability to change the impedance on the Horizon is a big selling point with it's enormous quantity of power. Once again - I got into noise issues. It's me and those valves I guess!!!! After being with the S2 for a short while now, I'm slowly being weaned back to the reliability of ss. £1,000 or so on a headphone though, is a serious outlay; especially if you find that in the long run, you don't actually like them. It's funny that with amps, I rarely find one that I really don't like. The worst for me was one of the cheap open frame ones - not Bravo but a copy. It was awful. However, with headphones - it's a completely different thing since their effect is enormous.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 10:41:38 GMT
Guess which DIY amp doesn't have such a problem.
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mrarroyo
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Post by mrarroyo on Dec 21, 2012 10:52:17 GMT
I feel amps do make a big difference and some can sound superb while other are just plain crap. Price is not always a good indicator, I have listened to some expensive amps which I felt were not that good and yet some inexpensive amps have sounded superb.
For middle of the road to upper I like the MF X-Can V2 with Mike's Little Pinkie and mods. The old Octavart O2 was also a nice sounding unit.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 11:15:02 GMT
I find more and more that it's more of a matching thing, Miguel. The weirdest thing I found was how well the Zigis Cmoy worked with a K601!!
The amp that you recommended with the HD800 is a bit tastey!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 11:28:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 12:11:21 GMT
Do you mean the Jaycar or the Bravo? I'd even pay the postage from Australia!!!
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