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Post by andy on Nov 12, 2012 10:32:15 GMT
Having had a look through the computer audio thread and having had a look elsewhere i was wondering what people used for ripping CD. I will be starting from scratch ripping cd's as I am setting up a new PC and dont really want to use iTunes for anythign other than MP3 for the car. I am thinking of using a FLAC format. The amount of time it takes to rip is not an issue, i will only do 2-3 cd's an evening anyway. I have had a look at EAC and it would appear to be a great bit of software, i cannot get it to show artwork and i cannot get it to make a new folder for each rip (quite possibly me not looking in the right place). Is there any other software that i should look at or am i using the best allready? (that should start an argument or two!) How do others work there folders in windoze for music? just have one folder with everythign in? Be interested in all your replys! Andy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 11:53:06 GMT
Andy The latest version of EAC should do what you want, although I haven't tried the artwork provisions because I don't need them. dBpoweramp is also very good at doing what you want at a fairly high speed, but isn't freeware.Some of us prefer the sound of EAC rips over dBpoweramp rips due to a better soundstage and localisation ( Less software "Jitter"?) However, if you are using Windows 7 , and want the very highest sound quality rips, I would recommend using W7 in Safe Mode with EAC in Secure Mode. The rippihg drive should be calibrated with the EAC server and the files saved as .wav files , NOT .flac. Converting files to .flac or playing them "on the fly" causes minor SQ degradation due to system electrical noise and "Jitter", although the .flac container appears to protect the files when moved or copied to other locations. (see also "The Absolute Sound" 220 and 221 from earlier this year).Wav files degrade a little when copied or moved to other locations. so it is best to save them directly to a more electrically quiet storage medium using a good Linear PSU. Yes, the quality of the Optical drive used for ripping DOES matter. I use a LG BR writer powered via a JLH PSU addon, which cleans up the switch mode power, and helps to prevent electrical noise getting back into the system during ripping.Commercial products such as the SOtM SATA filter can also be used in line with the optical device for improved results. For best playback results, a program that permits play directly from System Memory with the Windows Mixer bypassed should be used. cPlay, jPlay, XXHE and Foobar 2000 have this capability when used in conjunction with a good soundcard. Alex P.S. Despite what some "experts" will insist, not all accurate rips sound the same. I have had these claims verified by Martin Colloms in HiFiCritic Vol.6 No.1 magazine, as well as HFC Forum. Quite a few RG members have also verified this both by way of uploaded comparison .wav files, and a couple of Corsair Voyager USB memory sticks that were passed around European RG members.
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Post by andy on Nov 12, 2012 12:35:29 GMT
Hi Alex, thanks for the reply!
honestly the thought of powering the HDD and the Blu-ray drive with a linear PSU hadnt crossed my mind, though I can see that this may help.
I will try ripping a flac and a wav and see if I can hear a difference, though youngish im sure my hearing has suffered from a few years of working in a concert venue with quite high SPL.
I guess that 'electrically quiet storage medium' would be a HDD over SSD? I take it SSD isnt all that for audio?
Once recorded i could load each album into ram and playback from there when listening.
Andy
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Post by andy on Nov 12, 2012 13:59:26 GMT
Right, I now have ripped the same album 3 times: flac Wav Wav in safe mode
will try and listen this evening.
A
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 20:45:18 GMT
Right, I now have ripped the same album 3 times: flac Wav Wav in safe mode will try and listen this evening. A Andy Whether you hear any differences or not will also come down to the resolution of the rest of your system.Some of us are using gear like Class A headphone amplifiers and very revealing DACs.It will also depend on the quality of your optical drive. Quite a few of us are using LG BluRay , or even Plextor BluRay drives for ripping, and in many cases, they and the HDDs used for storage also have expensive anti vibration 3M 2552 aluminium self adhesive tape stuck on them.Incidentally, RG member "Erin" who is a tech.from Melbourne Au. originally posted in DIYAudio about the improvements due to ripping in Safe Mode. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 20:53:35 GMT
The jury is out on that one. Earlier SSDs had internal "supercaps" that caused some noise problems.I would expect similar performance from HDD and recent SSD if they have decent power supplies. For my highest quality material, I rip directly to Corsair Voyager GT memory sticks powered by a very quiet Linear PSU. Even without the +5V Linear PSU, USB memory sticks have the advantage of being electrically quieter, in part due to their lower current requirements and having an internal 3.3V voltage regulator.
Even using a DIY Capacitance-Inductance-Capacitance filter in line with the device can gain worthwhile improvements in SQ. Some people use SOtM SATA filters in their servers etc. for this reason. SOtM fan filters are also reported to improve matters as they greatly reduce the electrical noise caused by PWM control of fan speed from the motherboard.
Alex
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 12, 2012 21:20:18 GMT
I'm not saying a thing !!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 21:23:50 GMT
I'm not saying a thing !! Cat got your tongue ? ;D If you believe what I have said is BS, then feel free to say so.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 12, 2012 22:28:16 GMT
Alex.
No – not BS - I simply remain to be convinced.
Andy should allowed to have an objective listen without being swayed by your conviction.
To rip CDs to the quality you recommend involves buying a Blueray drive, JLH PSU and potentially and SOtM SATA Filter. Then some anti vibration kit and separate power supply for the USB stick you are ripping to. This is all a serious investment. It would be a disappointment to commit to it and then find you system did not have the ‘resolution’ to hear the promised improvement; given the quality of some of the kit available at a reasonable price it would suggest the difference is very small.
I am a great believer in CPlay, dedicated Windows installations and PSU refinements (a battery powered laptop being a good solution as a dual boot allows it to be used for other things) because the improvements are very worthwhile for playback. I have spend quite a bit of time (and money to some extent) trying to replicate your results but I remain of the view that concentrating on playback is a better use of (and this is very much a hobby to me) my resources.
I say all of this without reference to whether the files degrade on transfer or are different or checksums matter etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 22:52:21 GMT
G.I. = G.O. No matter how good the playback system.
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Post by andy on Nov 13, 2012 11:54:43 GMT
Alex, freddy,
don’t worry, I know that there is nearly a limitless amount of buggering about that you can do to 'improve' the sound quality. I am also a firm believer that anything you add influences the sound that is reproduced. I was once a student in Bristol and did some work in the same sound studio as Massive Attack. Listening to their own music in the studio it was recorded in was very interesting, it sounded so different from the cd I had at home! Even recording artists don’t have much of a say in the sound of the final format. Unfortunately I didn’t have enough time to do a better comparison! I like listening to music as I like music. I have downloaded very high res music and deleted it as it had no interest to me, likewise I have some 78LP’s that are scratched to buggery and I still enjoy listening to them. Most of my music gets listened to in the car as well as through various pairs of headphones.
Freddy, your right, I doubt my equipment is up to the standards of Alex’s, but, put crap in, get crap out. If when ripping I can isolate some noise just by ripping in safe mode on a laptop powered by a battery then it costs me nothing and means that the final recording may be 1% cleaner. Oh and though my equipment may not be top notch right now, it could well be in the future and ripping is such a pain in the arse I wouldn’t want to do it twice!! Everything in this hobby/way of life is subjective! So for your information: Ripping will mainly be done on a Dell M4300 laptop running win7 in safe mode using a Dell Dvd rw. I will probably be creating uncompressed wav files using EAC. Listening will be from a dell desktop pc through usb to a Teac UD-H01 DAC. Im finding its built in amp pretty good at the moment but may get my GS solo involved at some stage. I am going to use XMBC as playback software as I want to link this to several different rooms. Mains for the DAC and amp is filtered through a BT filter (same as Pinky has played with). Mains for the desktop pc will come from two SM power supplies, one for the motherboard and the other for HDD and extras. This power will be filtered from the mails through a Roxburgh mains filter I have. The ring main the desktop will be on only has hi-fi on it so it is a little cleaner. Headphones, well anything form my audio technica W1000 to HD600’s I am more than happy to play about a bit with software/ hardware but im in this for the fun and im going to keep it that way! Andy
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Post by andy on Nov 13, 2012 12:12:29 GMT
quick update, will not be using the BT conditioner as it hums when powered on, I tend to listen in bed and to have that under the bed would keep me awake.
I will be connecting the desktop and the DAC with an active USB cable, needed due to the distance from one to the other.
more safemode wavs versus flacs today!
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 13, 2012 12:40:48 GMT
Andy.
Sounds good. I have my amp & DAC through a BT conditioner as well. BT's are very good (and cheap) kit.
Have look at CPlay (http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/). I added a small (2 GB) partition to my laptop (with dual boot) and setup a very slim Win XP installation with CPlay & CMP. I then removed all the unnecessary crap (network, video etc) as per the forum's advice. I did all of this on an IBM T60 with internal CD/DVD drive. CPlay is free but there was a good 6 hours of work doing it - oddly the partition can then be moved across laptops with minimal further work.
Cplay allows you to integrate EAC. As such I could rip from a CD using this minimal install and the laptop running off the battery. In summary I didn't notice any difference with the rips and did a bit by bit comparison and found then they were same as those ripped on my (fully loaded and software messy) desktop PC.
On playback however the T60 laptop is leaps ahead and I noticed a big difference simply pulling the power plug. The difference was enough that I bought an old laptop and now have a dedicated setup running off batteries for serious listening.
I was left with the view that if there was such a difference when listening there should have been some difference when ripping if the same principles were at play.
There are plenty of threads discussing whether CD ripping quality can change with file transfers and checksums. I've spent too long with computers to accept that it can without good evidence. I did however spend time trying it for my own piece of mind (my logic was the same as yours given I don't want to rip CDs twice) but I have not be able to replicate Alex's results. I do however agree entirely with Alex that PSU quality and windows setup is very important to playback quality and if you have limited time & resources (as I have) I would spend it on that. If you get a chance to setup your Dell with a small partition and CPlay you will not regret it.
Cheers, Adrian.
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 13, 2012 12:44:57 GMT
Andy.
It is important to use WAVs. I don't see this as a rip quality issue but that the conversion from FLACs for playback will change the load on the CPU and could therefore effect quality.
CPlay is much happier with WAVs.
Cheers
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Post by andy on Nov 13, 2012 12:59:12 GMT
Adrian, yes i have noticed that with my trial system (old gear) flac's made the system stutter a load, wav's run a lot better. I have been using a samsung Q1 as a trial system, not much power there but may run cplay well if the spec is up to it! Andy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 20:57:25 GMT
Andy The point here is that SQ lost at the ripping stage can NOT be recovered at the playback stage. Contrast this with the extent that many RG members are prepared to go to in the DIY section of the forum, in order to achieve the very highest possible SQ from the various posted projects.Many of these projects result in amplifiers,DACs etc. that will easily outperform much more expensive commercial designed gear.A glance at the Amanaro thread alone will reveal the extent that many go to, with replacing even SOA low noise voltage regulators with "Super Regulators"of various types to supply squeaky clean power to the Xtal Oscillators and the main area. You will also see from my signature where I quote award winning Recording Engineer Cookie Marenco, that cPlay is not to blame for loss of SQ with .flac playback. It also happens with Media Players such as the WD TV Live etc. It's the conversion "on the fly" that causes these problems. Did you also read Martin Colloms report in HiFiCritic Vol.6 No.1 about my wav file rips that were put to the test at 6 different listening sessions using Blind A/B/A 3 minute sessions? If you haven't, I can email you a copy along with the discussion links in HFC Forum.
It is clear from that statement that Adrian refuses to accept the report from Martin Colloms,even though there were the 6 separate listening sessions using Blind A/B/A/ 3 minute , and despite the large numbers of confirming reports by RG members including our resident Professor of Music, and DAC designer John Kenny. I also find it interesting that many of my posted projects, in the DIY area of RG, some costing many 100s of dollars to construct,have confirmed many times over my subjective findings, yet when it comes to reporting subjective differences where digital is involved, I have no credibility whatsoever with a small minority of members.
Regards Alex
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Post by andy on Nov 13, 2012 22:06:44 GMT
Alex,
Yes I totally agree, if you didn't record it you will never have it, if your rip isn't good you cannot make it better!
I would like you to email me the article, allways interested in these things, will pm you my email address.
I, like many find it hard to understand how a stream of 0's and 1's can be affected by the cable it runs through, or the device it is stored on, but I'm sure that an explanation will arrive sooner or later. And when it does I'm sure it will be as contraversial as using a high quality mains cable can be still!!
I guess e outcome of this project for me is to have all my music in one place so I can actually get to it! With 800cd's and 500 LP's things can take some finding! Once I have the pc that I will be using it would be good to receive your advice on what to tweak, though as allways budget has to come into it, with a young family this really is a when time and cash allows project for me at the moment.
Must admit that listening to wav files things sound much smoother than the CD player I was using before!
Regards Andy
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 13, 2012 22:42:24 GMT
Alex.
I won't repeat points already made in other threads.
I agree that playback benefits greatly from improvements etc in PSU quality. I have been able to easily demonstrate this myself. I understand entirely why other members of the forum would want to press this point as far as possible particularly given that batteries work so well. I read those threads with great interest and if I had the time and knowledge I would be taking part. I can also easily see that FLACs may sound worse than WAVs - a matter of CPU loading.
I have not however found improvements (or changes) with rips despite the fact that I have used the equipment which showed great variations in playback. I would have expected my tests to have shown some variations. I am also mindful that I am reasonably knowledgeable about PCs so feel confident that my tests were realistic.
It maybe that differences in ripping quality exist. The point for me is that I have been unable to replicate them. I haven't found that I have lost any sound quality at the ripping stage and so (for the time being) I have decided I would not the matter further. I am satisfied the garbage in (in my case) is as good as I can get. Andy may wish to investigate himself but I was pointing out to him that my experience was to spend any time and money elsewhere. Surely that's what the forum is for.
I have read the article you sent me a few months back. I have reread it now. Martin used the rips you sent him and I assume he was able to verify the contents etc and thus I see no reason to doubt his results. I also would also not doubt the opinion of other experienced & respected people who believe identical digital data files can sound different and that the difference is due to how they were stored and/or ripped. I have not however been able to replicate their results. If this is because my kit is not good enough or that I don't understand what is going on then so be it. Overall I have limited time and other hobbies and I have spent a lot on my DAC & amp and know I can't afford the next step.
I do wonder how many times a CDs contents are copied, emailed, transferred etc before the CD is stamped. Given also that recordings are layered and mixed, just how many times has the data been read and reread before it gets anywhere near our CD readers. Does all this make a difference ?.
Finally I am not questioning your credibility at all. I am simple stating that I have not found there to be a difference and that if I was Andy I would not spend too much time on it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 9:29:18 GMT
Adrian Have you also seen "The Absolute Sound" 220 and 221 - Computer Music Audio Quality, Part 3 "Is flac a fraud ?"
Alex
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Post by freddypipsqueek on Nov 14, 2012 11:43:49 GMT
No. Did a quick search on the Interweb and found the following thread which it prompted. www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=101549I think it covers the points made and I find the comments about different playback software interesting. WAVs do sound different to FLACs but I have found no difference from the original after converting FLACs back to WAVs. I tested this at length to see if I needed to redo the earlier FLAC rips I did before using CPlay). The following is quoted from the article (I assume correctly) "To answer our own question, we do not believe FLAC compression is fraudulent in the sense that it is not truly a lossless format, but we do believe that for reasons yet to be fully explained, use of FLAC compression can be associated with very significant sonic compromises." Now that's careful wording by a good lawyer; probably the same one who advised the "X Files" !! I love the word "associated". The use of FLAC files can also be associated with people who eat cashew nuts, read Lee Child novels, and are called Adrian. There's at least one of them I'm sure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 21:04:46 GMT
Adrian I will PM you the DL links to the articles. Note also the similarity to some of the things that I have been saying for quite some time now. It's not just about .flac. There is also an interesting subjective ranking of the various software players, and no prizes for guessing where cPlay came. Alex
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Post by andy on Nov 29, 2012 9:55:05 GMT
Just to update where i now am with all this.
Eventually got hold of the pc Im using yesterday, a quick dust off and rebuild and ready to go! Formatted and put win7 on, added some RAM and a bluray drive!
Loaded EAC and got the subscription for artwork etc and im ripping like mad! Everything appears to be working well.
Quite relived to get this far without too many issues!] Andy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2012 9:58:17 GMT
Hi Andy That should keep you out of trouble for a while! Kind Regards Alex
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Post by andy on Nov 29, 2012 10:31:24 GMT
rough calculation 173 hours worth of ripping i think, and thats just the cd's Shame you cant rip vinyl at 100rpm! Andy
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Post by andy on Dec 1, 2012 20:08:25 GMT
Well, so far so good. Eac is rather slow, between 12 mins and 32 for a cd! This may take longer than expected.
Thankfully I can take the pc into work and feed it discs as I work. That should help a lot.
Anyone got any ideas to help?
Andy
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