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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 20:23:16 GMT
Whoops, sorry Marc. I thought you were in the UK because your English is so good. I just assumed you were British ... sorry!! I had a fight with the K701 for a long time. There were things I loved about it, but ultimately, the lack of real, fruity bass just got to me so I tried a K601 in a last gasp attempt at like at least one AKG. Up until then, I hadn't found one AKG I liked except for that closed portable thing they made a few years back now. I couldn't understand USA studio people using AKG's tbh. The 601 gave me a surprise. It had some of the K701 lingering but a warmer feel and it has stayed with me. Every time I go back to K701, 30 minutes later I have to get off and use something else. I use the K601 as my 'flat' reference. In my 701 battle, the best amp I used with it was the Panda. However, I went right off it when I tried the HD650 on the Panda and realised I had a hum problem and the K701 couldn't detect it. It was then that I realised something is really wrong in the bass. Something is missing and then I also started to detect a 'ring' in the treble, which Frans confirmed by checking an FR graph and possibly spotted what I was hearing. The hum problem was around on other Pandas too. I never had a fix for it. It's too heavy to ship out for a repair!!! The Panda has a warm edge to it that matches the K701 rather well. However, with something inherently warm, like the K550, it will give you that extra warmth with ease whereas the K701 will refuse to even acknowledge it!! The K701 seems to be blind to certain frequencies in the bass. That could be what you're detecting with the K550. Have you got any other amps or a portable to try with it? I would say a warm amp isn't suited to the K550. The Neco Bosfet is good with it. The Horizon is big and fat with it!!!! Actually, the Neco portable is also good with it and that's just a CMoy. It may be worth trying another amp with it - it could clean it up for you and bring the treble thrill back. It'll never be a K701 though. The 'batch' thing may well be the case since you are in Belgium. There was an early version of the Beyer dt1350 which was altered quietly on the second version in that people were complaining about the tight headband. Beyer quietly loosened it and that affected its frequency response. Early versions relax with the pads close together and later versions relax with the pads further apart. I wonder about the AKG's because there is a lack of them in the UK and the shop I was in were saying they were hard to get. Or maybe it's that Belgian air?
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Post by gommer on Jun 9, 2012 20:52:42 GMT
Hey Ian, I'll keep the HA thing in mind, or I might make my own C'moy one day.
BTW, when you mentioned my taste of music, did you know the one-off Galliano-Portal coöperation?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 20:55:55 GMT
No - not at all Marc..... No idea.
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Post by elysion on Jun 9, 2012 21:38:26 GMT
Ian, have you tried the Bossfet with the HD650's. You don't know the HD650's unless you plug them into a Neco Mosfet/Bossfet (V2/V2.1). AD8610 opamps are strongly recommended though.
Concerning the different results from you and Marc, we shoud also take into account that the amp armory of Marc is quite limited in comparison to yours. Marc simply had less choices and probably the break in (if it really did happen) was more noticeably on his amp. Our hearing isn't equal also. Perphaps that's the reason why some believe in break in and some not. I've had more that a pair of 'phones and more than once amp that gave me the impression of "break in". But some did not or only slightly. Sometimes, I guess it's also about perception when getting into a new sound signature.
It's hard to tell what is really going on in your heads.
At the moment, I'm at home with a big glass of very good red wine in front of me. I've had a very interesting day at a meeting and the meeting continues tomorrow. With a bit red wine, everything is slightly altered. Not much, but it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 11:33:45 GMT
Hi Christian, Yes, sometimes even I don't know what's going on in my head either!! In fact, I do think I hover on the edge of madness sometimes. It helps in my work a great deal, but you don't make too many friends!!! I really like the Bosfet a lot. It has a slightly more etched sound in comparison to the Horizon and doesn't offer as much 'perceived' whack in the bass. However, it does tend to clean up headphones that are prone to 'lumpiness' in the bass. It's also built beautifully. I was lucky in that someone here on RG was selling it with a Little Pinkie supply. (I love the Little Pinkies to death) I forget who sold it to me as well!! I don't have 8610 in there but something a little more 'organic' and it is very nice. I really can't remember what op amp it has. I'm so aware of the 8610/20 sound that it's kind of 'spotable' for me. They are very good op amps but I've always found them slightly top orientated although they are a really good choice for portables, I know. According to the evil twin, there are no differences anyway!! I have tried it with everything I have and it is really nice with most things I put on it. It's very quiet as well. No noises/hisses/buzzes etc. Even with very low impedance headphones. The noise thing seems to be becoming more and more important with all of these low impedance high quality headphones that are appearing. The more sensitive they are, the more prone they can be to noise issues and the D2000 and K550 are indeed, very sensitive as well as revealing so there could be potential problems with noise on them. The only thing I feel with the Bosfet and it's probably because the Horizon delivers power with abundance, but to me, it feels quite low powered. I don't know what gain mine is set at but it's way below the Horizon which is a truly gorgeous and powerful amp. The thing about break in etc., could be due to a different batch Christian. I believe Marc totally. I just didn't get anything like with mine. (Or someone has had a crafty listen previously on mine?) Out of the box, mine felt like a quality headphone straight away. The way we both approached these headphones was slightly different though. Marc was coming from a K701 which is (to me) positively mean sounding in comparison. That's not to say it's a poor headphone - just not for me but obviously Marc really likes the K701. It has some great things about it too. For me, I had been curious a little while back about the K550 and Frans pm'd what he'd found out about it to me with a rather good description of how it would possibly sound. He felt that I would like its sound signature given that I am quite keen on the K601 but would like a touch more bottom end..... but not as much as the D2000. So Christian was tuned in to K701 and I was expecting a light sounding headphone like the K601 with perhaps less bass than I'd like. I was coming from the hefty whack of the D2000. Marc had that initial feeling that it was thin and then felt that it rounded off but now lacks in the top. In my case, I got a pleasant surprise - the bass. When the bass is in there, it kicks off really quite well in the K550 but when not present, it doesn't seem to add a resonance. (Like in mens' voices) I wasn't expecting a big bass if I'm honest and was quite prepared to give them away, but that bass grabbed me straight away because it is less than the D2000 in quantity but more than K601 but it retains the K601 characteristics at the top which is what I think Marc is referring to when he says 'lacks excitement'. Many people have said that about the K601 in the past. Now he's right there - I find the K701 too etched out and the K550 doesn't etch it all out for you like that. But then, I like that about it. Also, I think because I have tried so many headphones over the years, I think I adapt to new sounds quickly and my head adjusts for the shortcomings of them all. I'm aware of them but tend to focus more on the 'longcomings' so that I can work out what's the best amp and type of music for them. Another one I use that I do actually like is the ATH a900. It doesn't go deep into the bass but is nice for delicate music or speech - as in plays. It's one of the most comfortable headphones I have and isolates you as well so each headphone does a job for me I guess. Hopefully soon, I'll be trying out a DT1350 as well so that's going to be interesting. For now though - the K550 is my favourite closed headphone.
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Post by gommer on Jun 10, 2012 12:15:36 GMT
Hah, there you say it, closed headphone. From all the descriptions you and Frans gave about various headphones, I'm confident that not one would suit me. Over time I've grown to trust what you and Frans say and I know you're more of a bass head than I am, so keeping that in mind, the D2000 was no option for me. Therefore, I do think that the K550 is also my holy grail.
The best open can is no use to me at times when it upsets everyone around me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 13:31:13 GMT
Hah, there you say it, closed headphone. From all the descriptions you and Frans gave about various headphones, I'm confident that not one would suit me. Over time I've grown to trust what you and Frans say and I know you're more of a bass head than I am, so keeping that in mind, the D2000 was no option for me. Therefore, I do think that the K550 is also my holy grail. The best open can is no use to me at times when it upsets everyone around me. I change headphones like underpants, Marc!! I don't rely on one particular headphone to do everything. I don't think they can. For me, the best open headphone is possibly the K601. But not for everything, but it's probably one of the flattest. D2000 is a fine headphone with a bass that is quite large. I agree, I don't think you'd particularly care for it. However, there seem to be more problems finding something closed that is as good as an open headphone, really. The K550 isn't a 'neutral' headphone and it does actually point out aggressiveness in poor mp3's quite badly. I was listening to some mp3 stuff today and the K550 sounded quite 'harsh'. In fact, I changed over to a CD to check that it was OK. So it does actually reveal problems in the top end. It'll be interesting to see how it compares with a DT1350 I think. For me, I think I prefer a slight 'u' shaped curve in a headphone. In a closed headphone, it's tricky because if the mids get sucked out, they kind of feel odd on your head whereas an open headphone seems to have more 'give' in the way that they present mids. I would say the K550 is kind of in between a D2000 and a K601 in terms of tonal quality. You do have to keep the cups still though or else you do become aware of some kind of a closed 'colouration' in there. However, you get that with most closed headphones. I try to be as honest in my descriptions as I can, but with these things, not only are our ears different, but so are our tastes in what we hear and like. Frans is really good at reading data and he can basically match your tastes if he knows them with what they sound like in comparison. Quite amazing actually and since he knew that I like the K601 but craved more in the bottom end, he thought I would like the K550. Also, I think many people don't really know what kind of sound they like until they actually hear it. The D2000 proved to me how important the bottom end is to me and also the quality of the bottom end. With that missing, I kind of lose interest in the headphone but that's just me and also the fact that live stuff is normally big and bassy anyway. I know that it never sounds like a K701 when I play live!! If it did, I think we'd need tin drums. Headphones are quite a compromise and very difficult to get right given the varying tastes and shapes of ears since there is nothing else to influence what you hear like room reflections. With speakers, you can (kind of) tune them with positioning (up to a point) but headphones need to be right for your ears. However, it's interesting that I got quite a harsh sound from some mp3 stuff which made me think of your opening description before burn in. The K550 does have the potential to grate on poor stuff. Do you mean by 'holy grail' that you think it's right for you? I hope it is because they are quite serious money and I'm always aware that people might buy something just because of what I write. That makes me be slightly careful with what I say actually. I'd hate to be the cause of someone making an expensive mistake. I think everyone on here writes in earnest and the 'safest' route is to do what Frans does - describe the sound according to what the data says and then leave it to you to decide whether you'd like that type of sound. My writing is about my hearing and gear and then again, it also depends on what you're listening to. I have 7 headphones that I regularly use for different things and not one does it all. Unfortunately, I think many people aren't able to do that and so their choice of headphone becomes extremely important to them. I tend to get a headphone and decide what it could best be used for rather than rely on it to present all of my music, I guess. I also realise that we are not all able to be in that situation, so I hope I'm not misleading you.
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Post by gommer on Jun 10, 2012 13:50:49 GMT
The K550 definitely is right for me, for a closed headphone. I can't have bought it because of what you said about it though, 'cause i had it in house a few days before you. I actually bought because of what Frans said about the K550 and what you said about the D2000. It was an educated guess/gamble really. But because of what you said, I do consider another HA now. I'll keep the Panda for the K701 too.
I'm a bit worried now about my to-be repaired DAC though. It's a non-oversampling DAC without ouput filter (horror for some) and it probably distorts in a tube-like sort of way, meaning it leans towards the warm end.
Oh well. Rome wasn't build in one day and I'm only halfway through life (I hope). So there's time for improvement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 14:06:00 GMT
These comparative graphs can be helpful: www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID%5B0%5D=2881&graphID%5B1%5D=703&graphID%5B2%5D=3571&graphID%5B3%5D=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+HeadphonesInterestingly, the K550 is showing more, deeper bass than the other two. The K701 doesn't have that dip at around 5 - 7 Khz. The D2000 and K550 have a similar dip and that's normally put there because peoples' ear canals have a resonant frequency at around that frequency. The Denon has a suck out at about 2.5Khz on the graph and that could be the 'darker' tone that I feel with it in comparison to the K550 which feels more open to me. By cutting it, it sounds smoother to our poor ears but the K701 doesn't have it which may account for many reports concerning its top end. The K701 bass rolls off quite a bit earlier and the 550 is showing a hump in the low bass. However, as you can see, the D2000 and the K550 are kind of similar and the K701 is very different. That's perhaps why I instantly connected with the K550 sound. I felt that the Panda was best with the K701 actually so you have a good combo there. I think it's the use of FET's that creates warmth in the Panda that helps the K701.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 10, 2012 17:26:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 18:07:55 GMT
The clamping force has been reduced on the K550 but this feels like a negative thing as it makes the cup cushions difficult to press in the right areas and get a good seal for the isolation. This is one of the factors that affects the issue with the lack of bass.
That is where I feel is the cause of the wide variation of opinions on this headphone so far. Interestingly, the reviewer brought the M50 into the picture. I also use them and they are not really what I'd term a 'revealing' headphone. They are pretty hefty in the bass and sound curtailed in the treble as well, so I don't feel that they are in the same league if I'm honest. I would have thought the Denon D2000 is more in line with it.
The K550's are not tight and the fit would affect the bass big time. Also, if you have a lot of hair under the cushions, this may cause a poor seal because of the pleather. Maybe velour would have been better?
The cups are very large and go back quite a way and I wonder if that is the cause of poor bass, with the pads going over the bone behind your ears?
This is a funny headphone in that reviews are all over the place with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 18:47:56 GMT
Something to add to the comparison graphs Ian mentioned in post #33.
At headroom they 'compensate' the graphs according to their beliefs (Tyll also shows raw graphs) so in order to get a feel of how a graph sounds 'realistic' in a more speaker like way you have to draw an imaginary line across the screen. On the left side (10Hz) start drawing that line at +5dB of the dB scale. The other side of the line (20kHz) is drawn at -5dB of the scale so sloping downwards and crossing the 0dB line at around 500Hz. One would expect this 'flat' line to be the horizontal (0 dB line) and for some it may well be so.
The headphone that stays closest to this line (at THIS website on THESE graphs) can be considered to sound the most realistic.
It doesn't tell the whole picture though as resonances and 'step' or 'impulse' behaviour is also a factor very important to the perceived SQ and cannot be seen in the FR (frequency Response) graphs.
Needless to say most 'top' pick headphones do one or even most things very good but this is not the same for everyone because of taste or what one feels is reference (listened to a lot for a long time).
The more different headphones you heard for a certain minimal amount of time to form a real opinion (the more experience one has the shorter this time) the easier it gets to spot weaknesses and strenghts in headphones.
Some will like the K550, some won't.
That's what Ian means about recommending and feeling sortof guilty if people buy stuff on his recommendation/findings only to find out later it wasn't what THEY was looking for and certainly with expensive headphones this can be a costly mistake.
It's the same with the DT1350 which I cannot recommend to anyone simply because of the price and it's intended purpose (monitor for sound engineers). They simply are NOT hifi phones, they are tools that in the hands of people who know what these headphones need to reveal and do reveal, might very well appreciate for WHAT they do right, but Hifi listeners most likely will NOT prefer. They will probably call it bass shy or lacking musicality or uninvolving but that's simply because it is not their purpose. They are designed to show flaws in recordings and when recordings are crappy (believe me there are FAR more crappy recordings in existence than good ones) they will thus sound crappy in a lot of cases. It will be blamed on the headphone or amp or even source though.
The DT990, HD650 for instance makes a LOT of music sound 'good' but monitors will reveal flaws. Both will sound GOOD on excellent recordings but the DT990 will sound better with less quality recordings.
The K550, just like D2000/D5000/D7000 IMO is a headphone that is a good 'compromise' between hifi and analytic headphone that you either appreciate or not based on experience and taste.
Whenever possible audition the headphone or buy in internet stores where you can return the goods within a certain time frame and get a full refund (minus shipping). This time frame should be enough to determine if you like them or not.
When your personal findings of headphones you know very well (own) match those of certain reviewers you could also buy a headphone based on their descriptions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 19:11:17 GMT
That's about it, Frans. It is an excellent compromise between working headphones and indulgent headphones.
The Sony 7506 and V6 are analytical and their FR is restricted. I like that about them, but for most listening, it points out problems very painfully so I need something more 'musical' that (if you like, covers the flaws' while it gives me the detail that I want. The Queen's Jubilee concert was unbelievably good on them but from a more technical viewpoint for me, rather than simply the music.
The DT150's are smooth and rounded which flatters the musicians who hear playback on them; especially at life volume, so equally, that's not really right for me at home.
The K550 is kind of between the two. Rounded and also a nice amount of detail so for me, it's a great relaxing headphone.
I really do think that its sound could split AKG fans but my own findings don't completely line up with that review. I've been finding the bass pretty crisp and it's nowhere near the toppiness of the K701. More K601 like actually.
On those graphs, the square wave responses are interesting too.
That review touches on the fit that I mentioned. He said pushing the cups helped which suggests there could be fit problems for some. It's quite easy to think they are on nice and tight when in fact there is a tiny gap at the back. The bass can give that away. It also makes them sound a bit honky. If you lift them slightly while playing, you'll get this 'honk' from them that isn't too nice.
I do think that it's better to hear these before buying them though. They are too expensive and could end up being many peoples' only headphone.
I also think they will split people in a similar way to the K701.
I regularly use 7 or 8 headphones - not just the K550. I just thought, I also need to say I'm using 120 ohms output impedance on the amp which seems to work well with the K550 as it does on the K701. That could be very slightly mellowing the top end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 20:01:51 GMT
Dale - I forgot about your post and meant to answer. I think this guy may have a problem with the fit. My 550 has deep, hard hitting bass with more openness than the D2000 although imo the treble is perhaps less refined than the Denon. It's quite funny that I have this thing about closed headphones not being as good as open since they introduce a new set of problems, but the 550 is one of the most open (closed) headphones I've heard. I'm really chuffed with them. Also, here in the UK, although 'What Hifi' is a big seller, it's not really what we regard as a hi fi mag really. They get stuck into TV's radios etc and not always the best of reviewers. Interesting to read but may not always be the most accurate. I found it funny that he stuck the K550 onto the end of mobile phones for instance!!. I don't think people will go around the streets with this on their heads!! Just a bit inappropriate really and irrelevant to most hi fi people who wouldn't dream of doing that!! I also imagine that a 'phone would run out of steam for something like these with their full, fruity bass. I'm enjoying them a great deal.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 27, 2012 0:43:43 GMT
I should think the 550 would be a marginal fit on only a small percentage of heads. If I can get ahold of a 550 I think it will be marvelous, and worst case be amenable to a brightness mod.
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funk1969
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Post by funk1969 on Jun 27, 2012 9:59:56 GMT
Hmmm...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 11:05:20 GMT
I should think the 550 would be a marginal fit on only a small percentage of heads. If I can get ahold of a 550 I think it will be marvelous, and worst case be amenable to a brightness mod. Again, I'd be interested in what you felt about them. For me, one of my best closed headphones for listening to music at home and quite honestly, they are selling in the UK at £180 which is a great price for them. The weirdest thing about them is how they kind of resemble an 'open' headphone in sound. The difference in perceived bass has me puzzled actually, with reports of heavy bass to no bass. You'd think they all had a different headphone since there's not a lot of agreement at the moment for some reason. I can only think that it's a 'fit' issue - maybe different sized heads with the enormous pads or maybe people (long) hair breaking the seal? For me, there's plenty of weight there but I do like their openness. If anything, I'd say perhaps the treble isn't as 'refined' soundning as the D2000. (Which exhibits a much thicker sound) I have my amp set at 120 ohms output impedance but I'm not exactly sure how the K550 would react to this. With many headphones, it has the effect of taking a fraction of the top sting out (although the D2000 doesn't change that much) With most amps at low output impedance, things may 'zing' up a bit but I find 120 ohms a good 'calmer' on most funnily enough. It's not a massive change anyway. I'm using a Horizon amp mostly which allows an output impedance change and has enough power to drive through 120 ohms out without blinking!! In fact, the K601 is brilliant through it set that way, so I figured the K550 would react the same way. (Which I think it does) It's hard to tell since you have to stop to change the impedance. I also found it strange how relatively little notice has been taken of a new headphone from AKG given their reputation with the K701. Also, quite funny how UK retailers are cutting its price already. They did that with the K601 which I really think is a bargain in the UK at around £140. I guess it lives in the shadow of the K701. However, I prefer it!
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 27, 2012 11:16:34 GMT
The Shure 940 is another headphone that has a near-open type of sound, but needs a brightness mod even more than the 1440. With that mod the 940 bass would also improve, but some of the openness might go away. Changing things sometimes changes more than what you want.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 11:56:14 GMT
Not half!!!
It's surprising how a headphone can change 'overall' sound by changing just one aspect of it.
Frans made a filter for me to fit the Superlux HD681. The difference to the overall sound is night and day. Without it, it sounds fine at first but then you start to get the glare in the top. Put the filter on and it suddenly sounds like a headphone that costs a lot more than it does. In fact, I think Superlux should fit them internally - they'd make a killing at that price!!!
The Sony MDR7506 is another one. I don't mind its brashness and lack of extension at both ends if I'm using it to listen to technicalities. Funny thing is, EQ some of the top down and it becomes a bass monster!!
I'm always loathe to use EQ though since cheap EQ devices are nasty and add more nasties than it's worth imo. Funny thing was, this kind of thing was happening in the 70's where USA hi fi people were into tone controls and big speakers while UK people were into NO tone control and shelf speakers!!
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 27, 2012 21:48:50 GMT
Well said. Given the prices and availability of headphones, simple EQ or no EQ makes the most sense to me. Now if you asked me when I was a starving student, I'd jump on that EQ with both feet. Ironically, the EQ in the Stone Age required this big expensive desktop box.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2012 7:47:17 GMT
I never thought of it that way, Dale. People pushed for cash could make something cheaper seem better I guess.
I've become too much of a purist!!!
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Post by donunus on Sept 1, 2012 15:06:21 GMT
Any K501 fans here that has heard the k550? I would like to read some comments from those people if possible. Marroyo maybe?
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Post by dalethorn on Sept 2, 2012 4:17:26 GMT
I never thought of it that way, Dale. People pushed for cash could make something cheaper seem better I guess. I've become too much of a purist!!! We do need to maintain our purist sensibilities, even when we stray far from The Truth and buy those off-brand items. If we gave up all of our drive for perfection, we could end up in Dr. Dre's sandbox humming tunes about how we love Big Brother.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 4:51:40 GMT
Or at church on Sunday, singing hymns to Steve Jobs ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 6:17:23 GMT
I never thought of it that way, Dale. People pushed for cash could make something cheaper seem better I guess. I've become too much of a purist!!! We do need to maintain our purist sensibilities, even when we stray far from The Truth and buy those off-brand items. If we gave up all of our drive for perfection, we could end up in Dr. Dre's sandbox humming tunes about how we love Big Brother. Gawd, there are some jaded old baskets on here!! ;D I have the K601 Donunus. It's kind of similar with an added rubber band type bass attack and perhaps a slightly more steely treble. I like the K601 quite a lot for it's seeming flatness. (Not all genres suit it though) The K550 is a little more dynamic sounding. I think some unknowingly have problems with the seal. (behind the ears) This because the pads are very large. That's why I think there are reports of no bass. The bass isn't huge but it's most definitely there.
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