XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 4, 2012 2:17:11 GMT
Since your are obviously the expert, may I also ask what Thunderbolt is all about in the HDD interface environment? The local hifi nuts are going crazy over this for their AV servers.
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 4, 2012 3:02:26 GMT
My experience with Toshiba drives goes back about 15 years - first with PCMCIA drives, Toshiba laptops with HDD's, then eventually the external pocket drives (Canvio etc.). I've had many, and use them extensively, and none ever failed. For desktop computers the only desktops I've had are the corporate Dell's with their internal drives, and I'm on my third one in 10 years (no failures) replacing/upgrading every few years. These Dells are on 24/7 for years at a time and I've never had a problem.
When I buy a new HDD, I will select one based on my perception of the manufacturer plus the apparent quality of the drive. Then, since my moment-to-moment backups onto 128 gb thumb drives take care of the daily chores, then with 3 external HDD's in rotation, I don't worry about losing anything.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 4, 2012 8:50:10 GMT
Since your are obviously the expert, may I also ask what Thunderbolt is all about in the HDD interface environment? The local hifi nuts are going crazy over this for their AV servers. Thunderbolt is still a relatively new interface. Apple had the opportunity to introduce Thunderbolt first. Intel probably needed an environment to test the interface before the big roll-out and the Apple universe (which is still a niche) was appropriate for that. Apple is also one of intel's premium customers. They get new things first. Apple is (notoriously) known for introducing new interfaces (FireWire, Apple Display Port which is a combo of DVI+USB, Mini-Display port etc.) that are of almost no use at the point of introduction since almost no peripherals for these interfaces are out then. That doesn't mean the interfaces are bad (with the exception of for example ADC which was proprietary bullshit). Even now, there is only a limited amount of peripherals available with a Thunderbolt interface, the amount is increasing steadily though. From a technical viewpoint, Thunderbolt could be described (simplified) as a merge of a PCI-E interface with a DisplayPort. Basically, you've got an external interface with the bandwidth of a PCI-E link (more throughput than PCI-E x1, but less than PCI-E x4). Additonally, you have also DisplayPort signalling on the same interface which makes it rather versatile. It's certainly a fast interface that offers a lot of possibilites for the future, but so far I've seen only Thunderbolt hosts with just one interface. This could be a problem for some Macs, since their Thunderbolt port is also used to connect external displays. It's a bit inconvenient to disconnet an external display for attaching an external Thunderbolt storage systems. On the PC side, we see a growing amount of motherboards and PCI-E expansion cards that offer Thunderbolt support. Motherboard support is mostly seen with Z77 chipset based motherboards. Many operating systems (beside OSX) have only a preliminary implementation of Thunderbolt. At the moment, I'd regard Thunderbolt still as a niche solution that is not really widespread and peripherals for Thunderbolt are not the cheapest ones. I'm sure we will hear more from Thunderbolt in the not so far future. In your case, Chong, I could imagine that an external array (be it an external disk enclosure or real NAS with additonal Thunderbolt port) could make sense regarding the speed you can access the data. Personally, I wouldn't go that way at the moment, but Thunderbolt is certainly faster than an eSATA connection. If you don't need very high speed, a NAS that is connected over Gbit-Enet gives you still the most convenience, especially with more than one computer at home. You can also connect a wireless access point to your Gbit-Ethernet-Network and access the data wireless additionally. A NAS makes most sense if you have already a LAN at home or have plans to realise one. I know, the decision is not easy. We have both not job at the moment and we can't toss money out like we'd perhaps like. I'd recommend you to read a few reviews from different sources in the internet if you are interested in a specific product. It will give you also the opinion of other people. I think that's important since you alone have to decide in the end what's best for your situation. I guess, you'll end up with an external disk (array) or NAS solution with an additional backup outside of your apartment (cloud storage or external disk/optical media that can be stored elsewhere).
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 4, 2012 9:15:14 GMT
My experience with Toshiba drives goes back about 15 years - first with PCMCIA drives, Toshiba laptops with HDD's, then eventually the external pocket drives (Canvio etc.). I've had many, and use them extensively, and none ever failed. For desktop computers the only desktops I've had are the corporate Dell's with their internal drives, and I'm on my third one in 10 years (no failures) replacing/upgrading every few years. These Dells are on 24/7 for years at a time and I've never had a problem. When I buy a new HDD, I will select one based on my perception of the manufacturer plus the apparent quality of the drive. Then, since my moment-to-moment backups onto 128 gb thumb drives take care of the daily chores, then with 3 external HDD's in rotation, I don't worry about losing anything. Dale, I really CAN recommend Toshiba's own drives. I've also never had a problem with them, although I've had only a few of them. But I can't recommend the drives that are manufactured at the former WD plants in Thailand, at least at the moment. Toshiba will probably need time to reach the same quality level with these drives. For NAS systems and big external disks, 3.5" drives are still the best choice. Exactly these drives are manufactured at former WD plants. I can't really recommend WD drives, even if they have a Toshiba sticker on them. I've seen to much failures with WD drives (even more with Seagate). Enterprise class drives (SAS or SATA 24/7) are a good choice from the viewpoint of reliability, but they costs more. Seagate's entrprise class drives have a good reputation, also those of WD. But you'd pay a premium for them. It's probably a better idea to go with "normal" drives and to expect the unreliability. With a good backup strategy (RAID1 combined with an additonal external disk for example), the loss of single disk wouldn't be that disastrous. If you configure a good NAS to be active only for the time you need it (the evening for example), you can also save money/power and increase the lifespan of a disks. For such an application, which is not 24/7/365 online, the cheap drives are even better suited. Enterprise class drives are usually not designed for a lot of on/off cycles, but for continues operation. It's the opposite way for the cheap drives, which makes them best suited for this application. I have also relatively cheap (non-24/7) drives in my NAS systems. My NAS systems run only a few hours per day and boot/shutdown according to a predefined schedule.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 4, 2012 14:05:20 GMT
Finally, I have a simple backup copy of my Hitachi 2TB in the Seagate 2TB external HDD after a day time of copying due to the huge amount of files to be copied. Now at least feel a bit safer until I get my 3rd NAS or external HDD to backup a 3rd copy.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 4, 2012 14:22:10 GMT
Just out of curiousity, say the Seagate drive failed after warranty (3 years for my case). Can I just replace the HDD inside the casing with say a Hitachi and it will work again after formating? Also, can we modify a USB 2 interface to a USB 3 in the casing? Anyone done that before? Yeah, turbo charge the NAS or external HDD. Thanks.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 4, 2012 21:07:17 GMT
Just out of curiousity, say the Seagate drive failed after warranty (3 years for my case). Can I just replace the HDD inside the casing with say a Hitachi and it will work again after formating? Also, can we modify a USB 2 interface to a USB 3 in the casing? Anyone done that before? Yeah, turbo charge the NAS or external HDD. Thanks. With older external HD cases, it was only a matter of the same interface (SATA, PATA, SCSI), since the USB or FireWire ports have been realised with a bridge chip. Of course, sometimes a few other limitations did occur (limited transfer rate of the bridge chip or size limitations with PATA or incompatibilities between a specific HD and bridge chip, which was very seldom). Today, there are two kind of external disks: Some have still a bridge chip on a PCB inside the case and provide real SATA ports for connecting a SATA-HD. Others are especially made by the large HD manufacturers for (very cheap) external cases and those HD's have only an USB connector (really!). I guess that these are NOT real USB HD's, but instead they have (probably) the bridge chip on the PCB of the HD itself. This saves costs for cheap external HD's, but it makes it almost impossible to find a replacement for the internal disk that fits. I can't say what's inside your old ext. HD. You'll need to have a look inside the case. You don't have such problems if you buy an empty external case. Those cases have always SATA or PATA interfaces inside (on a PCB with a bridge chip). Ext. HD's with eSATA (only) are different, they need no bridge chip. Most ext. HD's with eSATA have also USB2/3 and/or FireWire ports and there you'll find always a PCB inside the case with a bridge chip and all external ports (the bridge chip is only necessary for USB2/3 and FireWire, but the eSATA port is also on the same PCB usually). In case of a NAS: Always check the drive compatibility list of the manufacturer. Otherwise, it's your own risk if a specific drive doesn't work. Synology has such compatability lists, but they don't test all drives. My Samsung F1 drives have not been officially supported by Synology back then, but they work without problems since years. It was my risk though. Back then, Synology had listed mostly WD drives and it was not my intention to buy crap.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 9, 2012 5:55:42 GMT
Actually, I want to achieve 100 Mbs so that streaming all 3D HD will be realised too. So what should I do to achieve that in future when I'm working again? When I mean 100 Mbs is ACTUAL achievement and NOT SPEC achievement. Specs don't tell us anything as all specs will point to more than fantastic results much above what I'm aiming for. Also, current ACTUAL Wifi can't achieve full HD and 3D video steaming, right, without jerkiness? Only wire?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 6:12:48 GMT
Well you better pull your finger out then. It appears that the Olympics will be available in not only HD, but 3D as well according to Australia's 9 Network.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 9, 2012 21:13:37 GMT
Chong, 100Mb/s isn't a real problem. Definitely not locally (SATA/PATA/USB2+3/Firewire400+800/faster SCSI variants or SAS) and over the network.
(1 Mb=1/8 of 1 Megabyte in comparison to 1MB/s = 8Mb/s). Mb = Megabit, MB = Megabyte)
1 Gbit-Ethernet offers a therotical maximum of 125MB/s. But that's theory. One tenth is simply overhead, without this you've got approx. 112.5MB/s. That's also theory, but in real world, the fastest transfers/benchmarks I've seen (not synthetic bemarks) are close to 110MB/s. That's the upper real world limit. I've got quite easily betwenn 75-85MB/s over Gbit-Ethernet with a (older) Synology NAS. Usually, you have to get networking hardware that supports Jumbo Frames (max. MTU=9000) to get into these performance levels.
Using Jumbo frames requires that every device that is part of the data transfer is capable of using Jumbo frames. In a switched networks this means (at least) the server, the switch and the client. For maximum performance, network parameters have to be carefully selected and even some minor advantages/disavantages of the used NIC's have an influence.
With todays NAS system (not the cheap ones, I mean midrange to highend), a good manageable switch, a fast clients and last but not least and optimised configuration make it possible to achive 100MB/s or more over Gbit-Ethernet. If you don't take care of the components or configuration (kind of out-of-the-box "plug'n'play"), you'll be often stuck in the 40-60MB/s range. It could be even worse (but seldom is).
Instead of buying components (NAS, switch etc.) with all bells and whistles, you could also go for a good midrange NAS, one of the more simple managed Gbit switches and a really fast internal drive, more exactly a good SSD. Instead of playing cricitical files over the network, you could copy them first (over the network) to the internal SSD and play from there. This solution is probably faster in the end with less costs. I don't assume that you'd play always ultra-high-res 3d moovies, do you?
Regarding good SSD's with no troubles and over the line reliability, I'd suggest you a SSD drive from the Crucial m4 series. I have such an drive in my flagship PC and made very good experiences with it (a lot of other guys are reporting the same). Crucial uses a Marvell controller, not one of the more common SandForce controllers. The fastest SandForce controllers are slightly faster in synthecial benchmarks than its Marvell counterparts. Real world performance is on par though. Reliablity and compatibility of the Marvell controllers a lot better though. The Crucial m4 series comes also at a very competitive price point. They've dropped prices recently substantially (others did also TBH).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 7:41:50 GMT
Interesting thread this.
I thought it best to put something in place that a) works and b) I can understand!
Maybe not the best solution (and there are plenty in here who will go on at length about how wrong my suoluton is - but I don't care) but if it's easy to understand then there's a good chance I'll use it regularly. And I do.
I am keeping two copies of my music library ... I have two 1TB Seagate 'Expansion' USB 2.0 drives. One is the 'active' music library which gets switched on most days and runs all day. The other is the backup and is only switched on when it's needed (in the hope that I am prolonging its life by doing this).
A very simple concept but I needed some software to manage the process. I settled on FreeFileSync which alows me to make a simple mirror of my active library directories. Whenever I finish a session of 'library management' I use FreeFileSync to compare the appropriate directories and make the backup copy match the active copy.
As I said, maybe not the best solution but it works for me
I need to add a thrid layer of protection, I think, which will just provide an extra copy of particularly valuable files such as paid-for hi-res downloads. Anything I have ripped from my own CDS.. well, the CD is backup enough. Inconvenient to restore form, but it IS there, if i should need it when BOTH Seagate drives fall over at the same time..
Meanwhile, my music library is at 400GB and I still have quite a stack of CDs to rip.
Derek
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 11, 2012 10:31:24 GMT
Hi Derek, From the look of all the things and feedbacks here, those into backing up in their daily work routine seem to have at least 3 copies of the same files stored away at different locations - bank, data centre (cloud) and at home, etc. Btw, those are no laughing matter for them as if they fail they will be guaranteed to be fired! So I'm going to beef up my backup to incorporate their thinking into my backup strategy and I think it's fair to say it should banish whatever Murphy's law that can come about from whatever directions. So ........... First Layer (Frontline): 3 external HDDs (some called them NAS too like me from my much earlier understanding to refer them to) backup as HDDs are relatively cheap. So far, I have only 2 2TB external HDDs in a Hitachi and a Seagate. Actually I wanted a 3TB WD external HDD too but not available the USB 3 version here. Lucky for me too as Seagate and WD are noted for high failure rates from the feedbacks here as well as at Seagate support forum. If on 3 external HDDs, one of the HDD will be stored at my sister's place, which is nearby, in case of fire or theft. Second Layer (Midline): A REAL NAS like Synology or QNAP with RAID. Which RAID has to reconsider again after Elysion good explanation and I thought RAID 5 was the best RAID strategy all along after some initial readup on it some time ago. Last Layer (Backline): Cloud if cheap enough as our HDDs and NAS will also fail due to wear and tear. Cloud no need to worry anymore about having to Scandisk now and then as well as maintenance. Also, can use the stored files anywhere in the world including in an aircraft if permitted to use computer and you have satellite access. Only drawback is if the line is down and you will have to pay a premium for that service. That's why it is good only as the last line of defence and as an option.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 11, 2012 10:33:45 GMT
Btw, do you guys use any particular software to manage your hugh AV files as well as pictures?
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Post by dalethorn on Jun 11, 2012 13:54:54 GMT
For file management I group files by folder and then by a hierarchical filename scheme. For example, "Headphone_Sennheiser_HD800_Review.txt" Some folders have subfolders, so I use for example, Music/Flac or Music/Tones etc. But for actual backup, I use my own customized version of the old "Dirmatch" utility, which compares two folders (usually internal HDD -vs- backup drive) and shows same, difference, exclusive difference, many other options. But the clincher is I call the folder-match utility in batch files, so in a single quick session I can compare a hundred or more folders and make intelligent decisions about what to back up and what to ignore. Since any of my batch files can be called up instantly and randomly, I get my in-process files backed up immediately before I forget what they are or what state they are in. That's critical since I manage about 35,000 personal files now. Edit: Here's where I keep my code, for this any many other projects. dalethorn.com/Software.html
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 2:24:55 GMT
Btw, Dave, since you have 2 Seagate HDDs, how long have you used them? Any problem so far to get a feel from someone who have used a Seagate for long?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 7:00:10 GMT
Btw, Dave, since you have 2 Seagate HDDs, how long have you used them? Any problem so far to get a feel from someone who have used a Seagate for long? If you meant "Derek" then I have used my Seagate library drive for over 2 years; the oldest files were added Mar 2010. The backup drive is newer - bought around Jan 2011 IIRC. Derek
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 8:29:00 GMT
If you meant "Derek" then I have used my Seagate library drive for over 2 years; the oldest files were added Mar 2010. The backup drive is newer - bought around Jan 2011 IIRC. Oops, Derek it is. So after 2 years still going strong, eh? Anyway, just to get an idea, how long you use per day for the main HDD? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 11:01:06 GMT
If you meant "Derek" then I have used my Seagate library drive for over 2 years; the oldest files were added Mar 2010. The backup drive is newer - bought around Jan 2011 IIRC. Oops, Derek it is. So after 2 years still going strong, eh? Anyway, just to get an idea, how long you use per day for the main HDD? Thanks. 4 or 5 days a week from, say, 9:00 until 18:00 - not quite all day, everyday but not far off. Also I have another, older, Seagate 250GB drive.... must be 4 or 5 years old - still running fine and used as archive for music, photography and video... or temp storage when moving data from one PC to another.
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 12, 2012 11:43:59 GMT
4 or 5 days a week from, say, 9:00 until 18:00 - not quite all day, everyday but not far off. Also I have another, older, Seagate 250GB drive.... must be 4 or 5 years old - still running fine and used as archive for music, photography and video... or temp storage when moving data from one PC to another. That's a good reliability record there! I wonder why people are complaining against Seagate then? Btw, have you Scandisk and is there any bad sectors for those HDDs?
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 12, 2012 12:08:53 GMT
A record? I have many disk that are much older an still work.
Why do people complain about Seagate: Because their drives have a quite high failure rate. That doesn't mean that every HD will fail. It means only that it is more common than with other brands. Seagate makes also enterprise class drives (24/7 and SAS types) which are more reliable than their standard disks, but you pay much more for them. WD isn't really know also for the reliability of its HD's.
I've seen a lot of Seagate and WD drives fail. Hitachi and Samsung drives have lower failure rates (not on the paper BUT in reality). Since Samsung was bought by Seagate and Hitachi's HD branch will be integrated into WD, we've soon only the choice between Seagate, WD and Toshiba (Toshiba's own drives have a good reputation, but their new stuff is made in former WD plants in Thailand). A few good reasons to move to SSD (where it's possible already). If you need cheap space for your data, HD's are still the way to go. If you have a good backup strategy, you won't have think about reliabilty of HD's too much. HD's are simply consumable supplies. Some HD's die early, some do not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2012 14:17:43 GMT
I'm wanting to change the SATA HD in my laptop for greater capacity, maybe 500gb @ 5400 (my Dell does not support 7400). Are there particular model numbers to look out for that are of the original Toshiba quality stated?
Cheers.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 12, 2012 22:55:03 GMT
I'm wanting to change the SATA HD in my laptop for greater capacity, maybe 500gb @ 5400 (my Dell does not support 7400). Are there particular model numbers to look out for that are of the original Toshiba quality stated? Cheers. Hi Chris, I have no real additional information. The only thing I know is that Toshiba has bought former WD plants in Thailand. My guess is that the 2.5" notebook HD's are still their own developments and that the 3.5" HD's are at least partially from the WD plants. It's also possible that they sell very soon everywhere the same quality. I have not a good possibilty to compare their product line before/after they buy of the WD plants. I have one Toshiba 2.5" harddrive around. It's originally from a MacBook which has got a bigger internal HD and I use it now in an external case. Never had problems with it. In the end, it's not that important which harddisk brand. Every harddisk could fail. The most important thing is to have a good backup strategy. I can also still buy Hitachi harddrives (I can recommend them) BTW. The really good thing is that SSDs are getting cheaper. This market offers more choice. The harddisk market isn't really interesting for manufacturers anymore. The near future seems to be about SSDs. Harddisk will still have their niche in the next few years: Capacity for money is still almost unbeatable, they are comparatively cheap and quite fast as long as you don't compare them with SSDs. Cheers, Christian
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XTRProf
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Post by XTRProf on Jun 14, 2012 4:10:48 GMT
SSD, although it's the best, is still not competitive with HDD. As I will be going for storage and backup purpose, HDD it will still be as I'm looking for 2 TB above.
Hope, Toshiba comes out a good > 2 TB HDD to try one in Singapore. Else, I will buy another Hitachi at 3TB USB 3.
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Post by pcourtney1 on Jun 21, 2012 17:41:39 GMT
I am pretty pleased with my Netgear ReadyNAS Ultra 2 Plus at home, it has 2 x 3TB drives in it, one is a WD and the other a Seagate, setup as Raid1, and I can remotely acces anything on it when I am on my travels using the free Netgear Remote software client
but I also back up important files during the week from my laptop to my tiny USB 16GB thumb drives ( I have 8 of these ) , and when I get home I just stick them into the ReadyNAS front USB socket and simply press Backup
it works pretty well for me this setup for over 12 months now, and simple too.
for really important stuff, I also back up to two external USB2 Seagate 1TB drives, one is at work, and the other at my parents house, I have not looked at any Cloud storage stuff, for me I don't really see the point, but it does look attractive as another way to backup mission critical stuff, but the jury is out for me at the moment on this
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Post by pagan on Jun 22, 2012 9:01:42 GMT
another idea to look at for home backups is....
Look at the size/amount of data you need to backup, A few GB's, MB's or massive 2TB's of data.
Because personal computers are upgraded, HDD sizes are aways getting bigger you may have some old 250GB or 320GB or 500GB hdd's sitting around. They may be old but they still work ok. Use a USB docking station and use the old hdd's for backups. Once backed up, put them in a cupboard somewhere. If you have a few old hdd's, just rotate the backups.
I still have an old 160GB hdd I use for a backup, as well as old 320GB's 500GB's I slide into a docking station from time to time.
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