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Post by flatbroker on May 30, 2012 1:34:45 GMT
I'll post an image when I get a chance. I hope that's Fahrenheit because otherwise I think you have a serious problem! -JoetheArachnid Yes degrees F Picture attached. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 2:45:07 GMT
<snip> So I turned it on and let it warm up. With the Denon D2000 which is laser like for problems, my first feelings were that I would detect noise for sure with such low impedance headphones and glitches up top because it's a tube and the Denons seem to recognise tubes very easily!! <snip> The addition of the D2000 has raised my expectations from amps a lot since they are really good at pointing out minor differences and it picks out the Horizon with ease. <snip> If you are using headphones that are perhaps not as revealing as the D2000, you may not notice as much difference as I did, but it is stunning on the HD650 and the K601!!!! (Yes K601) set the jumpers to 120 ohms and you get a warmer K601. It drives the Denon D2000 really well which surprised me. Hi, Ian I was very interested to read your comments about the Denon D2000 phones, and am considering possibly buying a pair. I can probably get them for about $250 US. Would you elaborate a little more about your experience with them? I am expecting my new Horizon (serial #0001!) from Jeremy tomorrow, and will report my impressions about it as well. All the Best Israel P.S. Since I wrote this, I read some of the extensive discussion about the above at the headphone forum. Sorry!
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joethearachnid
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Post by joethearachnid on Jun 1, 2012 12:17:14 GMT
Israel,
If you're thinking about a pair of D2000s, you might want to get in there sooner rather than later. Denon has just announced a new line of (rather ugly-looking) flagship headphones that are set to replace the D2/5/7000 line which is being phased out. You might suddenly find that old Denons see a sharp price increase...
-JoetheArachnid
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 15:00:05 GMT
HI Israel. They are indeed being discontinued. A great shame since they are a lovely sounding headphone. They are lush and full bodied with a much more extended sounding treble in comparison to the Senn HD650 and they sound as though they also go lower in the bass. Comfortable to wear but can get warm. I'd say semi-closed. Bad points - the thick cable can be annoying. The join on the cup (I hear) can fail although I've not had a problem yet. You start to feel that the AKG sound is positively thin by comparison. My favourite headphone now. I think the nearest to it is the Beyer DT990 which suggests a 'u' shaped FR. I tend to use the DT990, D2000 and K601 a lot more than anything else tbh. BTW, before you go Denon, try the K701 on the Horizon set at 120 ohms. Personally, I prefer the K601 but it is even better on the Horizon. Lots of power and it has more 'developed' sound in the bass. I'm also very fond of the K601 which is a bargain imo and is often overlooked. On the Horizon, it really blossoms with all that power at 120 ohms output impedance. One thing though Israel, I'd say if you're really keen on the K701 sound, you may not like the d2000 since you may find it too 'thick' sounding. (More Senn 650 like with more prominent treble) I can accept both the K601 and d2000 sounds in spite of them being quite different. Perhaps the K601 is more 'neutral' sounding and the d2000 more 'entertaining' kind of puts them more into context. I like both a lot. As far as the Horizon goes, I must admit, I've become a bit of a 'fanboy'. It is a really nice amp and the configuration idea is implemented in a really quite brilliant and simple way. I think the tube biasing is also simple but I haven't delved into it because I probably don't need to yet and I don't have instructions. What I really like is the power that it delivers and it seems to get a grip of the headphones with absolutely no signs of stress or struggle - even the K701 is like a portable headphone on it. It has a lush, big sound that I liked at the start. I have mine on loan from Frans who put it together. You are quite right to consider the heat sinking though. Although it's fine as it is, personally, I'd prefer an amp running as cool as possible for a longer life. I would say, once you've heard the Horizon, you may be very satisfied with the K701 sound. I would personally then consider a high quality closed headphone rather than the D2000. My search for the ultimate closed headphone continues.......
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 20:08:31 GMT
Israel, If you're thinking about a pair of D2000s, you might want to get in there sooner rather than later. Denon has just announced a new line of (rather ugly-looking) flagship headphones that are set to replace the D2/5/7000 line which is being phased out. You might suddenly find that old Denons see a sharp price increase... -JoetheArachnid Hi, Joe Thanks for your advice! I already bought a pair of D2000s from an outfit in NY, and should have them next week sometime. They cost me $258.99 US, New ,Sealed in Box, Shipped (approximately 169 GBP), which I think is reasonable. All the Best! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 20:34:16 GMT
HI Israel. They are indeed being discontinued. A great shame since they are a lovely sounding headphone. They are lush and full bodied with a much more extended sounding treble in comparison to the Senn HD650 and they sound as though they also go lower in the bass. Comfortable to wear but can get warm. I'd say semi-closed. Bad points - the thick cable can be annoying. The join on the cup (I hear) can fail although I've not had a problem yet. You start to feel that the AKG sound is positively thin by comparison. My favourite headphone now. I think the nearest to it is the Beyer DT990 which suggests a 'u' shaped FR. I tend to use the DT990, D2000 and K601 a lot more than anything else tbh. <snip> ( Hi, Ian Thanks again for the detailed description of the D2000s. Last night on an impulse, I bought a pair of them from a NY outfit, and should have them next week. Your advice (the Senns ie8s, for example) in the past has been spot on, and very much in agreement with the way I perceive SQ. As far as the cable is concerned, I am not too worried because I routinely upgrade the cables on my headphones with the Cardas cables, and Cardas plugs, which I build for myself, hence the cost is minimal (about a sixth of what some of the 'reasonable' cable peddlers charge). I am confident that I will like the D2000 in my collection of HPs. As you know, not all recordings are made equal -- some are more sibilant than others, some have less bass, some more, mike placements are different, etc.,etc.... So, it is good to have different combinations of HPs and amps as the particular recording requires. I know, this switching back and forth can be a nuisance for some, but for me it is almost a necessity. I especially find that I am inclined to use HPs with a HF roll-off on some poorly re-mastered CDs, where the audio engineers failed to tame down the HF on the old RIAA curve as used in the past on vinyl LPs. I will post my impressions both on the Horizon and the various HPs after I receive them, and will have had a chance to play with them some. Thanks again for your input! All the Best! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 21:24:07 GMT
You do the same as I do, Israel. Each headphone that I have suits a purpose for whatever recording I'm listening to!! That's why I have a daft collection of them I guess. Most used for me are d2000, K601, DT990, DT770 pro and DT150 (at work for long listening sessions and loud!!) I've yet to find a decent headphone for home use that's closed. I'd like to try the K550. The DT150 is great for working with, but to me, it's not really like a home hi fi headphone. It's designed more for long term, loud listening and I normally hear it eq'd anyway. DT770 is better at home but not as well balanced. BBC love the 770's!! I really like the d2000 with those edgy recordings where brass can peel the skin off your ears. When they start rasping loud and the engineers have eq'd with a bright edge. (Such as quite a lot of the Moscow Symphony Orchestra recordings) The brass have you wincing and the Denons don't calm it down so much as address the other end so it just feels more balanced and less strident. However, the treble is retained so it's like an aural illusion. So if anything grates on the K701, the Denon will 'fatten' it up for you without curtailing the treble so you still hear the nice 'breathy' flute sounds and a proper 'squawk from oboes and bassoons!! Imaging is pretty good too. On the Horizon, you may need the output impedance set at 35 ohms (I think it is). The Denons are prone to pick up noise being such a low impedance so putting the output impedance up on the Horizon cuts the faint hiss that you may well get on them. Actually, I run it at 120 ohms out since the Denons don't really change much but the AKG's do. The Horizon easily delivers enough power into 120 ohms. Cheers, Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 2:28:29 GMT
Hi, Ian I received my Horizon on Monday, and I absolutely love it! It is everything you said it was, and then some! What impressed me most is the clean, transparent SQ, the immediacy of articulation, and the tight bass, which never gets in the way of the upper range. Also impressive is the dynamic range of this incredible beast! My K701s never sounded better -- the Horizon's power and output impedance helps them produce a respectable bass if driven hard enough. My HD650s (Cardas recabled) sound absolutely gorgeous, and all the veiling is completely gone. I even find that I have to tame the HF down a bit on some old remastered recordings (with the good old RIAA curve remnants) by driving them at higher impedances. My new D2000s arrived today, and they are indeed everything you said they are! Superb! Unlike you, however, I find myself driving them with the output impedance set at nearly zero with no ill effects from noise. Perhaps this has something to do with where I live -- a very quiet neighborhood. When I listen critically, I turn off all air conditioning, fans, etc. I tested the D2000 at zero OI setting without a source signal, but connected to the source without playing, and in order to perceive even the slightest noise, I had to turn up the volume knob to 2:30 o'clock, which would bust my ear drums should I be foolish enough to try it with a signal going through! My normal listening level with the D2000 is 9:00 o'clock. Thanks for all your positive comments about these two gems! They were very helpful in making my decision to purchase them! TO FRANS: Thank you for designing such a magnificent creation! It has all the touches of genius! Cheers! Israel P.S. I just removed the original Russian 6N23P, and plugged in one of my highly prized Telefunken tubes (an ECC88) and lo and behold! The skies opened up, and the clarity and definition became amazing! I never thought that the sound could improve that much, but that good old German Telefunken opened new "HORIZONS" (no pun intended)! WOW!!! :oIMHO a good Telefunken tube is indeed a treasure to behold! I have some Mullards, some original Czech Military Teslas (which for a while were sold under the Telefunken name), Siemens, and others, such as Bugle Boy, etc., but to my ears, so far have not found anything that can compare to the accuracy, clarity, and transient response of a Telefunken tube in good condition. One must beware of imitations, however. Caveat Emptor!
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 9, 2012 1:00:09 GMT
Hey Ian, Good reads! Horizon is currently available for pre-order now with an expected ship date of may 7th. A kit will be $254.99 and a fully built / tested Horizon will be $299.99. Optional hard carrying case runs $30 extra for either a kit or built and tested amp. Just shoot me a PM and I can send a paypal invoice to any interested parties. Horizon will be added to my webstore on May 7th. Hey, Jeremy After a long absence, I am back among the living. Been in the hospital for a couple of months, literally fighting for my life after complications following open heart surgery. As Mark Twain said, 'Rumors of my demise have been greatly exagerated.' I am now back, eager and anxious to catch up with all that I have missed, and will be very much interested in the Horizon amp. I am inclined to get the fully built and tested one, for I am still recovering from my brush with the 'Grim Reaper'. Let me know how soon you can ship one out to me. Do you think you can add an extra layer of heat sinking? Send me an invoice, and I will PayPal you ASAP. All The Best! Israel Hi Israel, I've spotted the newer posts in this thread quite late and I've missed your posts until now. Sorry to hear about your health problems and welcome back on RG. I've noticed more than once in the last few months, that you've "disappeared". It's good to have you back! To anyone reading this thread: I've mentioned it already on the first page of this thread. What about adapting techniques for cooling components from computer cooling? Think of heatpipes, copper heatsinks etc. Compared to an overclocked CPU, even the Horizon doesn't produce much heat. I've seen the posts from flatbroker in which he's mentioning that he uses thermal compound between the heatsinks. It would be also an option to use Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive to glue heatsinks together (I've mentioned Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive in a couple of other threads in the past). Perhaps it would be possible to adapt a compartatively cheap heatpipe CPU cooler as passive heatsink (without the fan). There are also smaller chipset cooler available with heatpipes. The prices can't be beat since those are mass produced items. The adaption itself could be the main problem though. I have a couple of old CPU heatsinks around (without heatpipes) that could be also interesting. Most of them have been intended for very hot P4 class CPU's originally, I have also a few massive copper heatsinks around (1-2 in new condition). I don't have spare heatpipe coolers around though (I use them for computers and would have to buy them also). If someone wants to try with such stuff, PM me and I'll look if I can do something for you. I could also assist in searching appropriate cooler/heatsink types. Another approach would be the chimney effect. I've mentioned it also in other thread in the past. It would end up maybe in an ugly outlook of the amp, because a kind of "chimney" would be necessary that would be put on top of the amp, but it would increase the convective flow of heat.
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 9, 2012 1:22:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 1:32:40 GMT
If you had a high enough rated PSU you could experiment with a Peltier device ? (e.g. 12V 8A)
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elysion
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Post by elysion on Jun 9, 2012 1:50:24 GMT
If you had a high enough rated PSU you could experiment with a Peltier device ? (e.g. 12V 8A) I've had that idea also, but a Peltier device can be tricky. It uses a lot of power and you have to transfer the heat still to a kind of radiator/heatsink. I've mentioned also heatlanes (IIRC on the first page of this thread). I've found no source for them at the moment (they are not really common), but they could be a possibility to transfter the heat from the components to a heatsink/radiator that isn't that close to the components themselves. A heatlane is basically a kind of heatpipe in mostly flat form that can be bound within specified limits (they look almost like a ribbon cable made from copper). Even water cooling would be possible. There are a lot of adapters for water cooling around and it would be probably easier to reach all components. On the other hand, I think it would be overkill (maybe my solutions above are too...), mainly because water cooling is costly and time-consuming. It's also risky because you operate with water near electrical power. The 24 or 48 Volts in the Sunrise/Horizon are already high enough to hurt someone (but it would certainly not kill anyone). If the stock Sunrise/Horizons amps would be less sensitive to EMI, it could also be a variant to place a good 120/140mm fan above the amp while feeding it from a second PSU to minimise problems. It don't think this is the best solution, but probably it's one that is easy to realise. I guess no one would like fan noise (even if not noticeable at all). The amount of heat that is generated by the Sunrise/Horizon is comparatively low and passive cooling solutions are probably the best deal. It's probably against the original idea of the Sunrise/Horzion, but a massive aluminum enclosure that is thermally connected to the hot components is also a possibility. I would also shield the amp very good. The upper/lower side of such a box should be made of wire mesh to increase airflow.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 2:31:04 GMT
Christian. Going off topic a bit. At one stage I was seriously considering fitting a Peltier device to an evaporative cooler, in part because they were so readily available and cheap. With a good Evaporative Cooler, they are very effective until the water in the tank reaches room temperature. The additional 100W of power would be of little consequence compared with the cost of running a large Air Conditioner due to skyrocketing prices for elrctricity. Alex
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 5:25:24 GMT
Hi Israel, I've spotted the newer posts in this thread quite late and I've missed your posts until now. Sorry to hear about your health problems and welcome back on RG. I've noticed more than once in the last few months, that you've "disappeared". It's good to have you back! To anyone reading this thread: I've mentioned it already on the first page of this thread. What about adapting techniques for cooling components from computer cooling? Think of heatpipes, copper heatsinks etc. Compared to an overclocked CPU, even the Horizon doesn't produce much heat. I've seen the posts from flatbroker in which he's mentioning that he uses thermal compound between the heatsinks. It would be also an option to use Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive to glue heatsinks together (I've mentioned Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive in a couple of other threads in the past). Perhaps it would be possible to adapt a compartatively cheap heatpipe CPU cooler as passive heatsink (without the fan). There are also smaller chipset cooler available with heatpipes. The prices can't be beat since those are mass produced items. The adaption itself could be the main problem though. I have a couple of old CPU heatsinks around (without heatpipes) that could be also interesting. Most of them have been intended for very hot P4 class CPU's originally, I have also a few massive copper heatsinks around (1-2 in new condition). I don't have spare heatpipe coolers around though (I use them for computers and would have to buy them also). If someone wants to try with such stuff, PM me and I'll look if I can do something for you. I could also assist in searching appropriate cooler/heatsink types. Another approach would be the chimney effect. I've mentioned it also in other thread in the past. It would end up maybe in an ugly outlook of the amp, because a kind of "chimney" would be necessary that would be put on top of the amp, but it would increase the convective flow of heat. Hi, Christian Thanks for the kind words! It is indeed good to be back, and read all the very informative comments by some very intelligent people in this wonderful forum. It is interesting that you mention Arctic Silver. I have been using Arctic Silver compound all along in installing (replacing, as in the case of the G2 amp) the LM317 and the IRL510 components. I also used it in stacking the extra 2 layers of heat sinks on both my Project Sunrise, and my new Horizon, which by the way, is a superb piece of work! Thanks again for your thoughtful, welcoming greeting! All the Best! Israel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 9:57:44 GMT
Actually, when Mike put the Sunrise together for me, he put an isolation sock over the valve and that does indeed act as a chimney. You can most definitely feel the heat coming away from the valve.
However, he put a lot of heat sinking on as well and even connected the two sides together with a rod that also takes heat from both heat sinks.
It works amazingly well and the Sunrise runs so cool that I can leave my hand on the heatsinks all of the time.
I think that would still be a good idea for the Horizon although the heat buildup isn't that bad tbh. I guess I tend to think long term damage rather than the next couple of years.
I was even thinking of putting a 'bridge' across the heat sinks actually. That would bring it down.
On the Horizon that Frans has lent me, he has put two heat sinks on top of each other so they are quite raised from the body. Putting the top on a bridge would offer more cooling surface and not look too bad at the back. (It would resemble the power supplies seen on Little Dot type amps with built in supplies)
In fact, I may just lay some metal across the two heat sinks to see if it runs cooler. Just a flat plate to pull heat away but face upwards so it dissipates.
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Post by LuK on Jun 9, 2012 10:23:50 GMT
The Sunrise-II acept ECC86 tubes?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 13:36:24 GMT
It should accept ECC86, did not try. It must be on 6V heater setting.
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joethearachnid
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Post by joethearachnid on Jun 9, 2012 22:39:52 GMT
Even water cooling would be possible. There are a lot of adapters for water cooling around and it would be probably easier to reach all components. On the other hand, I think it would be overkill (maybe my solutions above are too...), mainly because water cooling is costly and time-consuming. It's also risky because you operate with water near electrical power. The 24 or 48 Volts in the Sunrise/Horizon are already high enough to hurt someone (but it would certainly not kill anyone). I have heard about PCs that have their motherboards immersed in mineral oil for cooling purposes, though obviously once immersed changing components becomes difficult. A perspex box with the Sunrise/Horizon inside it and then filled with mineral oil could do the trick and preserve the visual style, though I don't know how things would work with tube rolling (particularly re-biasing) in that case. Obviously any input/output connectors and controls would have to be made watertight but I'm sure it's possible if someone is feeling brave (or stupid). -JoetheArachnid
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 23:14:13 GMT
I spent most of my working life (>44 years) with 53V busbars supplied by several banks of 2,200 AH 2V cells, and I can assure you that the only way 53V DC could have hurt me or other Telecomms workers would be if we were holding a bloody big spanner when it was placed across the busbars.The spanner wouldn't look too much like a spanner anymore, or would the hand holding it look like a hand. I understand that a spanner was accidentally dropped by an Australian Installation Staff member across the busbars many years ago. Alex
P.S. Higher DC voltages are a different matter, like with power amplifiers with + and - 50V or higher supply rails.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 7:21:57 GMT
When I was a kid, my Mum bought me an organ. It had a connector in line to the mains.
One day, I touched it and got a very nasty jolt which made me go flying to the floor.
I lay on the ground after feeling like someone had hit me hard in the chest, thinking that it was no big deal to be dead. I was convinced that I had died.
I lay there peacefully looking around not moving an inch taking the idea of 'death' in and becoming accustomed to it.
Quite a long time later, I thought I was being visited by a guide to take me into the 'dead' world.
Unfortunately it was my Mum who said, 'get off the floor you stupid boy and go downstairs and have your tea.'
I was there for 20 minutes playing dead.
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Post by LuK on Jun 11, 2012 8:51:44 GMT
It should accept ECC86, did not try. It must be on 12V setting Thx Solder, the problem is... that tube have a 14 amplifier factor with a very low anode voltage (12V). Is not this too high for Sunrise project?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 9:08:11 GMT
the ECC86 anode voltage is max 30V and the supply voltage is 24V so on the safe side in any case. In operational mode it has around 12V (Sunrise-II has different bias voltage than Sunrise) on it so is perfectly suited for the job and should perform optimal as it was designed to be used on 12V where other tubes are designed for much higher anode (plate) voltages ranging from 50V to 200V.
The ECC88 and ECC86 are both framegrid tubes and are intended for use at lower voltages. The ECC86 is designed for even lower voltages than ECC88(6922, 6DJ8)
The ECC86 cannot be used in the Horizon but can be used in G2/G3 and indeed/bravo thingies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 10:02:44 GMT
Frans,
Has Jeremy finished and posted the Horizon manual anywhere? (Preferably with pretty coloured pictures for thickos like me)
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Post by LuK on Jun 14, 2012 12:53:17 GMT
The ECC86 cannot be used in the Horizon but can be used in G2/G3 and indeed/bravo thingies. Thanks Solder, but I don't understand this point... Why the ECC86 can't be used with the Horizon? With Sunrise-II should it work? Sunrise and Horizon aren't a twin project? Thx a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2012 13:54:42 GMT
The ECC86 is spec'd for max 30V plate voltage (but will probably also still work on slightly higher voltages.
In the Sunrise and all Bravo thingies e.t.c. the maximum plate voltage (max voltage swing) = 22V so well within specs. For the Horizon this is 46V, 13V above spec so therefore not recommended.
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