first "real" headphones, K 500 or K 242 MK II

[dragan]

Hi, I am after my first pair of "real" headphones, as so far AKG K 77 were the best I owned.

I have two options:

brand spanking new, out of store AKG K 242 MK II (warranty and all). Reason why I want these: I want semi open/open AKGs, heard 242 HDs and REALLY liked them, so 242 MK IIs because they are pretty much the same thing, and cheaper. Lowest price i can get them for is around 130 €.

or

used (but supposedly "as new") AKG K 500. They do really look as good as new, clean, ear pads in nice condition (clean, not squashed), and there is not a mark on them. Thats from photographs. Reason why I would want these is: nice reviews, nice looks, planning on building a more serious head amp anyways. I can get them for 60 €.


Aware that I need a serious amp for K 500s, but atm I have only BT 928 that I've started to mod. My plan is to build something more serious, but that might be in a few months time, and it might not happen at all So I guess the real question is, would (heavily) modded BT 928 drive K500s even half decent?

[Deleted]

If you want a cheap amp, I think the Zigis Ebay amp is great. £36 and it sounds really good even with an AKG K601. It even drives a Sennheiser HD650.

As far as headphones go, I'd say get the better sounding pair for you and if it's the second hand one then that's fine if they are in good condition. If it's cheap enough you might be able to afford a Zigis with it.

You'd get a pleasant surprise.

[dragan]

ok. I assume thats one point towards K500

anyone else? Another factor is that K 240 MK II are ... Well, new. New technology, and 55 ohm, so I could use them with iPhone.

[Deleted]

The K500 is a kind of discontinued classic and is hard to get. Can sound thin if not driven properly.

www.headfonia.com/akg-k500-k501/

[UzminiNu]

get the K500 for that silly money.lol.

[funk1969]

Get a K500 and find a nice vintage amplifier with a good headphone out; the AKG will come to life again (should it be in good condition)...

[XTRProf]

Might as well save a bit and up the ante to the Philips L1. According to Dale, it's at the tier 1 category of HPs and he had heard lots of them.

[dragan]

still can't decide. 50/50 now

also, just spotted that I typed 242 mk ii, when its actually 240 mk ii

[funk1969]

Buy it, if you don't like it I'm willing to buy the K500 from you. The K500 is a gem, seriously...

[dragan]

decided

watch this space

[dragan]

arrived.

1st impression: Filthy. Not nearly as the guy said "Perfect, in top condition". Pads are horrid.

2nd impression: Falling of my (big) head. Elastics are shot.

3rd impression: Whooooaa.. Definition of instrument separation. These are scary good in that dept. Decay is WAY longer than anything I have heard - ever. It is, as I said, SCARY good. Intro to the Coheed & Cambria - Time Consumer, drums: it is as if I can hear the initial strike of the drumsticks, time passes and I can hear the full sound of drum. Before K 500 this was only one sound. Scary, I tell you.

4th impression: Bass. Or, lack of it. Sorry, but either to them being fully open, or them being 20 years old, or them being not amplified properly, this is dept where they fail for me. Any song, any genre. Not happy.




Now, to the business:

How can I take the pads of (anticlockwise turn and all, yes - but by how much? One hour anticlockwise, two hours? Any catch I don't know about?)

edit:

I did not want to force the pads to come of, so I just used bigger hammer. They are off now

They just needed slightly more force than I initially applied.

Gone to wash them

[Deleted]

The K500 and K501 have quite severe lows roll off. ( about -12dB @ 35Hz)
Some people don't mind this roll of and perceive it as realistic and tight bass.
Others do mind the lack of low extension.
I like the K500/K501 for their mids and highs but don't own one for the lack of lows extension.

The BT928 with standard caps also has considerable lows roll-off (adds another -3dB @ 35Hz)

This combo thus has 35Hz about -15dB opposite the rest of the spectrum.
-10dB is a halving of perceived 'loudness'.

so the lack of (deep) lows can be blamed on both, modding the BT928 will only solve a small part of the 'problem'.
The K500 itself is the biggest culprit.

driving it with 120 Ohm output resistor will increase bass response also a bit (around +1 to +2 dB)

The forte of the K500 is in the mids and highs (airyness) not the bass department I am afraid.
The K500 is highly liked by classical and Jazz lovers.
Many people are very satisfied with it's separating qualities.

[dragan]

^ as for their strengths in mids and highs, I could not agree more

Now, I'm not a bass head (but I started as one), so that might contribute to my subjective impression of these cans. I read that a lot of people have replaced the pads with 701 ones, and that altho it did improve on the bass side, it has taken a lot from ev'thing else. As they are not fully working for me now, I might give it a go. But not before I mod BT 928 as much as I can.

I have tried them on only with two songs, just to confirm that both drivers work without issues - I was that disgusted with the state of the pads. I don't want to remember any more.

Here they are, drying out:



After they dry out, I'll give K 500s a proper listen.

What to do about elastics:

[dragan]

also, I want to thank everyone for nice replies

I really appreciate thorough answers as solderdudes, as I am now going back to things I learned in my high school (computer hardware technician). I have very much forgotten ev'thing except the real basic of electronics so if anyone have enough time to REALLY explain things in detail, that would be great!

[Deleted]

Replace both 10uF caps for 100uF caps (max 470uF).
Replace both 47uF caps for 1,000uF or 2,200uF caps.
Make sure the voltage rating at least equals that of the power supply voltage.
The big cap near the DC input can be made larger as well (in value) the voltage rating must be at least 25% above the powersupply voltage.

The on-off 'plop' will be louder b.t.w.
The volume pot might 'scratch' the first few seconds after power up.

You can lower the gain by changing the 100k (brown, black, yellow) resistors to 10k and get more travel on the pot.

the elastic bands... try shops where they have materials for sewing.

[Deleted]

I guess it's not possible to filter the top down is it Frans? Too wide a spectrum?

Sometimes limiting the top response makes you 'think' there's more bass. Or at least it's a rounder sound.

I took the top off the K701 and it does sound much more mellow like that, by rolling off the treble earlier. (It also loses that 'ring' up top to some extent)

Another option could be to change to a warm sounding valve amp perhaps?

Believe it or not, the Presonus HP4 amp that I use is 60 ohm out and is also slightly rolled off in the top and it really does help the K701.

[Deleted]

the 500 (just like the 601) doesn't have the peak in the highs the K701 shows.
IMO it doesn't need filtering like the K701 needs.

The BT928 is 47 Ohms out but can be changed to 100 or 120 Ohm at the expense of a few dB headroom.

a valve amp can give the 'illusion' of fuller bass.
It doesn't have more bass in qty (level is actually measurably and arguably exactly the same, i.e. flat) but appears fuller (more prominent) as more harmonics are 'generated' that give bass it's 'feisty feeling'.
Perhaps more like standing closer to the bass speaker (which is turned down a bit) in a live situation while the rest of the band remains equally loud, this might be a more comparable situation.

In a valve amplifier not only the bass is affected in this way but everything.
The 'effect' (due to the spread and amount) of added harmonics is relatively bigger for the lower frequencies than the higher ones.

[Deleted]

I don't have the K500 but I guess my K501 should be quite close in many ways.
They certainly lacks bass extension, that is absolutely undeniable, but it is a fantastic HP comfort wise, IMHO better than the K601 which is technically the better one. Compared to them They are bass lighter but sweeter sounding and incredibly confortable to wear for hours. They are very light and don't put preassure the head with the added benefit of the textile pads that don't heat up the ears (very good for warmer climates). After a few minutes they just disappear and is very easy to forget one is wearing them to the point that many times they have been pulled of my head by the cable as a reminder when walking away from the listening place.

They need a bit more power than the 601 to achive the same dBs but I don't think they deserve the reputation they have of being a b*tch to drive. The CHAmp with 120 Ohm output and minimum gain (5x) makes them sing beautifuly with the vol at 12 o'clock.

For acoustic music or light pop/rock they are great: delicate, smooth and spacious. For electronica/reggae or any other types better look else where, ditto for bassheads .

[Deleted]

Thanks Frans. I'm not really talking about getting more bass, but 'perceiving more bass, which is what valves seem to do quite nicely.

Same trick as I was talking about by reducing the top so in effect, making you turn the amp up a bit and so giving the impression of more bass. (Just eq down the top a little) Not taking out a notch as in the K701.

Javier, I love the K601 to bits. It just seems 'right' to me in terms of bass to treble balance so I'm very curious about the K501. I nearly pulled the trigger on a pair just before they were withdrawn and now I wish I had.

I was looking at them since I have often found that strings (in the orchestra) are not really reproduced at all well in headphones which more often than not are geared towards impressive bass for pop/rock.

In fact, I posted on here concerning string reproduction and Mike instantly steered me to the K501.

I don't particularly care for the K701 and there is a peak that actually annoys me in the top. The K601 is smoother and seems more even to me and bass is most definitely there although I know that some think it doesn't have enough.

The amp is the secret to getting the to sound right imo. I know I've just got this Neco Bossfet thing, but it is actually a good match for the K601 imo. It's not steely sounding and has plenty of punch in the bass too - even on the K601. The Panda is also the same. It makes the K601 sound positively beefy. My Panda is at 120 ohms out and not sure about the Bossfet, but it is similar. It has a Little Pinkie attached as well so there's a good supply behind it.

I wonder what you use to drive the K501 other than the CHAMP? Since it's not widely available, there may be something else with a similar characteristic?

I have a feeling that the Neco Bossfet might do well with it.

[Deleted]

The CHAmp is my only SS amp but Frans' moded G2 (the one I won in his contest) also makes a great match making the 501 sing in their full glory, I did change the output resistors though, from the orginal 30Ω to 120Ω. I had Mick's Neco's on lease for a while a few months back but sincerely I can't remember how well they synergize with the 501, my aural memory isn't that good, sorry.

The 501 are maybe not as balanced as the 601 as it has laid back creamy mids and highs but lacks bottom end even, as Frans said, the little there is at least is "tight".They provide a very relaxed listening experience, great for late night Dire Straits or Neil Young or even classical/jazz. The 501 makes an ideal HP to listen to while, say, reading or doing some DIY.

[dragan]

again, thanks for nice replies! Everyone! I will try all I can to achieve results with these.

OK, what have I been doing for the last 6 hours? Cleaning K 500s.

Took the pads of, soaked them in warm soapy water and let them be for half an hour. In the meantime, found the
-> Service Documentation <-
gave it a quick look and decided to fully disassemble my K500s. Went back to ear pads, and started what could be described as the most disgusting work I have done in... Ever. Cleaning someone else's ear grease is not my cup of tea, I tell you that. Water in which pads were sitting wasn't transparent any more, and that was just from pads sitting there for half an hour. Gave the pads thorough massage to get out as much out as I could, then decided that I need running water. Tap, hot water, soap all around, squeeze, rinse, repeat. 10 times. I've let the pads dry outside in a shade.

Back to the table, and started to disassemble these puppies. K 500 badge goes first (double sticky tape), and theres a small screw underneath. Outside cover snaps of nicely, just as it says in the documentation. After that it a case of 4 small screw and driver goes out.



Covers were also too filthy for my liking, so I decided I need a new tootbrush (which I didn't) and gave those parts a proper clean as well. Dried them as much as I could with lint free cloth, them went to garage to blast them with compressed air. Dried few spots of remaining water, and this was the result:


drivers were dusty or dandruffy (or both):



so I got my finest lens brush, and gave them a clean as well.

Now it was time to put everything back together, and straight away I spotted that I managed to break of red wire from the right driver. To put it back as it was, it took me good 3/4 of an hour. Very fiddly, hard to get the phones standing firmly, in a position good for nice access. Done that, checked the sound and finished the rest of the job. Did not want to glue the K·500 badge as I still have to take them apart at least one time - to change elastics. Good call, as I think that I did not put all the cables from the left side as they should sit. Sounds that something is shaking inside in some songs.

Right. That's about it for now, I am of to the fridge, as I have not eaten anything today.

Oh, yes. One last shot for everyone reading and contributing:


AKG K 500, my new toy by Dragan Radovic, on Flickr


Cheers!

[funk1969]

My offer still stands ;-). I told you it was a gem of a headphone...

[dragan]

^ you are not the first one to offer Lets see how I like them in a month or so. Anyways, I could not sell these before I get them to the condition I consider "presentable".

Guy who sold these to me actually stole photographs of K500s that were sold 2 years ago on Head Fi by member with 'gores' as a nick - nice fellow, Polish. His K500s went to Australia.

After I asked the guy who sold me my pair if it's a coincidence or something else, he told me: "They looked exactly the same, same colour of ear pads and everything, so I took those photos". Some cheek.

They are CLEAN now, only elastics to replace. Gonna look into that today.

[Deleted]

Dragan, I replaced the elastics on my 501 one year ago. I got the from the Spanish official AKG importer at 1.56€ each, bl*ody rip off if you ask me. I also replaced the headband, the pads and even had to buy the whole wire frame because one of the elastics end stops had broken and they don't sell them single. For the paid price I could have purchased some nice new HPs but the 501 have been over 15 years with me an they are defintive keepers.

[UzminiNu]

I recommend to change the worn off ear pads to shiny new ones. They not expensive. They add much more space for your ears. And the fit will be much more tighter.